Redemption: The Big Picture

[Arial]

See post 37.

I didn't hijack your thread...I enhanced it. I educated you.

It was like reading a book on mythology (which is where your "education" came from.

 

[CrowCross]

It was the beginning of a war in which Satan is fighting for his life so he can be God. There is nothing in Scripture that says he is fighting to have dominion over the earth.

Verses were already presented...see post 21. You must have missed it.

 

[Arial]

It makes no sense that the sons of God were human in this instance....why would humans see the human women as attractive? Weren't they marrying and having children since Eve children were having babies?

Well, if the "sons of God" are those humans who belong to God, and "men" are those in the line of Cain---not chosen by God, then we have intermarriage between the godly and the ungodly. Ever heard the expression one bad apple spoils the bushel? Or how about a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

Where do we see those who belong to God called sons/children of God?
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.


John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
1 John3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are.
Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spriit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
2 Cor 6:18 And, "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

It is far more trustworthy to go by what the Bible says, even if one cannot fully understand it, rather than to try and gain supposed understanding from someplace that God had declared "Not his word" by excluding it from his word. Such as the Book of Enoch.

The bible says.... 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

1) If the verse meant humans only it would have read like this.... 2 the sons man saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
Or,
2 ) why not like this.... 2 the sons of Cain saw that the daughters of Seth were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

What if and why not? You might consider that the original hearers knew exactly what was meant, and that is who it was given to. The fact that centuries later people began to have trouble and felt the need to speculate about it is irrelevant. I could just as easil say, "If it meant fallen angels procreated with human women and produced giants", it would have said, "Fallen angels saw that the daughters of men were desirable and had sex with them and the combination of the DNA produced giants."

However. That passage becomes spurious evidence for your view because it ignores the statement that angels do not marry (therefore do not procreate). And it ignores the design of like producing like.

Of course those two human to human relationship doesn't explain why they would have produced the Nephilim (giants). How did those sexual relationships cause a genetic change that produce the Nephilim?

You're right. It doesn't explain it. It just said that it did. In the account of Jacob and Labin and the spotted goats. Remember? It does not explain the science of the genetics either. It just says, "If you do this, that will happen." Why do you think God has to explain every thing to you in order for it to not be open to wild speculation and imagination. "Just believe!"

It's obvious that the "sons of God" are the angels referred to in the book of Job.
Even the ancient book of Enoch...the seventh from Adam...talked about it, or said this way....supports scripture.

That doesn't mean that it was used that way in Gen 6. Just because Enoch said that it did, and just because he was the seventh from Adam does not lend it authority. If he even wrote it. Here is something for your education.

Why Is the Book of Enoch Not in the Bible?

 

[Josheb]

Speaking o wild imaginings, in addition to bringing the interpretation into the Bible from a source that was excluded from the Protestant Bible (the Book of Enoch); I am reminded in these imaginings of various fairy tales and perhaps too much immersion in graphic novels and comic books, of superheroes opposing villains.

Well, to be fair to @CrowCross. I've read the apocryphal writings and the pseudepigraphic ones. They're interesting. You're correct: they do not qualify as scripture and should not be treated as equal to scripture, nor as veracious measures of scripture. All of those practices demonstrate failure in both understanding scripture and how it should be used (content and method). In Crow's case, however, this is all diversionary. He was asked a few questions many posts ago and still has yet to answer them. Instead, there's now a rabbit trail about giants and the matter of redemption's "big picture" is long gone with him . That's sop with him .

@Arial and @Josheb....it pretty much sounds like you deny that the bible speaks of giants. Am I correct in that assumption?

Nonsense. If scripture states giants existed then giants existed. The point of dispute is singular: Genesis 6:1 does not state fallen angels had sex with human females and that verse cannot be made to say such a thing without contradicting a host of other texts. Scripture is the measure of Enoch, not Enoch the measure of scripture. The phrase "sons of God" is used of both angels and humans, but never fallen angels. God's word explicitly states each creature breeds after its own kind. You have not addressed any of these facts. What you've done is make a bogus comment about our seeming to deny the Bible "speaking of" giants.

We're still waiting on you to answer questions you were asked many posts ago!

1. Is how Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts God wanting humans subduing the earth subdued and ruling over it understood?
2. Would you please show me the verse that states Satan wants to rule the world?
3. Would you please demonstrate that with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis the following assertions: "Through this system of proxy much like how one country controls another through proxy...Satan continues to rule and have dominion over the earth "Legally". Satan controls the higher echelon of man. Those in power. Legally through man Satan rules over the earth by proxy"?
4. Would you please provide the scripture stating Satan tried to control the world by proxy?

The hog washed misinterpretation of Genesis 6:1-3 managed to buy some time away from answering those questions but neither of us has forgotten. God has a plan of redemption and all of creation conspires to effect that plan simply because it can do nothing other than comply with its Creator. Even if this purported satanic proxy existed it would only serve the Creator's plan of redemption. The facts Satan is a minion and nothing more. Christians, in contrast, are indwelt with the Spirit of almighty God and thereby no longer sinfully dead and enslaved minions. Satan flees from our presence when we what we've been called to do: Be redemptive agents of The Redeemer.


Now, would you please answer those four questions above. I'd prefer it if you started with #3 since that's of interest to both @Arial and me, but you start with whichever one you like. No more talk of giants, please, until the outstanding matters have been addressed.

 

[Josheb]

What you fail to realize is that the giants (Rephaim) came from somewhere.

What you also fail to realize is that Gen 6 explains where and how.

I do not fail to realize anything.

Oh, BTW....I never said demons crossbreed with humans. In your form of deception...you presented it as if I did. I consider that as lying.

You said fallen angles married human females. Fallen angels are demons. They are also called "unclean spirits," and "evil spirits." You may not have used the word "demon," but you did, in fact, argue demons crossbred with humans.

Do you not know that demons are fallen angels and fallen angels are demons?

 

[Josheb]

Yes it does.

The thread is about REDEMPTION....and I demonstrated it came in defeating Satan at the cross...and the REDEMPTION of mans dominion that has been taken by Satan by proxy.

Gen 6 was the beginning of the seed war where the fallen angels had offspring...the giants...who ruled the earth at the time of the flood as 1/2 men...working as a proxy for Satan.
Currently this proxy is still in effect. At the second coming at the end of the 7 year tribulation Jesus returns and removes the proxy providing REDEMPTION.

Did you just say redemption has been taken by Satan?

 

[makesends]

The bible explain the origination of giants in Gen 6.....you deny it....so, where do you say the giants came from?
Perhaps the had a crispr/cas9 genome editing kit back then.

In my heritage are blood relatives that have 6 fingers. Does that make me an offspring of demons? I had a guy on my construction crew named Tiny, who could nail up soffit and fascia on the eaves of houses without a ladder; he was the smallest of his brothers —only a little over 7 foot tall. Are they offspring of demons?

There are genetically very tall people in this world. Big deal (no pun intended). For all I know, there were 15 foot tall giants in (yes, I made this word up but I like it) tabloidic tribes in the past and wars between them and nomadic people, and they mostly got wiped out.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, if the "sons of God" are those humans who belong to God, and "men" are those in the line of Cain---not chosen by God, then we have intermarriage between the godly and the ungodly. Ever heard the expression one bad apple spoils the bushel? Or how about a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

Where do we see those who belong to God called sons/children of God?
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.


John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
1 John3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are.
Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spriit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
2 Cor 6:18 And, "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

It is far more trustworthy to go by what the Bible says, even if one cannot fully understand it, rather than to try and gain supposed understanding from someplace that God had declared "Not his word" by excluding it from his word. Such as the Book of Enoch.

What if and why not? You might consider that the original hearers knew exactly what was meant, and that is who it was given to. The fact that centuries later people began to have trouble and felt the need to speculate about it is irrelevant. I could just as easil say, "If it meant fallen angels procreated with human women and produced giants", it would have said, "Fallen angels saw that the daughters of men were desirable and had sex with them and the combination of the DNA produced giants."

However. That passage becomes spurious evidence for your view because it ignores the statement that angels do not marry (therefore do not procreate). And it ignores the design of like producing like.

You're right. It doesn't explain it. It just said that it did. In the account of Jacob and Labin and the spotted goats. Remember? It does not explain the science of the genetics either. It just says, "If you do this, that will happen." Why do you think God has to explain every thing to you in order for it to not be open to wild speculation and imagination. "Just believe!"

That doesn't mean that it was used that way in Gen 6. Just because Enoch said that it did, and just because he was the seventh from Adam does not lend it authority. If he even wrote it. Here is something for your education.

Why Is the Book of Enoch Not in the Bible?

With all due respect you're speculating and not using what the bible provides us with.

Sorry, I'm not buying your "quess".

Comparing spotted goat genetics with giant genetics...well, quite a stretch. You for somereason want to dismiss the obvious...Angels and humans had relations...just like the bible says. Just like Enoch says.

Oh, it doesn't matter if angels don't marry in heaven...remember they were bad-boys...they were no longer in heaven.

 

[CrowCross]

Did you just say redemption has been taken by Satan?

no

 

[CrowCross]

Fallen angels are demons.

Prove that with the bible....you need an explicit quote.

 

[CrowCross]

Now, would you please answer those four questions above.

You're questions about Dispensational Premillennialism are off topic.
The other questions have been answered. Go back and look. I'm not gonna dig it out for you.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you not know that demons are fallen angels and fallen angels are demons?

Chapter and verse please......or else present it as an unsupported theory.

 

[CrowCross]

In my heritage are blood relatives that have 6 fingers. Does that make me an offspring of demons? I had a guy on my construction crew named Tiny, who could nail up soffit and fascia on the eaves of houses without a ladder; he was the smallest of his brothers —only a little over 7 foot tall. Are they offspring of demons?

There are genetically very tall people in this world. Big deal (no pun intended). For all I know, there were 15 foot tall giants in (yes, I made this word up but I like it) tabloidic tribes in the past and wars between them and nomadic people, and they mostly got wiped out.

As I posted earlier...I guess you missed it..
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.

Duet 3:11 (For only Og king of Bashan had remained of the remnant of the Rephaim. His bed of iron, nine cubits long and four cubits wide, is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)

Yes, there were Giants....a bit bigger than your 7 foot tall soffet nailer. He would have had plenty of room in the 13.5 foot long bed mentioned above.

Q....do you deny giants are mentioned in the bible?

 

[makesends]

As I posted earlier...I guess you missed it..
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.

Duet 3:11 (For only Og king of Bashan had remained of the remnant of the Rephaim. His bed of iron, nine cubits long and four cubits wide, is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)

Yes, there were Giants....a bit bigger than your 7 foot tall soffet nailer. He would have had plenty of room in the 13.5 foot long bed mentioned above.

Q....do you deny giants are mentioned in the bible?

No, I didn't miss it.

For crying out loud! For all I know there are 15 foot giants still alive today, that don't want to be publicly advertised! Of course I know there were giants! Why do you keep asking that silly question? The Bible says there were, so, obviously, there were.

What I deny is proof that they are/were the result of angels marrying humans.

 

[CrowCross]

No, I didn't miss it.

For crying out loud! For all I know there are 15 foot giants still alive today, that don't want to be publicly advertised! Of course I know there were giants! Why do you keep asking that silly question? The Bible says there were, so, obviously, there were.

What I deny is proof that they are/were the result of angels marrying humans.

Well, Moses in Gen 6 pretty much quoted Enoch.
Jude also quoted from the book of Enoch.

If Moses was wrong in his quote....where did the Nephilim come from?