Redemption: The Big Picture

[Arial]

It is quite natural for a person when they first come to Christ in faith, to see redemption solely from a human perspective, and in a narrow sense. By narrow and human, I mean the joy is at first limited to "I am saved and will go to heaven when I die." or "I now won't go to hell".

That is so glorious and fills our hearts with love and gratitude for the One who suffered and died on the cross in order to make this so, that it is easy to get stuck there, thinking that is all there is to the great drama of redemption that flows through every page of the Bible and begins in Genesis. It is enough (and it truly is). But there is so much more. A much bigger picture, that when looked at, pondered, grasped, lets us begin to see the glory of God, and God himself, in a way that can knock our socks off. Other things in the scriptures become clearer. It is as though a curtain were pulled back, or a door opened, a "I had heard of you, but now I see you--" moment, that prods us eagerly forward to see and know more of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is not heaven that is our home. It is earth.

In Gen 1-2:24 God creates earth and all that is in it. Preparing a place for what he does on the sixth day Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This is our identity (made in his image and likeness) and our mandate to rule and care for the earth according to that image. God as King of the earth and our King. Mankind his subjects and servants.

Gen 2 is not a separate creation account. Gen 1 records the sequence of creation. Gen 2 focuses on the sixth day, the creation of man as the high point of creation.

Gen 3 relates the fall of Adam and Eve and its result, not only of humanity becoming sinners, alienated from God and at enmity with him (Isa 59:2; Romans 3:11-19) but to all of creation. They are cast out of the Garden of Eden, have no access to the Tree of Life. All of creation bears the curse of God on sin.

But in Gen 3:14-15 there is a promise made. So, the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

From that point forward we see the plan of redemption through this offspring (seed) unfold. With that in mind, let's jump ahead to the middle of the drama.

The angel Gabriel comes to speak with a virgin betrothed to Joseph, by the name of Mary. He tells her she will conceive and bear a son and call his name Jesus. When Mary asked how that could be as she was a virgin he answers, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the child to be born will be called holy- the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).

Luke 2:8-11 And it the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpents head was born.

In all four Gospels the crucifixion of Jesus is given in fulfillment of Isa, 53. His heel was bruised but his victory was in is death. He crushed the serpents head in his resurrection and secured the future resurrection to eternal life of all believers.

Now we will jump ahead to the end of the drama.

Isa 11:1-5 speaks of Jesus and the historical account of redemption that is spoken of and typified in all the OT. In 6-9 we are given the end result.

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Rev 21:1-6 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also, he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment."

Let's solidify this with verses from Romans 8:19-25 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for the adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope, we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Earth and God dwelling with us is our home. Our home is being restored. The astonishing thing is, that Christ does this by redeeming mankind, and in doing that, defeating the serpent who deceives and destroys and brings death, and destroying him forever. All for the glory of God.

 

[Josheb]

It is quite natural for a person when they first come to Christ in faith, to see redemption solely from a human perspective, and in a narrow sense. By narrow and human, I mean the joy is at first limited to "I am saved and will go to heaven when I die." or "I now won't go to hell".

That is so glorious and fills our hearts with love and gratitude for the One who suffered and died on the cross in order to make this so, that it is easy to get stuck there, thinking that is all there is to the great drama of redemption that flows through every page of the Bible and begins in Genesis. It is enough (and it truly is). But there is so much more. A much bigger picture, that when looked at, pondered, grasped, let's us begin to see the glory of God, and God himself, in a way that can knock our socks off. Other things in the scriptures become clearer. It is as though a curtain were pulled back, or a door opened, a "I had heard of you, but now I see you--" moment, that prods us eagerly forward to see and know more of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is not heaven that is our home. It is earth.

In Gen 1-2:24 God creates earth and all that is in it. Preparing a place for what he does on the sixth day Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This is our identity (made in his image and likeness) and our mandate to rule and care for the earth according to that image. God as King of the earth and our King. Mankind his subjects and servants.

Gen 2 is not a separate creation account. Gen 1 records the sequence of creation. Gen 2 focuses on the sixth day, the creation of man as the high point of creation.

Gen 3 relates the fall of Adam and Eve and its result, not only of humanity becoming sinners, alienated from God and at enmity with him (Isa 59:2; Romans 3:11-19) but to all of creation. They are cast out of the Garden of Eden, have no access to the Tree of Life. All of creation bears the curse of God on sin.

But is Gen 3:14-15 there is a promise made. So, the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

From that point forward we see the plan of redemption through this offspring (seed)unfold. With that in mind, let's jump ahead to the middle of the drama.

The angel Gabriel comes to speak with a virgin betrothed to Joseph, by the name of Mary. He tells her she will conceive and bare a son and call his name Jesus. When Mary asked how that could be as she was a virgin he answers, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the child to be born will be called holy- the Son of God." (Luke 1:35).

Luke 2:8-11 And it the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpents head was born.

In all four Gospels the crucifixion of Jesus is given in fulfillment of Isa, 53. His heel was bruised but his victory was in is death. He crushed the serpents head in his resurrection and secured the future resurrection to eternal life of all believers.

Now we will jump ahead to the end of the drama.

Isa 11:1-5 speaks of Jesus and the historical account of redemption that is spoken of and typified in all the OT. In 6-9 we are given the end result.

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall like down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Rev 21:1-6 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also, he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment."

Let's solidify this with verses from Romans 8:19-25 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for the adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope, we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Earth and God dwelling with us is our home. Our home is being restored. The astonishing thing is, that Christ does this by redeeming mankind, and in doing that, defeating the serpent who deceives and destroys and brings death, and destroying him forever. All for the glory of God.

This is good and I am encouraged to read you affirm God's value of the earth. I have always taken a different view, or a view seemingly different than a lot of teaching I've heard in my 40+ years as a believer. From the first time I read Genesis 1:1 I began to think there is a reason that verse, the Bible as a whole, starts out with a statement dividing the heavens and the earth. The division(s) is/are described in different ways (did you know there's a ladder! between the heavens and the earth and angels are going back and forth on it all the time? ) lol I likewise think it critically important that the Bible concludes with the heavens and earth meeting. So... I've long thought part of the original plan was always to bring the earth into concert with the heavens. After all, how much fun is a throne without a footstool? It doesn't make sense that the resurrected would never again venture to earth, even once its restored. Neither does it make sense that God wants His earth (or perhaps it's the "His" that should be emphasized) corrupted, left to rot, and have it taken over by sin and sinners. We've got a large swath of Christians looking forward to the earth almost literally going to hell in a handbasket and thinking that's what God wants! It's insane.

I'm glad you understand something of sovereignty here and now. The eager expectation of creation is for the sons (and daughters ) of God to be revealed. That word "creation" includes the earth.

 

[Arial]

This is good and I am encouraged to read you affirm God's value of the earth. I have always taken a different view, or a view seemingly different than a lot of teaching I've heard in my 40+ years as a believer. From the first time I read Genesis 1:1 I began to think there is a reason that verse, the Bible as a whole, starts out with a statement dividing the heavens and the earth. The division(s) is/are described in different ways (did you know there's a ladder! between the heavens and the earth and angels are going back and forth on it all the time? ) lol I likewise think it critically important that the Bible concludes with the heavens and earth meeting. So... I've long thought part of the original plan was always to bring the earth into concert with the heavens. After all, how much fun is a throne without a footstool? It doesn't make sense that the resurrected would never again venture to earth, even once its restored. Neither does it make sense that God wants His earth (or perhaps it's the "His" that should be emphasized) corrupted, left to rot, and have it taken over by sin and sinners. We've got a large swath of Christians looking forward to the earth almost literally going to hell in a handbasket and thinking that's what God wants! It's insane.

I'm glad you understand something of sovereignty here and now. The eager expectation of creation is for the sons (and daughters ) of God to be revealed. That word "creation" includes the earth.

It is good to know that somebody besides me sees it that way. I have mentioned it so many times in passing in the midst of other conversations, and every time it has been skipped over; I thought maybe I was way off base or something. Even here, with a whole thread about it had 36 views, one like (you) and one comment (you).

The Bible tells us that all things were created by Jesus, the very one who came from the Father (was sent by him) to redeem fallen humanity. It also says all things are for him. And it tells us in Eph 1: 7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purposed, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unit all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.

How self-centered we are! It is for the glory of the Son! In redeeming those God is giving him with his own life and blood, he is gathering a people to populate his kingdom and destroying the destroyer who trampled on his creation. What a victory. "I have set my King on Zion."

 

[makesends]

It is good to know that somebody besides me sees it that way. I have mentioned it so many times in passing in the midst of other conversations, and every time it has been skipped over; I thought maybe I was way off base or something. Even here, with a whole thread about it had 36 views, one like (you) and one comment (you).

This is my first time seeing this thread, and I don't have time to study it, so don't think everyone is poo-pooing it. (Somebody today told me I'm somebody, so I'm going with that to encourage you )

 

[Josheb]

It is good to know that somebody besides me sees it that way. I have mentioned it so many times in passing in the midst of other conversations, and every time it has been skipped over; I thought maybe I was way off base or something. Even here, with a whole thread about it had 36 views, one like (you) and one comment (you).

The Bible tells us that all things were created by Jesus, the very one who came from the Father (was sent by him) to redeem fallen humanity. It also says all things are for him. And it tells us in Eph 1: 7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purposed, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unit all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in him.

How self-centered we are! It is for the glory of the Son! In redeeming those God is giving him with his own life and blood, he is gathering a people to populate his kingdom and destroying the destroyer who trampled on his creation. What a victory. "I have set my King on Zion."

I'm influenced by the first command God uttered, the "great commission," and the dominionists and postmils. Not like the Seven Mountainists or the Reconstructionists, though. Just a simple understanding God, from the beginning, wanted the earth subdued and ruled and that assignment was given to humans, not any other created creature. This begs the question, "Why give such a command if You are just going to destroy the whole thing when we do?" That doesn't make any sense. Whether we're talking about the physical planet, the worldly system of operation, or the matter of spiritual vitality versus desolation the directive from God is all always the same: Be overcomers.

I do not have to conquer the entire planet. Just the small portion He brings my way when I step out of bed each day. If He, in His infinite wisdom and grace happens to have me visit the White House or the Kremlin then I will do my best to the best of His inspiration and enabling. That has yet to happen. Right now I'm on my way to conquer part of Home Depot and the traffic in between home and there .

You know, because traffic....

​

.

 

[CrowCross]

Redemption: The Big Picture​

@Arial

Besides redemption I think there is also some sort of dominion over earth problem that has to be dealt with.

Humans and only humans can have dominion over earth...legally. Can I find that in the bible? Sort of.
In Gen 1:28 the verse contains....fill the earth and subdue it; rule over...

Satan wants to rule earth but God said only "man" can rule earth. Earth was created for man. Earth wasn't created for the angels to rule over.
Satan as a serpent wanting rule deceived Adam and Eve and caused the fall.

Enter the seed war...Part of Gen 3: 15 mentions it....
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.
Satan began the seed war with the hopes of mixing "fallen" angel DNA with human DNA (Gen 6) with the plan of the offspring being human enough to take over the dominion of earth and rule it in a form of proxy for Satan. That worked until the flood wiped out that seed...but...the seed continued after the flood. (there are several theories how this happened after the flood) God then used Israel to wipe out that seed but there are still some mixed seed living amongst us and rule as Satans proxy.
Through this system of proxy much like how one country controls another through proxy...Satan continues to rule and have dominion over the earth"Legally". Satan controls the higher echelon of man. Those in power. Legally through man Satan rules over the earth by proxy.

Through the redemption plan of God, God provided salvation for the fallen humans through His Son Jesus. Jesus was born (Mary's seed) fully God and fully human. Only God who is eternal could provide the sacrifice for sin and redeem mankind of our eternal wages which are death as man doesn't have the eternal "worth". That was settled on the cross.

The next part of the story continues with a plan to restore dominion over earth. Though the bible pretty much is about the restoration of mankind to salvation....that is living eternally in the presence of God...Only a man could legally have dominion over earth. Angels can't have dominion, little green men can't have dominion, nor can the seed of Satan have dominion. Only man can as God gave man the rights to dominion of earth.

If Jesus came as fully God and wasn't also a man (in a sense even God doesn't have the legal right.) He couldn't legally have dominion as only a man can.
Jesus came as fully man and fully God...
At the end of this age this man Jesus...the seed of Mary spoken about way back in Genesis has been prophesied to come and conquer as per Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7:10 and restore dominion to man eliminating Satan and the proxies. The seed war will then be over...won by the man Jesus who has legal rights.

Mankind is redeemed and dominion restored to the legal heirs.

 

[CrowCross]

Just a simple understanding God, from the beginning, wanted the earth subdued and ruled and that assignment was given to humans, not any other created creature.

I agree.
i was still typing in my thoughts when you posted your response.

 

[Josheb]

Redemption: The Big Picture​

@Arial

Besides redemption I think there is also some sort of dominion over earth problem that has to be dealt with.....................................



Jesus came as fully man and fully God...
At the end of this age this man Jesus...the seed of Mary spoken about way back in Genesis has been prophesied to come and conquer as per Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7:10 and restore dominion to man eliminating Satan and the proxies. The seed war will then be over...won by the man Jesus who has legal rights.

Mankind is redeemed and dominion restored to the legal heirs.

In Dispensational Premillennialism that happens only after Jesus physical earthly reign has failed.

Just a simple understanding God, from the beginning, wanted the earth subdued and ruled and that assignment was given to humans, not any other created creature.

I agree.
i was still typing in my thoughts when you posted your response.

Do you understand hos Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts what I posted (and the agreement thereof)?

 

[Josheb]

nt

 

[CrowCross]

In Dispensational Premillennialism that happens only after Jesus physical earthly reign has failed.

Do you understand hos Dispensational Premillennialism contradicts what I posted (and the agreement thereof)?

With all due respect your post is NWRT.

All you want to do is argue about Dispensational Premillennialism. Which by the way is way off topic.

 

[Arial]

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.
Satan began the seed war with the hopes of mixing "fallen" angel DNA with human DNA (Gen 6) with the plan of the offspring being human enough to take over the dominion of earth and rule it in a form of proxy for Satan. That worked until the flood wiped out that seed...but...the seed continued after the flood. (there are several theories how this happened after the flood) God then used Israel to wipe out that seed but there are still some mixed seed living amongst us and rule as Satans proxy.

Where in the world do you get those ideas from? Not Gen 6 as you suggest. Every bit of it is speculation read into the word and that is a no, no. It is utter nonsense, since the word tells us exactly who God created earth for, and exactly what his mandate was. To have dominion over the earth. It wasn't the serpent who fell at creation. He was already fallen. It was man. And he still has the mandate to rule the earth and have dominion over it (and that means care for it). He did not lose the mandate, he just failed to do his job right---because he became a sinner. And it was God who subjected the creation to futility because of it. Not the serpent. There was no need to mix fallen angel DNA with human DNA and you have nothing on which to base that claim in the Bible. And if it is not in the Bible, it is not God's word, and it doesn't count. Really CrowCross, I am surprised.

Through this system of proxy much like how one country controls another through proxy...Satan continues to rule and have dominion over the earth"Legally". Satan controls the higher echelon of man. Those in power. Legally through man Satan rules over the earth by proxy.

Would you please demonstrate that with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis.

If Jesus came as fully God and wasn't also a man (in a sense even God doesn't have the legal right.) He couldn't legally have dominion as only a man can.

Now, go back to the thread on keeping our doctrine consistent with the doctrine off God, and see how many places you failed to do that in the above statement.

Mankind is redeemed and dominion restored to the legal heirs.

Very humanistic. God is the "legal" heir of everything. Man's being given the responsibility for earth and relationships, is a command, not a right. It was to be done as God's image bearers. Adam failed. All humans after him failed. That is what sin is. Missing the mark of the image they were created with.

 

[Josheb]

With all due respect your post is NWRT.

All you want to do is argue about Dispensational Premillennialism. Which by the way is way off topic.

That's not an answer to my question. You support the op's position on redemption in this thread, but elsewhere post content that is inconsistent with that support. One of the reasons @Arial posts these recent ops on historical redemption is to correct a lot of misguided theology (and she can correct me if I have that wrong). You can label my post any way you like but that does not change the fact...

• DPism removes Christians from the earth before the earth is restored and that directly contradict what Arial and I have been saying. We cannot subdue the earth if we're not here. We cannot rule over the earth if we're not here on the earth. The separated rapture position you argue all over the forum directly contradicts the premise of Christians having dominion.
• DPism says Jesus will physically live on earth and physically rule here for a literal 1000 years and then a rebellion will occur. Whether admitted or not, that's not an less reign. Whether acknowledged or not, that's not a successful reign, either. Jesus does not rule forever and his regin is not successful because it ends with a huge rebellion.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read the op because the op and Dispensational Premillennialism are wholly incompatible. My broaching the matter is not off-topic (and if you think so then report the post).

Humans and only humans can have dominion over earth...legally. Can I find that in the bible? Sort of.
In Gen 1:28 the verse contains....fill the earth and subdue it; rule over...

Why then does God remove Christians from the planet if they are the only ones that can have dominion. By removing the Christians God has left all the evildoers to have dominion. They are not going to rid the earth of desolation (which was its state in Genesis 1 when God uttered the dominion mandate).

Satan wants to rule earth but God said only "man" can rule earth. Earth was created for man. Earth wasn't created for the angels to rule over.
Satan as a serpent wanting rule deceived Adam and Eve and caused the fall.

Please provide the verse stating Satan wanted to rule the earth.

At the end of this age this man Jesus...the seed of Mary spoken about way back in Genesis has been prophesied to come and conquer as per Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7:10 and restore dominion to man eliminating Satan and the proxies. The seed war will then be over...won by the man Jesus who has legal rights.

Mankind is redeemed and dominion restored to the legal heirs.

It is the men of God who are to have dominion. If God wanted Jesus to have dominion, he did not need to create Adam and Eve. The facts of DPism are that Jesus does not restore dominion during the millennial reign. The reign ends with rebellion. A huge war is ought afterwards! A huge war is fought afterwards and the Christians, according to DPism, have all been removed from the planet. The only Christians on the earth at that time, according to DPism, are those that converted to Christ during the millennial reign (and the only remote reference to them in Rev. 20 is that they lost their heads ).

@Arial is definitely not asserting that perspective (and she can correct me if I have that incorrectly). She has asked you bluntly,

Where in the world do you get those ideas from?

We already know the answer to that question because of the prolific assertion of modern futurism.

 

[Josheb]

Would you please demonstrate that with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis.

I cannot wait to see that happen. I look forward to the attempt.

 

[CrowCross]

There was no need to mix fallen angel DNA with human DNA and you have nothing on which to base that claim in the Bible.

If you say so.

Would you please demonstrate that with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis.

I look at reality.

Very humanistic. God is the "legal" heir of everything. Man's being given the responsibility for earth and relationships, is a command, not a right. It was to be done as God's image bearers. Adam failed. All humans after him failed. That is what sin is. Missing the mark of the image they were created with.

{edit: personal insult}

 

[CrowCross]

DPism removes Christians from the earth before the earth is restored and that directly contradict what Arial and I have been saying.

Well, you're wrong. But I'm not ging to debate you in this thread. Please stay on topic.

 

[Arial]

If you say so.

I look at reality.

{edit: personal insult}

Mod Hat: this post is completely unresponsive. There is no excuse to start an argument in a thread. Simply respond to the content of a post or don't respond at all.

 

[Arial]

I cannot wait to see that happen. I look forward to the attempt.

The response was "I look at reality." I have no idea what that means or what it has to do with the request to provide scriptural evidence for a claim that was made. I thought that was what the forum was all about. Christ Centered Apologetics!

 

[CrowCross]

Where in the world do you get those ideas from? Not Gen 6 as you suggest.

I'm thinking you need to educate yourself...Gen 6 is about the fallen angels...called watchers...who had offspring with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim. part angels and part human.

Every bit of it is speculation read into the word and that is a no, no. It is utter nonsense, since the word tells us exactly who God created earth for, and exactly what his mandate was. To have dominion over the earth.

As I expressed. Satan has tried to take that dominion away from us via proxy.

It wasn't the serpent who fell at creation. He was already fallen. It was man.

True.

And he still has the mandate to rule the earth and have dominion over it (and that means care for it).

Man will always have that mandate. That's one of the reasons why Satan tried with hybrids. Satan was doing well
Gen 6 tells us....5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. You seem to be claiming Satan had no part in the wickedness.

He did not lose the mandate, he just failed to do his job right---because he became a sinner. And it was God who subjected the creation to futility because of it. Not the serpent.

I never said man lost the mandate. All I said is that Satan tried to control earth via proxy.

There was no need to mix fallen angel DNA with human DNA and you have nothing on which to base that claim in the Bible.

Thats incorrect....and because of your lack of knowledge I replied back with....If you say so.

And if it is not in the Bible, it is not God's word, and it doesn't count. Really CrowCross, I am surprised.

It is in the bible...read Gen six.

Would you please demonstrate that with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis.

That's pretty simple to do. The sons of God are not Cains linage nor are the Seths.
Exeresis shows the sons of God are angels....
Job 1:6 tells us....Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The sons of God were not human.
In Job 38:7 we also read......while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Once again the sons of God mentoned were not human as humans didn't exist when God was making the earth.

The exegesis of scriptur tells us who they were...and these same sons of God are seen again in Gen 6:2..... 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

Now, go back to the thread on keeping our doctrine consistent with the doctrine off God, and see how many places you failed to do that in the above statement.

As you. have just read above...I have kept it bibliclal.

Your problem was you simply nay-sayed. You provided absolutly NO biblical exegesis.

Very humanistic.

What???? Once again you FAILED to explain yourself.

God is the "legal" heir of everything. Man's being given the responsibility for earth and relationships, is a command, not a right. It was to be done as God's image bearers. Adam failed. All humans after him failed. That is what sin is. Missing the mark of the image they were created with.

As I have said...man did fail...Satan is trying to control earth via proxy.

As I have said....I look at reality.
When I said "If you say so."...that because all you did was nay-say with out a proper biblical response.

 

[Josheb]

I look at reality.

This discussion is not about you.

Well, you're wrong.

Prove it.

But I'm not ging to debate you in this thread.

That's okay. I can continue the discussion of redemptive history without your participation and present a case for the op and against its current main competitor Dispensationalism.

Please stay on topic.

Watch me. You stay on topic, too, telling people to get educated is not on topic and fallen angels did not have offspring with human females. That's just dumb. @Arial and I are still waiting for you to demonstrate with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis that Satan rules the world through by proxy. And I am still waiting you to provide the verse stating Satan wanted to rule the earth.

 

[Josheb]

I never said man lost the mandate. All I said is that Satan tried to control earth via proxy.

Got scripture for that?

Satan began the seed war with the hopes of mixing "fallen" angel DNA with human DNA (Gen 6) with the plan of the offspring being human enough to take over the dominion of earth and rule it in a form of proxy for Satan. That worked until the flood wiped out that seed...but...the seed continued after the flood. (there are several theories how this happened after the flood) God then used Israel to wipe out that seed but there are still some mixed seed living amongst us and rule as Satans proxy.

Got scripture for that? Gen. 6 does not say any of that.

It is in the bible...read Gen six.

No, it's not.

That's pretty simple to do. The sons of God are not Cains linage nor are the Seths.

Yes, they are. "Sons of God is a common identifier for both angels and humans.... who follow God! It is never used for those not following God. Fallen angels would not be included in any group called sons of God. Furthermore, Jesus described how in heaven the angels do not marry. Nether are angels and humans of the same species. How then could the two copulate and produce progeny?

Exeresis shows the sons of God are angels....
Job 1:6 tells us....Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The sons of God were not human.
In Job 38:7 we also read......while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Once again the sons of God mentoned were not human as humans didn't exist when God was making the earth.

Adam is called a son of God in Luke 3:38 . Israel is called God's son in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. Humans are called sons of God in Psalm 82. Scripture uses the label to describe both angels and humans, but only humans and angels that follow God, never fallen angels as you suppose. In Job 1:6 the sons of God presented themselves AND satan also. Satan is not included among the sons of God. His mention is separate from the sons of God.

The exegesis of scriptur tells us who they were...and these same sons of God are seen again in Gen 6:2..... 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

No, you have misidentified the sons of God in Gen. 6. Genesis 4 states men began to follow God and these men began to marry and have sex with humans who were not following God, the daughters of men. Interfaith marriage was prohibited by God. He eventually codified it in the Law. This was the reasons the Samaritans were reviled (they'd intermarried with those of other religions). Intermarriage adulterates the faith because spouses have torn allegiances. That is what the opening of Gen 6 is about, NOT fallen angels copulating with humans.

As you. have just read above...I have kept it biblical.

The evidence proves otherwise. You've assumed the words "sons of God references fallen angels and it does not. That's not biblical. It's an invention of eisegetic interpretation.

As I have said...man did fail...Satan is trying to control earth via proxy.

Saying it does not make it true. For all we know Satan just wanted some company in sin, some company on his way to the fiery lake. Post the verse that states he was trying to take over the world, please.

As I have said....I look at reality.

Again, the evidence proves otherwise.


Adam and Eve disobeyed God and became dead in sin. If the tradition of Lucifer leading a rebellion against God and having all his glory stripped from him to become Satan is true, then Satan had already gone through the same experience. He was dead in sin and enslaved to it. All the many things scripture states about the effects of sin apply to him. His thinking is futile, his heart darkened and he's been given over to his lusts. He is always and everywhere a liar. The premise he wants to rule the earth is dubious, especially in light of the fact he tried to rule everything. Why settle for the earth when both the heavens and the earth are available to the creature whose thinking is futile?

I think you've got a bad doctrine of Satan. He's a minion. He has no power but that which his Creator gives him, and then that power serves only the purposes of his Creator, not the created creature. A cogent conversation about redemption and dominion cannot be had with a bad angelology/satanology (or a bad anthropology).