PENTECOST: A Turning Point For The Jewish People

[jeremiah1five]

Imagine there is no New Testament. Imagine yourself in Jerusalem for the Feast of Harvest in the year 32 AD. Surrounded by fellow Jews, a commotion erupts. Tongues of fire appear, and a man speaks in languages you don't understand. This event, described in Acts 2, was a pivotal moment in history, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the early followers of Jesus.

As a devout Jew, you might have initially interpreted this event through the lens of your own scriptures. The prophecy of Joel 2:32 about God pouring out His Spirit resonates deeply. You might have seen this as a fulfillment specifically for the Jewish people, a sign of God's presence on Mount Zion.

But something profound happens. You, along with thousands of others, experience a powerful change. Filled with the Holy Spirit, you are compelled to share your story. This newfound faith ignites a fire within you, spreading like wildfire as you return home and encounter others.

Searching the Scriptures

With only the Hebrew Scriptures as your guide, discussions turn to understanding these events. The concept of a "New Covenant" prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah takes hold. The possibility that Jesus of Nazareth, a figure some proclaimed as Messiah, might be central to this new era becomes a topic of intense discussion.

Change and Controversy

Lives are transformed. Relationships with God, worship practices, and obedience to the Law take on a deeper meaning. However, not everyone embraces this change. Some reject the idea of a crucified Messiah upon a tree, leading to skepticism and persecution.

A Movement Takes Root

Despite the challenges, this new expression of faith flourishes. Jewish followers of Jesus, initially labelled "Christians," gather in homes for fellowship and worship. The message spreads throughout the Roman Empire, challenging every Jewish community.

Saul, the Persecutor, Becomes Saul, the Proponent

One of the most vocal opponents, Saul, a prominent rabbi, undergoes a dramatic conversion. He disappears for years, then returns with a newfound understanding of Scripture and the role of Jesus within God's plan for Israel. His insights become instrumental in helping others grasp the significance of the New Covenant era for the Jewish people.

The Question Remains: Now What?

This is just the beginning of the story. The early Church, primarily composed of Jewish believers, grapples with its identity and mission. The tension between Jewish tradition and this new movement paves the way for fascinating theological discussions that continue to this day.

What can we learn from this?

This account highlights the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and the importance of searching the Scriptures for understanding. It also showcases the challenges and controversies that arise when established traditions encounter new interpretations of faith. The story of Pentecost serves as a reminder of the ongoing dialogue between faith and tradition, a dialogue that continues to shape Jewish Christianity today.

Everything that happened in Israel and throughout the Roman Empire occurred among the Jewish people. And, like us today, all they had was the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and the Prophets that was a lamp to their feet and a light to their path towards understanding everything that happened to the Jews. There is no New Testament. But soon those most involved in leadership among the Jewish Christians communicate through writing correspondence and facts are laid out, guidance to the people is given, understanding from the Hebrew Scripture is developed and disseminated in these correspondences, letters written and maintained as leadership among the Jewish Christians attempt to unify their learnings into a solid core of doctrine to follow since they are still under the Law with a new perspective and deeper expression towards each other and towards the God of Abraham. But four decades later from Pentecost 32 AD the Roman army led by General Titus makes siege against Israel in general and Jerusalem specifically and in weeks the whole country destroyed, the Jewish Temple destroyed, and both Jews and Jewish Christians are scattered throughout the Empire as they flee for their lives.

Now what?

 

[Mr GLee]

Imagine there is no New Testament. Imagine yourself in Jerusalem for the Feast of Harvest in the year 32 AD. Surrounded by fellow Jews, a commotion erupts. Tongues of fire appear, and a man speaks in languages you don't understand. This event, described in Acts 2, was a pivotal moment in history, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the early followers of Jesus.

Yes, the time of reformation had come the scriptures written with the finger of God who is not a Hebrew man. His labor of love work of faith worked in restoring the government of God, the invisible head. . . . . destroying the abomination of desolation Kings in Israel .(Pagan foundation)

Today as Judges. .men and woman prophets sent as apostles from all the nations of the world

Acts 2:15-17King James Version For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:(every nation. ) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Prophecy the tongue of God was not revealed to those outward Jew that were hoping the dying flesh could profit . They thought others like Peter were drunk because they were not given the spiritual understanding from the invisible head (Christ) .

There was no female prophets during the period of Kings in Israel (a pagan foundation)

Jewish men's only club. Two high walls (15 foot) separated the Jewish woman from the Jewish men. Women not allowed to participate in the shadow ceremonies and another wall the Gentile from the Jews.

The veil was rent there was no Jewish man siting in the holy of holies . Satan fell and could not longer deceive all the nation God is a Jewish man as King of king .

The gospel explosion brining great Joy one like never before or ever again. Christian Jews and Gentile, mixed families could come together without fear of persecution by a law of men fathers .One new name that the father renamed his bride the church "Christian ", Literally meaning "residents of the city of Christ" . . ..prepared for his bride, named after her husband and founder of the city. . Christ .

Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations.

A great attribution for the Jew hat was hoping dying flesh could profit for something .like never before or ever again

I do not think God is a Hebrew racist. . which it seems you are making him out to be?

 

[Josheb]

Imagine there is no New Testament.

Why would we do that?

Imagine yourself in Jerusalem for the Feast of Harvest in the year 32 AD. Surrounded by fellow Jews, a commotion erupts. Tongues of fire appear, and a man speaks in languages you don't understand. This event, described in Acts 2, was a pivotal moment in history, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the early followers of Jesus.

Never happened.

There is no New Testament (NT). If there's no NT then there is no 32 AD Pentecost. There is no conversion of Saul to Paul and no Pauline epistolary. There is no epistolary of any kind. There's no gospel and no converted Luke to record the history of the early ecclesia.

As a devout Jew, you might have initially interpreted this event through the lens of your own scriptures. The prophecy of Joel 2:32 about God pouring out His Spirit resonates deeply. You might have seen this as a fulfillment specifically for the Jewish people, a sign of God's presence on Mount Zion.

Except for the fact the Jews there at that time got to hear God speak through Peter to tell them what they were experiencing was the fulfillment of Joel (so they needn't look for any other fulfilment of Joel in the future. They also learned their understanding of the promised Davidic rule was about the resurrection of the Messiah, NOT about a physical chair (throne) or physical rule there on earth in Israel.

But something profound happens. You, along with thousands of others, experience a powerful change. Filled with the Holy Spirit, you are compelled to share your story. This newfound faith ignites a fire within you, spreading like wildfire as you return home and encounter others.

Yep. A few minor adjustments, though. The disciples in Jerusalem had been told to remain in Jerusalem until the Spirit came. At Pentecost Jews from all over the known world assembled in Jerusalem for Pentecost (many of them had likely come for Passover and simply stated through Pentecost). Those who had come for Passover and/or Pentecost were going back home any way. They did not need Pentecost to be "compelled" to leave Jerusalem.

With only the Hebrew Scriptures as your guide, discussions turn to understanding these events.

No, with only the Hebrew Scriptures prior to the NT (the NT is technically Jewish scripture; the Jews just don't happen to recognize that) there would be enormous misunderstanding, not understanding.

The concept of a "New Covenant" prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah takes hold.

Yes, with newer revelation. Jeremiah and Isaiah don't "take hold" without the Messiah being revealed AND without the newer revelation the revealed Messiah brought. In other words, we cannot say "Hypothetically imagine the NT hasn't been written and all we have is the OT, which is sufficient for understanding Pentecost," because 1) much was veiled and hidden in the OT and 2) a huge pile of new stuff is revealed in Christ, the gospel of Christ, and the event of Pentecost. The Tanakh is an unfinished book. To base our understanding of Pentecost solely on Tanakh would be like reading two-thirds of a book and (wrongly) imagining everything that comes afterward can be understood by that two-thirds. It would be like read "The Three Musketeers" never knowing about the Duke of Buckingham's collaboration with the musketeers, the return of the jewels, and the killing of milady. We'd never piece together the culprit in many a great mystery (like Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None"). We'd never know the revelation of third expectation of Pip in "Great Expectations."

It is only when what the NT reveals is understood that Tanakh become sufficient.

 

[Josheb]

This is just the beginning of the story.

No, it's not. A LOT of Christians are taught Pentecost was the beginning of the Church, and the beginning of the "church age" (a term that is nowhere found in scripture) when what the scriptures teach AND the Jews unwittingly held was a single continuous line between the qahal (assembly) of Tanakh and the ecclesia (those called out) of the NT. We know this because when the Jews translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek they used the word "ecclesia" in place of "qahal." In the NT we read,

Hebrews 11:1-3, 32-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible............. And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Apart from the NT revelation and those who came to God by grace through faith after Calvary and Pentecost all the qahal was incomplete. They were made perfect in the NT ecclesia.

The early Church...

Is, technically, a misnomer. What we mean when we say, "the early Church" is the "ecclesia living in the New Testament era." The qahal/ecclesia has been around since at least Genesis 4:26.

The early Church, primarily composed of Jewish believers, grapples with its identity and mission. The tension between Jewish tradition and this new movement paves the way for fascinating theological discussions that continue to this day.

Yes, but "theological discussions" are worthless if they abandon truth. We do not know the exact point at which the early Church had more Gentile converts than Jewish converts, but it was likely very early after Calvary and Pentecost. We know this because the eleven, along with those who were followers of The Way, were kicked out of the temple's courtyards very early on. We also know that by the time of Acts 15 there had arisen substantive tension between how the Church's leaders were to handle large numbers of Gentile converts (and Peter was initially on the wrong side of that debate). Since all (or nearly all) of the epistolary was written before 70 AD we also know many of the Jewish rituals and practices were discarded and Christians were permitted to eat foods offered to idols as long as their consciences permitted it, and they didn't have to concern themselves with special days, again, as long as they did so unto God, didn't use the matter to divide the body of Christ, and their consciences abided it. More fundamentally, the long-held Jewish adherence to the Law of Moses as a means of obtaining justification and righteousness was wholly discarded, along with any work of the flesh.

 

[Josheb]

What can we learn from this?

This account highlights the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and the importance of searching the Scriptures for understanding.

Absolutely. I want to be clear: there is some good, commendable, and correct content in this op, but it is in the minority.

Unblessedly, the thought experiment fails the minute the NT is discarded because the revelation of God is not simply words in a book. Jesus himself is the word of God made flesh, the monogenes sarx egenetos. There is neither OT or NT without the person of Jesus. That is one of the parts that was veiled and hidden in Tanakh and without which Tanakh is not sufficient for our understanding of God revelation as a whole.

It also showcases the challenges and controversies that arise when established traditions encounter new interpretations of faith.

Like this op.

 

[Josheb]

The story of Pentecost serves as a reminder of the ongoing dialogue between faith and tradition, a dialogue that continues to shape Jewish Christianity today.

There is no such thing as "Jewish Christianity." There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ; there is only Christ, and Christ resurrected and ascended, now ruling all. For those who do not already know, the sect of Christianity we call "Messianic Judaism" is a man-made invention. Messianic Judaism was invented by a Baptist minister in the 1960s because his congregation was very busy evangelizing and brought in a lot of Jewish converts to Christ. Those Jewish converts (like many in the NT) wanted to hold onto their traditions (both theological and ceremonial) so he developed a model for them to do so. Look it up. In other words, Messianic Judaism is not Jewish, it's Baptist (which is why there are so many doctrinal similarities), and there's is nothing in the Bible except the misguided practices of Peter that shows Jewish converts to Christ did, or were permitted to do, their own thing. There's not record in the epistolary of Pentecost ever being practiced after Acts 2. When Paul mentions Pentecost in 1 Cor. 16 it's likely he stayed in Ephesus until Pentecost to take advantage of the gathering Jews to whom he would be preaching the gospel. It's likely the Passover was celebrated but it was enormously transformed to become the Lord's Supper, a gather celebrating Jesus, NOT a gathering celebrating the events of shadow of death passing over the firstborn who happened to have lambs blood on the mantle of their doorway. There is no more death in Christ! Death has been defeated among the firstborn and the first born has absolutely nothing to do with biological birth order. The entire event is transformed by Jesus in a manner incomprehensible if all we have is only Tanakh. What was foreshadows in Exodus was hidden from the Jew until Calvary and 32 AD's Pentecost.

Everything that happened in Israel and throughout the Roman Empire occurred among the Jewish people.

.... and thousands of Gentile converts to Christ.

And, like us today, all they had was the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and the Prophets that was a lamp to their feet and a light to their path towards understanding everything that happened to the Jews.

That is completely incorrect. They had the preaching of Jesus and the apostles, the indwelling Spirit, and the epistolary. Peter's second epistle (which was penned after the Thessalonian, Corinthian, Galatian, and Romans letters), makes it overtly clear Paul's letters were considered scripture.

2 Peter 3:14-16
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, by 60 AD, less than three decades after Calvary and Pentecost, Paul's letters were considered scripture. The apostle Peter knew this, he taught it to his readers, and he did so with an admonition they ignored that fact risking their own destruction.

There is no New Testament.

No, there is the New Testament in the form of 1) the incarnate Christ, 2) the gospel, 3) the Spirit, 4) the apostles, and 5) the epistolary. If we were limiting the Jews' understanding of Pentecost only to the events leading up to and including Pentecost, then the Jews would still have the first four sources in that list. Furthermore, since Tanakh contains much that is revealed again in the NT the Jew at Pentecost has five sources of understanding 32 AD's Pentecost.

There are only 50 days between Passover and Pentecost. The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus dd not disappear from social discourse in fifty days. Aside from the surviving eleven there were hundreds of disciples in Jerusalem. All of the Jews coming into Jerusalem from distant parts would have heard about Jesus and his teachings before they showed up for the Pentecost ceremony. Yes, they would have filtered what they were hearing through Tanakh, but that does not change the fact they had more than just Tanakh as a source of understanding.

Now what?

Well, hopefully you will cease this crusade to inappropriately Judaize Christianity and open yourself to all that God has provided Old and New.

All the Jews had during the gospel era was Tanakh and Judaism's teaching of Tanakh. As a consequence, the Jews got a lot wrong. The Jewish understanding of Passover proved wrong. The Jews' understanding of the Levitical priesthood turned out to be wrong. The Jews' understanding of the monarchy proved to be wrong. The Jews' understanding of the temple proved to be wrong. And when the long-prophesied Messiah showed up most of the Jews got it wrong! They denied Jesus, persecuted him unjustly and murdered him all because of their Judaized understanding of Tanakh!

Please stop trying to persuade Christians to believe the things that Got most of the Jews destroyed eternally.

Galatians 6:6-8
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The word "Judaism" is used only twice in the New Testament. Both uses occur in a single passage found in Paul's letter to the Church in Galatia.

Galatians 1:6-14
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.

When it comes to Judaism the New Testament is silent, thereby indicating the matter of Judaism was no something relevant to the NT writers and on the one occasion when Judaism is mentioned it is mentioned by a Jew of profound standing in the Jewish community (as a Pharisee) to say it is something in his past. Despite being advanced in Judaism, it was a former way of life for the Jewish convert to Christ.

And that is how you should be acting. Judaism should be a former way of life, not a contemporary one. This may prove to be very critical because Paul couches these words in the context of those who preach different gospels. Those who do so are to be accursed! Despite the revelation of Jesus, the anointed one of God, being couched in Tanakh, Christianity is not Judaism, and those who Judaize Christianity risk preaching a different gospel.

 

[Josheb]

It is very important to correctly understand what the word "gospel" means and correctly understand what is the gospel. Correctly understanding Pentecost is impossible apart from a correct understanding of the gospel.

The word "gospel" is generally understood as "good news," but that is not quite correct. It's not quite correct because it is incomplete. The Greek word for "gospel" is "euangalion." An evangelion is a form of good news, not just any and/or all good news. The Greek word for "good" is "kalon," and the Greek word for "news" is "akoe." That means the ordinary Greek phrase for regular, commonly occurring news that is good is "akoe kalon," NOT "euangelion."

An evangelion was a specific kind of news. It was a term used in the Greek and Roman cultures, not a term used in Israel. The Greeks and Romans would make a public proclamation anytime a noted leader accomplished a task deemed to be heroic. In Rome the practice of evangelions was reserved to announce great victories by Roman generals or the deification of a Caesar. In other words, when the writers of what we now call the New Testament used the word "gospel," or "euangelion," they were appropriating a pagan term. They were not just appropriating a pagan term; they were appropriating a pagan term used by their oppressors to subjugate the Jews. This use of the term "euangelion" would have been provocative to the Jewish audience, at best, and reprehensible to the Jewish hearer at worst. It was all the more controversial to the Gentile and especially the Roman hearer because of the Christian gospel's content.

The gospel the apostles and New Testament era Christians preached was this: Jesus is the anointed one of God and he is God. Not only is he God, but he has done something that not even Caesar (in his faux divinity) can do: defeat death, come back from the grave, and sit with God on God's throne. The Roman leaders lost their mind when they heard this. They arrested Christians, covered them in pitch, rammed a pole up inside them, and then - while they were still alive - lit them on fire to be used as city nightlights.

In Greek and Roman cultures humans and gods were completely different beings. A human could never become a god. Even when a god bred with a human the progeny was a demi-god, not a full-fledged god. Dei-gods died. They were not immortal. When a Roman general or Caesar was deified, it did not mean the man was literally turned into a god. Such a thing was rationally impossible. It would be like turning an apple into an orange, or an apple into a diamond. When a Caesar was deified, he was promoted to a position whereby he was no longer relegated to the realm of Pluto, the god of the underworld, where ordinary people went when they died. A deified person got to live in the Elysian Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus. He was still dead. He was still just an ordinary man, still subject to death, and there was nothing he could do about either condition.

Jesus, on the other hand is God, has defeated death, and he is seated with his Father God. As a consequence of his defeating death and resurrecting, something Caesar could not do, Jesus is now King of all kings, Lord of all lords, and the Savior by which anyone and everyone who believes can be saved from sin, death, and the wrath of God coming upon all who deny the Son (which would include Caesar). In other words..... Caesar had to bow to Jesus! Again, this drove the Roman leaders nuts. Just as the gospel had angered the Jewish leaders because they had to bow to Jesus, the Romans responded in kind. What was a stumbling block for the Jew was foolishness to the Roman because humans cannot literally be The God, and they cannot come back from the grave, and Caesar bows to no one.

Any definition of the gospel that does not include Jesus's resurrected King of all kings condition is a different gospel.

So how does this relate to Pentecost? The answer is in verse 30 where Peter, through the inspiration of the Spirit at Pentecost, reveals the true, previously unrevealed, nature of the throne God promised David.

Acts 2:29-36 ESV
"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

When God promised David a descendant of David's would sit on the throne God was NOT talking about a physical chair in which someone sat and physically ruled while physically living on physical earth. That prophecy written by David was about the resurrection. That prophecy was about the resurrection of the Messiah and the Messiah's not decaying in the grave.

If all we had was the Old Testament we'd never understand that. Not a single Jew present at Pentecost would understand what Peter said if all those Jews had was the Old Testament. The Old Testament Jews was still looking for a Jewish human to overthrow the Romans and sit on Herod's throne to rule the world.

Imagine there is no New Testament.

No, let's not.

Now what?

Now you bend you understanding of Pentecost to what was revealed at Pentecost...... understanding what was revealed in the NT radically confronted what was taught in Judaism.


Tanakh is always correct. Judaism is often wrong.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer. The church began with the first member of the bride of Christ . Abel the prophet a martyr . The second born to represent a person must be born agin .Abel was replaced with another second born Enos .it was at that time men began to call on God. I think realizing they must be born again giving them faith to call. .

The second born doctrine leading to the birth of the Son of man, Jesus the first born again Son of God .

Jacob meaning deceiver usurper in the line of the second born was used to introduce the bride of Christ to the un believing world preaching the gospel .

Naming his bride for the first time Israel . . .meaning he who wrestles with flesh and blood and empowered by the invisible head Christ he can over come . The born again name .

Genesis 32:27-29King James Version27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Why ask my name ? It would be like Christ saying why ask me for power to do. I would not lovingly commanded you if I did not plan on working with you. . . there he blessed him with his grace . . .the milk of the word

In that way not all Israel is born again Israel .Just as in the same way not all Christians that name the name are born again

God preparing the way to introduce this bride of all the nations of families of the world. Renamed her Christian in Acts promised in Isiah 62.

I would think a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations Christian literally meaning . . ".Residents of the City of Christ prepared for his bride the church", named after its founder and husband Christ

A word that as seems to have lost much meaning especially today .

 

[jeremiah1five]

Why would we do that?

Because hindsight is 20/20. It's important to place yourself in history to comprehend what it was like for Jewish Christians who only had the Law, Psalms, and Prophet's writings (Scripture) to understand and make sense of the effect of Jesus Christ and the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise upon the children of Israel and the things taking place among the Jews.

There is no New Testament (NT). If there's no NT then there is no 32 AD Pentecost. There is no conversion of Saul to Paul and no Pauline epistolary. There is no epistolary of any kind. There's no gospel and no converted Luke to record the history of the early ecclesia.

Before Saul's letter's, before Peter's letter's or James's letter's it is historical fact that on the Feast of Harvest in Jerusalem something happened in the upper room that spilled out onto the streets. How does a Jew come to understand what happened to them? First, eleven of Jesus' disciples experience "tongues of fire" above their heads (and I know personally what that experience is all about), then these eleven men begin speaking in languages they've never learned. Witnesses say these men are drunk. One of the eleven men stands up and addresses the crowd to defend what happened to these ten men and himself and he refers to their bible to explain what happened to these eleven men is the fulfillment of prophecies recorded in their bible. People respond to what this one man is saying and the experience of these eleven men in the upper room has now enveloped three thousand Jews before the day is over. The next day more Jews experience the exact same thing that occurred to these eleven men and more Jews come to experience it again the next day and the next. How are these events and experiences explained?
Through the Hebrew Scripture.

Except for the fact the Jews there at that time got to hear God speak through Peter to tell them what they were experiencing was the fulfillment of Joel (so they needn't look for any other fulfilment of Joel in the future. They also learned their understanding of the promised Davidic rule was about the resurrection of the Messiah, NOT about a physical chair (throne) or physical rule there on earth in Israel.

David had a physical chair. Jesus will, too. There will be a physical rule on earth in which Jesus as King of the Jews unites all twelve tribes of Hebrews in Israel and, as David, govern from a physical chair in Jerusalem.

Yep. A few minor adjustments, though. The disciples in Jerusalem had been told to remain in Jerusalem until the Spirit came. At Pentecost Jews from all over the known world assembled in Jerusalem for Pentecost (many of them had likely come for Passover and simply stated through Pentecost). Those who had come for Passover and/or Pentecost were going back home any way. They did not need Pentecost to be "compelled" to leave Jerusalem.

They came to Jerusalem in one condition and left for their homes in a different condition. What happened to them in Jerusalem changed their lives. What was God doing? How are these events and experiences explained?
Through the Hebrew Scripture.

No, with only the Hebrew Scriptures prior to the NT (the NT is technically Jewish scripture; the Jews just don't happen to recognize that) there would be enormous misunderstanding, not understanding.

It was through the Hebrew Scripture that most Jews were able to recognize this Jesus as Israel's Messiah and King, even the Roman centurion, the Syrophoenician woman, and the woman at the well, knew enough of the Hebrew Scripture to go to Jesus seeking help with their particular situations.

Yes, with newer revelation. Jeremiah and Isaiah don't "take hold" without the Messiah being revealed AND without the newer revelation the revealed Messiah brought. In other words, we cannot say "Hypothetically imagine the NT hasn't been written and all we have is the OT, which is sufficient for understanding Pentecost," because 1) much was veiled and hidden in the OT and 2) a huge pile of new stuff is revealed in Christ, the gospel of Christ, and the event of Pentecost. The Tanakh is an unfinished book. To base our understanding of Pentecost solely on Tanakh would be like reading two-thirds of a book and (wrongly) imagining everything that comes afterward can be understood by that two-thirds. It would be like read "The Three Musketeers" never knowing about the Duke of Buckingham's collaboration with the musketeers, the return of the jewels, and the killing of milady. We'd never piece together the culprit in many a great mystery (like Agatha Christie's "And Then There Were None"). We'd never know the revelation of third expectation of Pip in "Great Expectations."

It is only when what the NT reveals is understood that Tanakh become sufficient.

There were decades in history in which the things taking place among the Jews since the resurrection of Jesus Christ that could only be explained from the Hebrew Scripture. And although we don't have the details about what Jesus told His eleven disciples in those forty days before His ascension, we do know that Jesus told the eleven disciples things pertaining to the kingdom of God which were things concerning Himself.

In the days after Pentecost no doubt there was extensive oral discussion about what happened and for nearly fifteen years that's all that took place was discussion. In that time these Jewish "Christians" continued to gather regularly at the Temple and in their homes doing what they can to understand their experiences. In this time James, the Lord's brother, came to have a prominent role in this Jewish fellowship in Jerusalem. It was only natural to see James as an "authority" if only by the fact that he was Jesus' half-brother and originally opposed Jesus came to faith and repented of his opposition - he may have been among the three thousand conversions on the Day of Pentecost - and who would the people go to but to James and also his mother. As presumed spokesperson of this Jerusalem fellowship James knew enough that what was taking place among the Jews was centered primarily on the Hebrew people (Jews) and without any doubt these things that were taking place was mainly a "Jewish phenomenon" to the point that the first message, the first letter that was preserved was a letter to explain a few things sent out to the twelve tribes of Israel that were scattered across the Roman Empire and beyond. And this was before anything Saul wrote. The first message from God through James, the Lord's half-brother and under the anointing when he wrote his letter we now have in our bibles is a message from God to the twelve tribes of Israel.
It was, after all, a Hebrew covenant with a Hebrew Messiah and the personal Presence of God touching and invading the lives of the Hebrew people. Everything that was taking place among the Jews had Abraham and Moses stamped on it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Before Saul's letter's, before Peter's letter's or James's letter's it is historical fact that on the Feast of Harvest in Jerusalem something happened in the upper room that spilled out onto the streets. How does a Jew come to understand what happened to them? First, eleven of Jesus' disciples experience "tongues of fire" above their heads (and I know personally what that experience is all about), then these eleven men begin speaking in languages they've never learned. Witnesses say these men are drunk. One of the eleven men stands up and addresses the crowd to defend what happened to these ten men and himself and he refers to their bible to explain what happened to these eleven men is the fulfillment of prophecies recorded in their bible. People respond to what this one man is saying and the experience of these eleven men in the upper room has now enveloped three thousand Jews before the day is over. The next day more Jews experience the exact same thing that occurred to these eleven men and more Jews come to experience it again the next day and the next. How are these events and experiences explained?
Through the Hebrew Scripture.

Hebrew Scripture ?

God . . . a Hebrew man as King of kings??

In the beginning with the finger of God He said let there be. . . two stone tablets .Two represents one God has spoke (to the law and the prophets or law and its testimony of the law. With that same finger to represent will on both tablets, on both sides with no room for the oral traditions of dying mankind wrote down His laws . When Moses came down he destroyed them and the second time He moved Moses by faith. Moses hewn out the two tablets then again with his own finger wrote the same words

The division of tongues a sign of Gods approval

1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water (gospel) that was in the trench.

The gift of prophecy to all the nations of the world every nation hearing the same prophecy in thier own tongue. . The promise of Joel men, women and children in the new kingdom of priest after the tribe of Judah which means; "now I will praise and honor God"

Genisis25: 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Acts 2:15-17King James Version15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

There were no female or children prophets when there was Kings in Israel . . . they followed a pagan tradition. No girl allowed Children can make sounds but cannot be seen

The time of reformation had come. . the beginning of the last days. The walls that separated the Jewish woman for the Jewish "men's only club" and another high wall separated the Jewish woman from the gentiles .

A gospel explosion one like never before or ever again .All the families that have the gift of Christ grace could come together as one foamily . no longer divided as tribes One invisible head Christ. .


A great tribulation for the non believing Jews. One like never before or ever again

 

[Arial]

With only the Hebrew Scriptures as your guide, discussions turn to understanding these events. The concept of a "New Covenant" prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah takes hold. The possibility that Jesus of Nazareth, a figure some proclaimed as Messiah, might be central to this new era becomes a topic of intense discussion.

The NT begins with Jesus' birth, it does not begin with Pentecost. So in order to make your argument with no NT in existence, you either have to presume all the events of Jesus' life and death and resurrection took place with no existing record given or made, or that they didn't occur. The NT gives a record of what occurred. Without that record, Pentecost is meaningless. It is the NT that explains Pentecost, and it is the apostles present that explained what was happening.

Lives are transformed. Relationships with God, worship practices, and obedience to the Law take on a deeper meaning. However, not everyone embraces this change. Some reject the idea of a crucified Messiah upon a tree, leading to skepticism and persecution.

You are only able to present your theory FROM the NT.

 

[Tambora]

Pentecost ignited the reversal of the tower of babel in order to draw all nations back to the Lord.
Separation of language at Babel, and at Pentecost all was heard in their own language.
All those at Pentecost would return to the places they had been scattered and would spread the good news to the world.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

The very important underlying issue that everyone in this discussion is either ignorant of or has forgotten is that Pentecost is a Greek term. It's actually the Feast of Weeks and is one of the 7 Feasts of Yahweh which the Jews were supposed to celebrate since the time of the Exodus. Without an understanding of what God's purpose was for this, you have no idea what was the prophetic fulfillment of what actually happened on June17, 31 AD (which was after the crucifixion on April 25, 31 AD).

 

[Josheb]

Pentecost ignited the reversal of the tower of babel in order to draw all nations back to the Lord.
Separation of language at Babel, and at Pentecost all was heard in their own language.
All those at Pentecost would return to the places they had been scattered and would spread the good news to the world.

Interesting insight. Source?

 

[Josheb]

The very important underlying issue that everyone in this discussion is either ignorant of or has forgotten is that Pentecost is a Greek term. It's actually the Feast of Weeks and is one of the 7 Feasts of Yahweh which the Jews were supposed to celebrate since the time of the Exodus. Without an understanding of what God's purpose was for this, you have no idea what was the prophetic fulfillment of what actually happened on June17, 31 AD (which was after the crucifixion on April 25, 31 AD).

Can you explain the meaning of the Feast of Weeks and its relevance to this op without implying everyone's ignorance or faulty memory? (post 13 reads much better without the first 19 words)


.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Can you explain the meaning of the Feast of Weeks and its relevance to this op without implying everyone's ignorance or faulty memory? (post 13 reads much better without the first 19 words)


.

Not interested in arguments with people who don't want to read or watch my material. So I'll just leave it there for the seekers of truth to seek further.

 

[Mr GLee]

Can you explain the meaning of the Feast of Weeks and its relevance to this op without implying everyone's ignorance or faulty memory? (post 13 reads much better without the first 19 words)


.

The literal day Pentecost began at the time of the 1st century reformation the veil was rent the shadows of the old testament" carinal laws" as a sign to the unbelieving world had become sight The government of God restored to the time period of Judges. Apostles men and women ( messengers) sent our with the gospel . . prophecy.

 

[Tambora]

The promised Spirit of the new covenant at Pentecost was for Gentiles also.

Galatians 3:13-14 NET
(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)
(14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.


Ephesians 1:11-14 NET
(11) In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
(12) so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, would be to the praise of his glory.
(13) And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
(14) who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

 

[Mr GLee]

The promised Spirit of the new covenant at Pentecost was for Gentiles also.

Galatians 3:13-14 NET
(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)
(14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.


Ephesians 1:11-14 NET
(11) In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
(12) so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, would be to the praise of his glory.
(13) And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
(14) who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

I would think salvation is for the Jew also . Abel a gentile the first recognized born again believer and martyr. His blood like that of all saints cries out for a new incorruptible body

The first century reformation came. Pentecost restoring the government of faith to the period before there were Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation a Pagan foundation)

God( not seen) is not served by human hands has no needs but satisfices all.

Those that do eulogize the dying flesh of Jesus the Son of man they have come under the wrath of God
.
Worshiping the temporal dying things (flesh and blood) above the eternal spiritual things not seen

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God (not the Son of man ) hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible (not temporal fleshly) things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Dying mankind, Jesus the Son of man more than the (invisible) Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Josheb]

The literal day Pentecost began at the time of the 1st century reformation the veil was rent the shadows of the old testament" carinal laws" as a sign to the unbelieving world had become sight The government of God restored to the time period of Judges. Apostles men and women ( messengers) sent our with the gospel . . prophecy.

The veil of the temple was torn on Passover, or at Calvary (Mt. 27:51), and Hebrews 9 explains thisin greater detail.

What we Christians call "Pentecost" comes from the Jewish "Shavuot," or the Festival of Weeks. It comes fifty days (seven weeks) after the first day of Passover (Gk: pentekoste = fiftieth), or 49 days after what we now call Easter. Shavuot is the Jewish holy day celebrating the giving of the Law (Torah) to Moses on Mount Sinai. It is one of the three "pilgrimage" holy days; it was required to be observed in the Jerusalem temple (which is why the Jews from every nation had gathered). It is a harvest festival in which the first fruits are gathered and God is worshiped and praised for His provision. It is symbolically an occasion of recommitment. The Jewish audience of the gospels and epistolary teachings would have understood any mention of "first fruits" through this lens.

Some of the more preterist Christians consider Pentecost an event indicating the end of the age, ala Matthew 13...

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Matthew 13:36-43
Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play," Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


The ends of the age had come and on that day of Shavuot/Pentecost in Acts 2 God gathered the first fruits of the harvest He'd sown in Christ. Christ, of course, was the first fruit of the first fruits (1 Cor. 15:20), so to speak, the seed that once planted would die a produce an abundant crop. Paul (Rom. 8:23) and James (Jms. 1:18) then went on to describe how the converts to Christ in the NT era were further first fruits.

Pentecost (or Shavuot) was, indeed, a "turning point" for the Jewish people, but not only the Jewish people. While it is true the Acts 2 text specifies, "Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem..." the text also tells us the crowd at Pentecost was, "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs," and we know these people would soon thereafter be returning to their respective homelands telling others of their experience, sowing new seeds of fruit-bearing coverts in lands outside of Israel, among people who were not Jews.

So Pentecost was a turning point for the entire world (and that is one of the reasons we are here in cyberspace talking about this from diverse places on the planet).

John 12:24
Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Matthew 13:23
But the one sown with seed on the good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much.”

1 Corinthians 15:35-37
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

Acts 2:47
...And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.


Big harvest.