Origin of the Cross is from Paganism

[Mr GLee]

His point being that those who worship other gods should come to Christ, the true God, and cease their worship of false deities.

Exactly, The reason King Josiah is considered the greatest king. one like never before or ever again . By the Spirit and power of the living word (sola scriptura) he cast out the lying spirit of the legion (many) false gods in the likeness of dying mankind. today called patron saints a succession of dying mankind


2 Kings 23:23-25King James VersionBut in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the Lord in Jerusalem. Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord. And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

The Armor of the King Josiah, the Apologist

 

[CherubRam]

I do not see the alignment of text Josheb.

 

[Rella]

The Romans used different methods of hanging, not just one. The Messiah to come was to be hung on a (stake or pole.)

Okay.

Impaled or hands bound at the wrist nailed above his head to the stake?

 

[Josheb]

I do not see the alignment of text Josheb.

Then that is because either you're not looking, or looking but not discerning. Both these sources were writing about heresies, and only occasionally did they appeal to orthodoxy to measure the heresy. You've assumed they were writing about Christianity when they were not (or perhaps you were duped by quote mining sources that failed that discrimination themselves - since I do not know whether you got this op from someone else or read Tertullian and Felix independently, misunderstanding their writings).

When Tertullian cites those who worshipped other deities (in the Church or out of it) he does so with the necessary implication he does not do so. The alternative would necessarily be that he was an idolator and therefore nothing he wrote should be trusted and this op is built on the lies of an idolator. It's one or the other. He wrote explicitly about their ignorance of the cross and other deities! "You are indeed unaware that your gods in their origin have proceeded from this hated cross."

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

People do not hate wood, ordinary wood, or even wood cut, shaped, and formed into two intersecting pieces. That's just nonsense. That they would love wood was addressed decidedly by Paul in Romans 1.

Romans 1:24-25
[Having denied God's power evident in creation].... Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Those are the context of Tertullian's (and Felix's) writings. Neither author was inventing his own context or denying scripture and their study thereof.

Tertullian: Well, then, this modeller, before he did anything else, hit upon the form of a wooden cross, because even our own body assumes as its natural position the latent and concealed outline of a cross.

Scripture: But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)​

We should expect people to pervert all elements of creation. We should expect them to worship that which is created (including themselves) and not the Creator. We should expect them to pervert creation for their own devices, including the carving of idols and the making of what is sacred into idols. It is what sinful man does. Why does sinful man do these things?

Because they can.

That is part of the reason the gospel kicks butt and takes name, owns all that was perverted by sin wherever it is used to that effect by God's people. We fail God. God's not failing Himself. Ops like this are prime examples of that failure. This op is not much different than the yearly plethora of nonsense we read/hear about Christmas. The less mature engage that nonsense with defenses of Christmas when what should be done is call it what it is, a red herring, and then either ignore the trolls or give them the gospel. Distributing historical factoids in denial of the lie only hardens hearts further. That Christmas-critic might walk away with a better understanding of history still dead in sin and the fact-distributor will likely walk away proud of his effectiveness distributing historical facts oblivious to the reality the opportunity to share the gospel just crossed his/her path and s/he missed it.

Tertullian was not silent.

He wrote about these heresies, the heresies inside and outside Christianity and not once did he ever deny the cross (even as a Montanist he stood for Calvary).

Tertullian: You are ashamed, I suppose, to worship unadorned and simple crosses.

Scripture: We (Christians) fix our eyes on the [simple] cross and its shame (Hebrews 12:2).​

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


Tertullian said, "Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity," and in doing so he indicted those critics for their false cause fallacy. The implied argument is: Because Christians pray facing the east they are worshiping Sol. That's sheer nonsense! Facing east does NOT mean a person is praying to Sol (or any other god or God). It's a dumb argument; one that falls away as worthless the moment the fallacy employed is recognized.

You missed that.

So learn to be as critical of the critics as you are of my posts. Be an equal opportunity critic; examine everything you read/hear. Look for and listen for the logical fallacies and the eisegetic errors they employ (because they are endless and, sadly, Christians are not immune).

Tertullian: For the Jewish feasts on the Sabbath.... [the elements of faith upon which the gospel was predicated] and practices are of course foreign from your gods.​

What pagans and heretics were doing with the cross was foreign from the God of scripture, Tertullian's God. Then, stating he was returning from his digression, Tetullian concluded,

...you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest."​

Come over to our understanding of the cross, our understanding of God. It is not so far to travel. There is only one God (multiple gods are logically self-contradictory). You do not have to leave behind a cross, but you will have to leave behind all the perverse notions of the cross and accept and bow down to the truth of Christ crucified and resurrected.

 

[CherubRam]

Okay.

Impaled or hands bound at the wrist nailed above his head to the stake?

Hands tied or nailed above. No impalement.

 

[CherubRam]

Speaking to Pagan Christian. (Catholics)

"You are indeed unaware that your gods in their origin have proceeded from this hated cross."
Pagans hanged their gods on crosses. That is a historical fact.


The cross is a geometrical figure formed by two intersecting lines and has been recognized as a symbol of Christianity since the early days of the religion, representing the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Before its Christian significance, various forms of the cross were used as religious or cultural symbols in ancient Egypt, such as the ankh, which represented life, and in other cultures throughout Europe and Asia.

 

[Josheb]

Okay.

Impaled or hands bound at the wrist nailed above his head to the stake?

Hands tied or nailed above. No impalement.

Point of clarification: I believe I was the one who introduced the matter of impalement. I do not read @CherubRam to anywhere be saying or suggesting crucifixion has anything to do with impalement. I brought that up because before crucifixion existed the word "stauros" was also associated with sticks or poles used for impalement. My point being that the meaning of stauros is not monolithic, as is suggested in this opening post. Fundamentally, the fixation of pole or intersecting timbers (sometimes the "cross" was an "X" in which the feet of both posts were buried in the ground) is misguided and misses the point of the scriptures taken as a whole. It is the shame of a criminal's torturous punishment that is the problem to be solved. When God prophetically declared a curse on those hanged on (not from) a tree (Dt. 21:33), His emphasis was not on the form, but on the inherent desolation. It defiles the land. No matter how that body is fastened to that tree.... it is not to hang there overnight. Everything involved in that practice is a gross idolatrous perversion of God's creation. Humans pervert God's tree when they use them as tools for capital punishment and that is made all the more desolate and defiling when it happens to an innocent man. Cutting up the tree to make a pole or a +, or an X, is not better; it's worse. That which is living and produces fruit is killed to bring more death; its only fruit is desolate, defiling death.

The fundamental problem with the op is its false-cause argument = Because the word stauros means pole [modern] Christianity is false.

That argument is a load of ignorant hogwash. Qualifying the application to be an anti-RCC rag does not erase the foundational fallacy (and if that's the unstated purpose of the op then this thread belongs in the Roman Catholic Board, not the Bible Study Board).

 

[Rella]

Hands tied or nailed above. No impalement.

I am ... uneducated in this, going to opt for hands tied... and honestly maybe even feet.

My off the cuff reasoning is it is said... As John testifies, “These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: ‘Not one of his bones will be broken’” (John 19:36). The Exodus 12:46 rule is also echoed prophetically in Psalms 34:20: “He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.” To the last detail of his death, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah, verifying that he was, as John the Baptist claimed, the sacrificial Lamb of God.

You cannot drive a stake anywhere in the wrist, hands or feet without breaking some bone(s).

Now maybe a stake was driven into the wood, either a traditional cross or stake, where he could be tied.

If he had stakes in him, and if by some miracle managed to not break a bone, then when they took him off the cross then removal likely would have done it...

But that would not explain why Jesus showed his damaged palms to Thomas.... "” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

So

 

[CherubRam]

I am ... uneducated in this, going to opt for hands tied... and honestly maybe even feet.

My off the cuff reasoning is it is said... As John testifies, “These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: ‘Not one of his bones will be broken’” (John 19:36). The Exodus 12:46 rule is also echoed prophetically in Psalms 34:20: “He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.” To the last detail of his death, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah, verifying that he was, as John the Baptist claimed, the sacrificial Lamb of God.

You cannot drive a stake anywhere in the wrist, hands or feet without breaking some bone(s).

Now maybe a stake was driven into the wood, either a traditional cross or stake, where he could be tied.

If he had stakes in him, and if by some miracle managed to not break a bone, then when they took him off the cross then removal likely would have done it...

But that would not explain why Jesus showed his damaged palms to Thomas.... "” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

So View attachment 1012

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the (cross / stake.)

 

[Rella]

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the (cross / stake.)

Right, I had forgotten that. Too much going on at the moment. Thanks.

But ran into this and enter the RCC ideas... as always. Pagan Christians

Was Jesus Tied to the Cross?

Some scholars suggest artists got it wrong—Jesus was tied rather than nailed. Explore the evidence!

www.massexplained.com

Was Jesus Tied to the Cross?​

Most paintings depicting the crucifixion show Jesus’ hands and feet nailed to the cross. For centuries, this was accepted as fact.

Recently, however, this theory has been challenged. Some historians maintain that most crucifixion victims were tied to the cross, rather than nailed. They cite the fact that, with one exception, there is no archaeological evidence of a body with nail marks from crucifixion.

The Lone Exception​

The bones of a man crucified at the same time as Jesus were excavated in Jerusalem in 1968.

The ossuary containing the remains bears a Hebrew inscription—Yehohanan ben Hagkol—which, in English is John, son of Hagkol.

After his death, the body was brought down for burial. The soldiers were unable to detach his right foot since the nail bent after striking a knot in the wood. As a result, the foot and nail were removed together along with part of the wooden cross.

The nail used by the Roman soldiers in the archaeological discovery did not penetrate the foot from the top like most crucifixion depictions. In traditional paintings and sculptures, Christ’s feet overlap one another and a single nail transverses both via the dorsum pedis.

In this case, the nail was inserted in the side of the heel, below the ankle. In addition, wood was found under the head of the nail, indicating that a piece of wood was inserted so as to increase the size of the nail’s head making it difficult for the condemned to free his foot.

Illustration Courtesy of MassExplained App
Yehohanan’s hands did not exhibit any puncture wounds; therefore, it is conjectured that he was tied. The illustration below shows the most probable posture he assumed.

Illustration Courtesy of MassExplained App
To date, this is the only archaeological evidence of crucifixion in the ancient world.

Was Jesus Tied to the Cross?​

These scholars suggest that the time it took to drive several iron nails through flesh, dense muscle, tendons, bone and wood would have been excessive.

At times as many as 6,000 prisoners of war were crucified at once, making tying the convicted the more efficient practice. We see this method of affixing the condemned to the cross in most renditions of the good and bad thief who were crucified alongside Jesus.

Scriptural Evidence​

The Gospel accounts of the crucifixion do not mention nails. The only reference is in John’s Gospel when Thomas declares he must see…

“…the mark of the nails in his hands…’”
—John 20:25

Though there is only one place in Scripture that overtly mentions nails in Jesus’ hands, in several post-resurrection appearances, Jesus invites his followers to behold my hands and my feet, to prove his identity. Why would Jesus offer his hands and feet if they had no distinguishing marks?

This logic leads other scholars to conclude that using nails was the norm. The Jewish historian Josephus relays that Roman soldiers:

“…amused themselves by nailing their prisoners in different postures.”
—The Jewish War, 75 AD

Why Then No Evidence?​

Then why only one remain with nail marks? There are several possible reasons:

1. Iron was costly and the nails were removed.
2. Humiliation would continue after death. The body would be thrown in a garbage heap or left on the cross for wild beasts leaving no remains.
3. In Palestine, an honorable death required burial. The crucified were not typically allowed to be entombed. With no tomb, the victim was dishonored, the family denied a place to mourn and memory of the dead blotted from existence. Without a grave, no remains were preserved.

Nailed Where?​

If Jesus’ hands and feet were nailed to the cross, how were the nails placed?

Illustration Courtesy of MassExplained App
Some historians claim that a nail placed in the palm of the hand (A) could not support the weight of the human body—the nail would rip the flesh between the metacarpal bones.

Others claim that the transverse ligaments and conjunctive tissue in the hand are quite strong and could support the weight.

Image Courtesy of MassExplained App
Additionally, some crosses had a sedile, a small seat, and footrest which lessened the total weight the nails in the palms of the hands and the feet needed to support.

An alternate location is below the wrist (B). A nail placed between the radius and ulna would fit with the biblical account that no bones were broken. The Greek word translated as hand in John’s Gospel could refer to the arm and hand together.

AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

 

[Mr GLee]

Hands tied or nailed above. No impalement.

Hung neck . Capitol punishment

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Capitol punishment fall back break neck. Using the tribe of Dan to represent the poison of false prophecy sent by false apostles . Fall back Break neck hung (capitol judgment)

Neck as beauty

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

2 Samuel 18:9-11King James Version9 And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away. And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.

Exodus 13:13And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem

John 18:5-7King James Version5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth


1 Samuel 4:17-19King James Version17 And the messenger answered and said, Israel is fled before the Philistines, and there hath been also a great slaughter among the people, and thy two sons also, Hophni and Phinehas, are dead, and the ark of God is taken.18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

[EarlyActs]

Tertullian confessed that pagans worshiped crucified saviors by hanging them on a cross.

"Crosses, moreover, we Christians neither venerate nor wish for. You indeed who consecrate gods of wood venerate wooden crosses, perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camps, what are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it."

The pagan roots of Christianity are indicated by his confession. Tertullian was a Christian who later became a Gnostic. He implies that Pagan Christians borrowed the sun-god myth.

Tertullian​

Roman Christian theologian and writer (c. 155 – c. 220)​

Tertullian was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa. He was the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature and was an early Christian apologist and a polemicist against heresy, including contemporary Christian Gnosticism.

What does Galatians 3 say about the Deuteronomy quote?