No Unity Of Faith With Roman Catholicism

[Carbon]

Roman Catholics, consider watching this.

 

[fastfredy0]

My question is: Can a person that believes that Faith + Works is needed for salvation, can that person be "saved" given his position does not change?

 

[makesends]

My question is: Can a person that believes that Faith + Works is needed for salvation, can that person be "saved" given his position does not change?

Yes. In essence all Arminians believe it, and most of them till they die. But I think most would agree that in the end, it all depends on God's mercy upon those to whom he showed mercy. They may not have thought in those terms, but it is there. Their faith —even the content of their faith—does not flow from them. Their brains are scrambled, but so are mine.

It's when they are foaming at the mouth that I'm not so sure.

 

[Carbon]

My question is: Can a person that believes that Faith + Works is needed for salvation, can that person be "saved" given his position does not change?

Hmmm, well, according to Eph 2:8-9, salvation is a gift from God received by grace through faith alone. And we are justified by faith alone. Believing one needs to work is an obvious misunderstanding of grace, at the least. It can also show legalism or not knowing or understanding the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. So a new Christian (whether Catholic or not) won't find satisfaction in such a thing. Eventually anyway.

 

[makesends]

Hmmm, well, according to Eph 2:8-9, salvation is a gift from God received by grace through faith alone. And we are justified by faith alone. Believing one needs to work is an obvious misunderstanding of grace, at the least. It can also show legalism or not knowing or understanding the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. So a new Christian (whether Catholic or not) won't find satisfaction in such a thing. Eventually anyway.

Right. And, hence, my point, that it is not their understanding, but the fact of the faith, not the validity of their understanding of the Gospel —certainly not the validity of their related terminology— i.e., it is the fact of the mercy (Grace) of God alone, that determines whether or not they belong to him.

Granted, one would think that, along the lines of 'my sheep know the sound of my voice' (my paraphrase, btw —not a quote), their lexicon would change sooner or later, but I can't expect that until it happens, if it happens at all. But like I told @fastfredy0 , I know some Arminians who I am sure I will see in Heaven, whose terminology did not change, though I'm confident they too depended upon God's mercy.

 

[JesusFan]

My question is: Can a person that believes that Faith + Works is needed for salvation, can that person be "saved" given his position does not change?

No, if that means that they are trusting in water Baptism, speaking in tongues, born Catholic etc to save them

 

[fastfredy0]

Well, I'm not sure but I tend to think that a person who is partially depending upon his works may not be saved. The following are notes I've taken from various readings:

Is Salvation Shown to be False by the Belief of any Work is needed for Salvation​

Source: Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:2-6; Galatians 3:10; James 2:10 …

Question: What is the application of these verses if one believes the source of faith is the individual rather than God. (is the verse applicable?)

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him

Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “if they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul initially came to faith, he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of the scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works f
or salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them. Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me void (useless, without result), Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

All this saving work is the gift of God’s sovereign grace. Consequently, Paul concludes, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. In effect he was saying to Peter, “By withdrawing from fellowship with your Gentile brothers you take your stand with the Judaizers and against Christ. You nullify the grace of God by denying the need for Christ’s death, just as you did when you rebuked the Lord for declaring it was necessary for Him to suffer, be killed, and raised on the third day (see Matthew 16:21-22).

The two pillars of the gospel are the grace of God and the death of Christ, and those are the two pillars that, by its very nature, legalism destroys. The person who insists that he can earn salvation by his own efforts undermines the very foundation of Christianity and nullifies the precious death of Christ on his behalf (Galatians 2:21). John MacArthur – N.T. Commentary

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ, and not for the sake of their own works.

Tom Constable: The Galatians would be obligating themselves to obey the whole Mosaic Code if they allowed the false teachers to circumcise them. Their confidence in circumcision would reveal confidence in their own ability to earn salvation by obeying the Law. This legal approach to salvation would separate them from Christ since what He did was provide salvation as a gift. They would fall away from the grace method of salvation if they chose the law method.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

One who preaches righteousness through the law is compelled to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ's redemptive work. To deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ makes one a non-Christian. Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Galatians. Galatians 2:21 I do not ignore or nullify the [gracious gift of the] grace of God [His amazing, unmerited favor], for if righteousness comes through [observing] the Law, then Christ died needlessly. [His suffering and death would have had no purpose whatsoever.]”

A third consequence of seeking to be justified by circumcision or any other form of the law, is that it causes a person to become severed from Christ and thereby become fallen from grace. Severed is from katarge image (Image), which, when followed by the preposition, means to be separated or loosed from (cf. Romans 7:2, 6). Fallen is from ehpipt image (Image), which means to lose one’s grasp on something. Simply stated, a person cannot live by both law and grace. To attempt to be justified by law is to reject the way of grace.

For a believer to start living again under the law to merit salvation is, in fact, to reject salvation by grace. John MacArthur – New Testament Commentary

Galatians 5:4 is especially clear about this incompatibility: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/arminians.html (are Arminians saved)

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html (taking the idea that Arminians are not saved too far) It is Christ who saves through faith, not our soteriological knowledge. This, to my mind, is the most utterly insidious form of "works-righteousness" that I have ever encountered. By cleverly demanding that for one to truly be saved they must achieve a solid understanding of Calvinistic soteriology is to "make the cross of Christ of no effect".

To further exacerbate their dissimulation, they dare to go even further. They dogmatically and shockingly assert that any professing Calvinist that does not concur with their Calvinistic neo-gnostic pretensions and believe that Arminians can be saved has "spoke peace to Arminians" thereby abrogating their own salvation. As one gleans their writings on this matter, one amazingly discovers that according to this chimerical premise, the most eminent saints in church history are apparently "lost"! A. A. Hodge, Spurgeon, D. Martyn-Lloyd Jones, Gordon Clark, Van Till ad infinitum, ad nauseum, are consigned to God's wrath by the unmitigated temerity of these neo-gnostics.

Faith must rise to trust, and trust that consists in entrustment to him. In faith there is the engagement of person to person in the inner movement of the whole man to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation. It means the abandonment of confidence in our own or any human resources in a totality act of self-commitment to Christ.

Re: “are Catholics who adhere to official Roman Catholic beliefs and practices saved?” The answer to this question is “no.” Why? Because the Roman Catholic Church teaches that one must have good works and observe the rituals of Roman Catholicism to be saved.

Question: “Work is defined as an activity involving mental or physical effort done to achieve a purpose or result. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Thus, faith is defined as a work of God. If one believes the cause of “saving faith” is oneself and not God, does this nullify that person’s supposed “saving faith” … R.C. Sproul said “maybe”. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

 

[makesends]

Well, I'm not sure but I tend to think that a person who is partially depending upon his works may not be saved. The following are notes I've taken from various readings:

Is Salvation Shown to be False by the Belief of any Work is needed for Salvation​

Source: Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:2-6; Galatians 3:10; James 2:10 …

Question: What is the application of these verses if one believes the source of faith is the individual rather than God. (is the verse applicable?)

R.C. Sproul: “If you trust upon anything else than Jesus Christ in addition to Jesus Christ you lose Christ, all or nothing at all. Christ does not become of less effect; he becomes of no effect if you try to add something to Him

Sproul goes on to say that he thought Arminians are saved, but barely by which he meant “if they don’t take their theology to its logic conclusion. They would not be Christians if they put their trust in their own righteousness”. When Sproul initially came to faith, he thought it was his choice; he didn’t know of the scripture that described the process.

Gill - his view of works f
or salvation rendered Christ unprofitable, made his death to be in vain, his sacrifice of no effect, and his righteousness useless: besides, Christ is a whole Savior, or none at all; to join anything with him and his righteousness, in the business of justification and salvation, is interpreted by him as a contempt and neglect of him, as laying him aside, and to such persons he is of no profit; and if he is not, what they have, and whatsoever they do, will be of no advantage; wealth and riches, yea, the whole world could it be gained, their works and righteousness, whatever show they make before men, God has declared shall not profit them; and trusting to these renders Christ unprofitable to them. Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me void (useless, without result), Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

All this saving work is the gift of God’s sovereign grace. Consequently, Paul concludes, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. In effect he was saying to Peter, “By withdrawing from fellowship with your Gentile brothers you take your stand with the Judaizers and against Christ. You nullify the grace of God by denying the need for Christ’s death, just as you did when you rebuked the Lord for declaring it was necessary for Him to suffer, be killed, and raised on the third day (see Matthew 16:21-22).

The two pillars of the gospel are the grace of God and the death of Christ, and those are the two pillars that, by its very nature, legalism destroys. The person who insists that he can earn salvation by his own efforts undermines the very foundation of Christianity and nullifies the precious death of Christ on his behalf (Galatians 2:21). John MacArthur – N.T. Commentary

Matthew-Henry: Christ will not be the Savior of any who will not own and rely upon him as their only Savior. Let us take heed to the warnings and persuasions of the apostle to steadfastness in the doctrine and liberty of the gospel. All true Christians, being taught by the Holy Spirit, wait for eternal life, the reward of righteousness, and the object of their hope, as the gift of God by faith in Christ, and not for the sake of their own works.

Tom Constable: The Galatians would be obligating themselves to obey the whole Mosaic Code if they allowed the false teachers to circumcise them. Their confidence in circumcision would reveal confidence in their own ability to earn salvation by obeying the Law. This legal approach to salvation would separate them from Christ since what He did was provide salvation as a gift. They would fall away from the grace method of salvation if they chose the law method.

Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Romans 4:4, Romans 5:11). Christ, by circumcision (Luke 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Galatians 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Galatians 3:3). … John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

One who preaches righteousness through the law is compelled to deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ's redemptive work. To deny the sufficiency and necessity of Christ makes one a non-Christian. Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Galatians. Galatians 2:21 I do not ignore or nullify the [gracious gift of the] grace of God [His amazing, unmerited favor], for if righteousness comes through [observing] the Law, then Christ died needlessly. [His suffering and death would have had no purpose whatsoever.]”

A third consequence of seeking to be justified by circumcision or any other form of the law, is that it causes a person to become severed from Christ and thereby become fallen from grace. Severed is from katarge image (Image), which, when followed by the preposition, means to be separated or loosed from (cf. Romans 7:2, 6). Fallen is from ehpipt image (Image), which means to lose one’s grasp on something. Simply stated, a person cannot live by both law and grace. To attempt to be justified by law is to reject the way of grace.

For a believer to start living again under the law to merit salvation is, in fact, to reject salvation by grace. John MacArthur – New Testament Commentary

Galatians 5:4 is especially clear about this incompatibility: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/arminians.html (are Arminians saved)

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html (taking the idea that Arminians are not saved too far) It is Christ who saves through faith, not our soteriological knowledge. This, to my mind, is the most utterly insidious form of "works-righteousness" that I have ever encountered. By cleverly demanding that for one to truly be saved they must achieve a solid understanding of Calvinistic soteriology is to "make the cross of Christ of no effect".

To further exacerbate their dissimulation, they dare to go even further. They dogmatically and shockingly assert that any professing Calvinist that does not concur with their Calvinistic neo-gnostic pretensions and believe that Arminians can be saved has "spoke peace to Arminians" thereby abrogating their own salvation. As one gleans their writings on this matter, one amazingly discovers that according to this chimerical premise, the most eminent saints in church history are apparently "lost"! A. A. Hodge, Spurgeon, D. Martyn-Lloyd Jones, Gordon Clark, Van Till ad infinitum, ad nauseum, are consigned to God's wrath by the unmitigated temerity of these neo-gnostics.

Faith must rise to trust, and trust that consists in entrustment to him. In faith there is the engagement of person to person in the inner movement of the whole man to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation. It means the abandonment of confidence in our own or any human resources in a totality act of self-commitment to Christ.

Re: “are Catholics who adhere to official Roman Catholic beliefs and practices saved?” The answer to this question is “no.” Why? Because the Roman Catholic Church teaches that one must have good works and observe the rituals of Roman Catholicism to be saved.

Question: “Work is defined as an activity involving mental or physical effort done to achieve a purpose or result. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Thus, faith is defined as a work of God. If one believes the cause of “saving faith” is oneself and not God, does this nullify that person’s supposed “saving faith” … R.C. Sproul said “maybe”. John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of GOD.

I understand, and thanks for the long reply, but, in the end, what saves is God's will and God's mercy and the blood of Christ, and God's applying it to us —NOT OUR APPLYING IT— so that our ignorance is not causal any more than our intelligence is. Our will also being a result and not a cause, according to Ephesians 2 and John 1 and many other places, the FAITH through which we are saved is a gift of God, and is not of our own making. We believe. We do not create our belief. We will to believe, (inseparable from submission and love for God, (regardless of how we feel about it) —it is constant and valid because of its source, not its environment), because we already believe, having been born-again.

If, indeed a person is depending in any way on works, you are correct, IF that dependence is his form of faith. But that his terminology taken to its logical implications would mean he is depending on it, is not enough to condemn him. If indeed he is saved, his ACTUAL faith springing up from the REAL source —God Himself— one would hope his terminology succeeds it forthwith, but it is not necessarily so.

I am convinced I was saved from before I can remember, as my mother has told me, but I did not congeal a reasonable form of it in my mind until I was maybe 45 or 50. I did not know that all along, I had been depending on God's mercy to carry me through, not by my will, but by God's will.

 

[fastfredy0]

I understand, and thanks for the long reply, but, in the end, what saves is God's will and God's mercy and the blood of Christ, and God's applying it to us —NOT OUR APPLYING IT— so that our ignorance is not causal any more than our intelligence is. Our will also being a result and not a cause,

Agreed .... but if God has determined to give indications as to whether He has caused us to be amongst the chosen, then it is interesting to evaluate those indications. Like, if Joe never heard of Christ then that is a strong indication Joe is not saved. If Cindy believes Christ is God and believes she must be baptized if she is to be saved, then the indication is ...

 

[JesusFan]

I understand, and thanks for the long reply, but, in the end, what saves is God's will and God's mercy and the blood of Christ, and God's applying it to us —NOT OUR APPLYING IT— so that our ignorance is not causal any more than our intelligence is. Our will also being a result and not a cause, according to Ephesians 2 and John 1 and many other places, the FAITH through which we are saved is a gift of God, and is not of our own making. We believe. We do not create our belief. We will to believe, (inseparable from submission and love for God, (regardless of how we feel about it) —it is constant and valid because of its source, not its environment), because we already believe, having been born-again.

If, indeed a person is depending in any way on works, you are correct, IF that dependence is his form of faith. But that his terminology taken to its logical implications would mean he is depending on it, is not enough to condemn him. If indeed he is saved, his ACTUAL faith springing up from the REAL source —God Himself— one would hope his terminology succeeds it forthwith, but it is not necessarily so.

I am convinced I was saved from before I can remember, as my mother has told me, but I did not congeal a reasonable form of it in my mind until I was maybe 45 or 50. I did not know that all along, I had been depending on God's mercy to carry me through, not by my will, but by God's will.

As a calvinist, would see catholics being saved by th true Gospel, despite being under Rome false one, but once saved, must depart and come out from them

 

[makesends]

As a calvinist, would see catholics being saved by th true Gospel, despite being under Rome false one, but once saved, must depart and come out from them

I'm not suggesting that they should not, by duty/obedience, come out from them, but do you see it as a logically necessary consequence of regeneration? (That is, in the same way that Scriptures characterize the born-again, and those who love Christ, as obedient, would we expect these to leave the RCC? Some of them are simply ignorant of what the RCC teaches. Their minds don't work like yours.)

Is this question analogous to those who demanded circumcision on recent converts? Why not? (btw, I'm not saying it is, but I want to hear your reasoning, to see if it is more than just a revulsion to RCC.

 

[JesusFan]

I'm not suggesting that they should not, by duty/obedience, come out from them, but do you see it as a logically necessary consequence of regeneration? (That is, in the same way that Scriptures characterize the born-again, and those who love Christ, as obedient, would we expect these to leave the RCC? Some of them are simply ignorant of what the RCC teaches. Their minds don't work like yours.)

Is this question analogous to those who demanded circumcision on recent converts? Why not? (btw, I'm not saying it is, but I want to hear your reasoning, to see if it is more than just a revulsion to RCC.

Those who have been now saved and have received eternal life in Christ would want to now be involved in a local church that teaches and holds to true Gospel and true biblical theology, which Rome does not. its not out of hatred towards Catholics, but is due to one cannot fellowship and be spiritual yoked together with a Church that promotes falsehood and darkness, as that will not be helpful in their spiritual growing going forward

 

[makesends]

Those who have been now saved and have received eternal life in Christ would want to now be involved in a local church that teaches and holds to true Gospel and true biblical theology, which Rome does not. its not out of hatred towards Catholics, but is due to one cannot fellowship and be spiritual yoked together with a Church that promotes falsehood and darkness, as that will not be helpful in their spiritual growing going forward

As my dad used to say, "Some people just come to know the Lord." It is near impossible to know whether someone is or is not born again according to their [surface] works. It is easy to say that they are, or they are not, but only God knows. Some people never have a visible breaking point, nor lose their lust for sin, but only God knows what's really going on in there, and only God can judge them. Even the person himself cannot, in some —I'm guessing, many— cases.

Of course, I talk that, but... yeah, you would think there would be some sort of change. However, by claiming the logical sequence, we admit it is not necessarily temporally displayed.

 

[fastfredy0]

It is near impossible to know whether someone is or is not born again according to their [surface] works.

Seems to me we can know of some that are certainly going to hell if they die and had the following characters at the point of their deaths:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers [whose words are used as weapons to abuse, insult, humiliate, intimidate, or slander], nor swindlers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

 

[makesends]

Seems to me we can know of some that are certainly going to hell if they die and had the following characters at the point of their deaths:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers [whose words are used as weapons to abuse, insult, humiliate, intimidate, or slander], nor swindlers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

Are you going to use these norms to identify them? Is our righteousness going to identify us?

 

[fastfredy0]

Are you going to use these norms to identify them?

Yes ... I would guess with 99% accuracy. I admit I would not have gotten the thief on the cross correct unless I overheard Christ say the thief would be in paradise that day. Gee, just randomly guessing a person you have no clue about is going to hell will be correct most of the time. (Narrow is the gate)
I could also use the fact that knowledge of Christ is needed for salvation. This fact would enable one to identify billions of non-elect people who had died.
Seems that before Christ the chances of salvation were less than 1% for Gentiles. (Eph. 2:12)

Is our righteousness going to identify us?

Well, technically it would be our righteousness which the Spirit is the cause of said righteousness that would increase the chances of identifying members of the elect. It is much easier to identify the non-elect than the elect and as I mentioned, the analysis assumes the person will not change later on in life.
If the "age of accountability" doctrine is true, then identifying those members of the elect would be very accurate.

Example: I can tell from your writings that the odds are excellent that you are among the elect.

 

[JesusFan]

As my dad used to say, "Some people just come to know the Lord." It is near impossible to know whether someone is or is not born again according to their [surface] works. It is easy to say that they are, or they are not, but only God knows. Some people never have a visible breaking point, nor lose their lust for sin, but only God knows what's really going on in there, and only God can judge them. Even the person himself cannot, in some —I'm guessing, many— cases.

Of course, I talk that, but... yeah, you would think there would be some sort of change. However, by claiming the logical sequence, we admit it is not necessarily temporally displayed.

Those who have been saved should find a church setting much more acceptable to promoting spiritual health and maturity then Rome can supply

 

[JesusFan]

Are you going to use these norms to identify them? Is our righteousness going to identify us?

Our love for the brethren and the Lord should identify us, but the unsaved/lost will evidence that state and condition by how they habitual are living and acting

 

[makesends]

Those who have been now saved and have received eternal life in Christ would want to now be involved in a local church that teaches and holds to true Gospel and true biblical theology, which Rome does not. its not out of hatred towards Catholics, but is due to one cannot fellowship and be spiritual yoked together with a Church that promotes falsehood and darkness, as that will not be helpful in their spiritual growing going forward

Seems to me we can know of some that are certainly going to hell if they die and had the following characters at the point of their deaths:
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers [whose words are used as weapons to abuse, insult, humiliate, intimidate, or slander], nor swindlers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

Nor liars nor even the cowardly. Nor those who live like this: hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy.

Fortunately, Paul gives us guidance on how to handle such who, while claiming to believe, don't seem like it. We don't have to know whether they are elect, nor even saved, but: If they are "in" the Church, we should treat them as outsiders if their lives represent the works of the flesh.