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No Deal with the Devil: Christ's Ransom and the Justice of God

THAT is what the BIBLE says rather than “human notions”.
Therein lies my issue with “transferred wrath to preserve divine Justice” … it offers perfect “human notions” but lacks the “Bible notions” to support it.
Your issues are the result of your human notions, contrary to the word of God.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" needs no explanation (Dt 31:17).
The “cup” Jesus drank offers redemption; exactly the opposite of the cup of God’s wrath poured out to punish the wicked.
For those with eyes to see, the "cup" Jesus drank offers redemption only by paying the debt (death) owed for sin, thereby appeasing the wrath of God.
 
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Your issues are the result of your human notions, contrary to the word of God.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" needs no explanation (Dt 31:17).

For those with eyes to see, the "cup" Jesus drank offers redemption only by paying the debt (death) owed for sin, thereby appeasing the wrath of God.
Right. He drank the cup of God's wrath against sin and the sinner.
 
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" needs no explanation (Dt 31:17).
No indeed ... Psalm 22:1

Psalm 22:24 [NKJV] For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard.
 
I did not deny imputation, I question a Biblical foundation for any claim of transferred wrath.

Ezekiel 18 discusses in depth how God deals with guilt and innocence, punishment and forgiveness, within His economy of JUSTICE. The transfer of wrath from the guilty to the innocent is not discussed (one might say it is ‘anathema’ to what is discussed).
I certainly can see that. It is a perfectly logical conclusion (as is the Catholic and Lutheran narrative about the perpetual virginity of Mary). My issue is that
  1. The Scripture does not explicitly state that. (I posted what Jesus said HIS cup was).
  2. That “logic” violates God’s Justice as described by God himself in Ezekiel 18.
Thus my concerns with the assumed transfer of wrath.
Presumably you're talking about Ezekiel 18:20

Ezekiel 19-22
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

If so, how do you reconcile that with the following...

Exodus 20:4-6
You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:8-10
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any [e]likeness of what is in heaven above [f]or on the earth beneath [g]or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, even on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Numbers 14:11-19
And the LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people be disrespectful to Me? And how long will they not [e]believe in Me, despite all the signs that I have performed in their midst? I will strike them with plague and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they." But Moses said to the LORD, “Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for by Your strength You brought this people up from their midst, and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, LORD, are in the midst of this people, because You, LORD, are seen eye to eye, while Your cloud stands over them; and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day, and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if You put this people to death all at once, then the nations who have heard of Your fame will say, 'Since the LORD could not bring this people into the land which He promised them by oath, He slaughtered them in the wilderness.' So now, please, let the power of the Lord be great, just as You have declared, saying, 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in mercy, forgiving wrongdoing and violation of His Law; but He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.' Please forgive the guilt of this people in accordance with the greatness of Your mercy, just as You also have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

Did God change His mind?

Is it possible the reconciliation lies in the following?


Jeremiah 31:27-32
Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of mankind and the seed of animals, And just as I have watched over them to uproot them, tear them down, ruin, destroy, and bring disaster on them, so I will watch over them to build and to plant them,” declares the LORD. "In those days they will no longer say, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, but it is the children’s teeth that have become blunt.' But everyone will die for his own wrongdoing; each person who eats the sour grapes, his own teeth will become blunt. Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


So.....

Is it realistically possible the problem of "transferred wrath" did exist, but that problem was addressed in the new covenant?
 
That “logic” violates God’s Justice as described by God himself in Ezekiel 18.
I share @John Bauer's interest. How, exactly, does the premise of transferred wrath violate God's justice?

Let's provide some context for this inquiry. God would have been justified to wipe out the entire existence of humanity the minute Adam disobeyed God. Because every human has sinned and death has (already) come to all the reality is that we (sinful humanity) nothing more than air-breathing, blood-pumping corpses apart from salvation in Christ and God can justly do whatever He chooses with the rotting refuse that humanity has become. It is only by grace that humanity existed long enough for those of use gathered in this thread to come to Christ and discuss this op. Neither Ezekiel, nor any of those I cited in Post 104 occurs in the context of sinless humanity. Every single verse in every single book quoted and all the rest of scripture was written within the context of the entirety of humanity (except Jesus) being lost and enslaved to and dead in sin.

How, exactly, does the premise of transferred wrath violate God's justice?
 
What are we to make of imputation, then?
The devil is in the details.
What are we to make of "imputation"?
Let us start with all the verses in KJV that include the word "imputation" ... occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the KJV ... NKJV ... NIV ... ESV ...

So why don't YOU start with what YOU mean using Scripture, then I can agree or disagree with your interpretation based on an accurate understanding of what you speak.

Do you affirm the symmetrical imputation in Pauline theology—our sin to him, his righteousness to us?
Since you mention "Pauline" and "sin" and "righteousness" together, I assume you had this in mind:

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 [ESV]​

What do you make of "to be sin" in that verse?
What do you make of "in him" in that verse?
Are these "throw away clauses" that should not get in the way of preconceived Doctrines?

Perhaps you had "Petrine" rather than "Pauline" in mind ...

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." - 1 Peter 2:24 [ESV]​
 
The devil is in the details.
What are we to make of "imputation"?
Let us start with all the verses in KJV that include the word "imputation" ... occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the KJV ... NKJV ... NIV ... ESV ...

So why don't YOU start with what YOU mean using Scripture, then I can agree or disagree with your interpretation based on an accurate understanding of what you speak.
Why are you limiting the discussion to the KJV and using that bias to avoid addressing the point of imputation.
Since you mention "Pauline" and "sin" and "righteousness" together, I assume you had this in mind:

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 [ESV]​

What do you make of "to be sin" in that verse?
What do you make of "in him" in that verse?
Are these "throw away clauses" that should not get in the way of preconceived Doctrines?

Perhaps you had "Petrine" rather than "Pauline" in mind ...

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." - 1 Peter 2:24 [ESV]​
Answering questions with other questions is not an answer to anything. You, presumably, have the ability to define terms as you understand them and post that understanding here so that we thereby understand your understanding and how it answers the questions asked without shifting the onus or further obfuscating the discussion.

That said, it is critically important terms be defined, defined correctly, and defined so that everyone understands and uses terms with mutual understanding of their correct meaning. The dictionary definition of the word "impute," is simply to assign, credit, or charge someone with a given condition. Theologically speaking, imputation is the crediting of a condition to someone, on their behalf, or to their account. In the context of this thread imputation has to do with the assigning or crediting of sin or righteousness to humans after Adam's disobedience brought sin into the world.

If that is a definition amenable to everyone then the questions previously asked remain to be answered and answered within the specified context of Christ's ransom.
 
Presumably you're talking about Ezekiel 18:20
No, not a single verse but the entire chapter. The chapter is a discussion from God on GOD's POV and contrasting it with Man's POV on what constitutes "Justice". God and Man were in disagreement on what is "fair" ... "The ways of the Lord are not fair" is the refrain from the people and "It is your ways that are not fair, not My Ways" is the response from God.

So what does God have to say about those that obey and those that rebel? [God defining HIS standard of Justice.]
  • If a man obeys, he will live and not die.
  • If a man rebels, he will die.
  • The man who obeys will live BECAUSE of HIS obedience and the man that rebels will die BECAUSE of HIS rebellion.
  • The obedience or rebellion of your family plays no part in your fate [contrary to the laws and logic of men].
What does GOD SAY in Ezekiel 18 about the obedient Man that turns away to REBELLION and the rebellious Man that turns towards OBEDIENCE?
  • The good of the man that turns to REBELLION will be FORGOTTEN.
  • The evil of the man that turns to OBEDIENCE will be FORGOTTEN.
Ezekiel 18:20 is good, but Ezekiel 18:32 is better ... [ESV] "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." Is not the essence of Transferring our wrath to Jesus for punishment by the Father to satisfy Justice that God DOES take pleasure in the death of someone: God DEMANDS it!

I posit a God with the power to "forgive" sins ... actually forgive and not merely transfer punishment.
I will hapilly change my mind, but it will require explicit teaching from scripture and there were Christians a long time before men settled on PSA as THE ANSWER. (so I suspect there is only "implicit" - read between the lines - and no "explicit" scripture on PSA).
 
Why are you limiting the discussion to the KJV and using that bias to avoid addressing the point of imputation.
I only started with KJV. I got the same results with "NKJV ... NIV ... ESV ..." [was it really necessary to search EVERY translation to make the point?]
"imputation" is a human theological term and before "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with it and being led by the nose down a Rabbit Hole, I simply requested a SCRIPTURAL definition of what he meant by the term so that I could offer an interpretation of what SCRIPTURE says (not an argument over what men believe).
 
No, not a single verse but the entire chapter. The chapter is a discussion from God on GOD's POV and contrasting it with Man's POV on what constitutes "Justice". God and Man were in disagreement on what is "fair" ... "The ways of the Lord are not fair" is the refrain from the people and "It is your ways that are not fair, not My Ways" is the response from God.

So what does God have to say about those that obey and those that rebel? [God defining HIS standard of Justice.]
  • If a man obeys, he will live and not die.
  • If a man rebels, he will die.
  • The man who obeys will live BECAUSE of HIS obedience and the man that rebels will die BECAUSE of HIS rebellion.
  • The obedience or rebellion of your family plays no part in your fate [contrary to the laws and logic of men].
What does GOD SAY in Ezekiel 18 about the obedient Man that turns away to REBELLION and the rebellious Man that turns towards OBEDIENCE?
  • The good of the man that turns to REBELLION will be FORGOTTEN.
  • The evil of the man that turns to OBEDIENCE will be FORGOTTEN.
Ezekiel 18:20 is good, but Ezekiel 18:32 is better ... [ESV] "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." Is not the essence of Transferring our wrath to Jesus for punishment by the Father to satisfy Justice that God DOES take pleasure in the death of someone: God DEMANDS it!

I posit a God with the power to "forgive" sins ... actually forgive and not merely transfer punishment.
I will hapilly change my mind, but it will require explicit teaching from scripture and there were Christians a long time before men settled on PSA as THE ANSWER. (so I suspect there is only "implicit" - read between the lines - and no "explicit" scripture on PSA).
Great. You've clarified your reference but not answered the question asked. I posted several verses that explicitly states the exact opposite of Ezekiel 18. The arguments are, therefore, multiple passages in the Bible versus one passage in the Bible. Defining precedent in the Bible verses a subsequent statement removed from its precedent. Surely you agree scripture should not be pitted against scripture in contradiction. I appreciate the clarification, but.....

How do you reconcile Ezekiel 18 with Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5, Numbers 14, and any other text that explicitly states God does visit the sins of the fathers upon subsequent generations?

Do you think Jeremiah 31 provides the answer?
 
I only started with KJV. I got the same results with "NKJV ... NIV ... ESV ..." [was it really necessary to search EVERY translation to make the point?]
"imputation" is a human theological term and before "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with it and being led by the nose down a Rabbit Hole, I simply requested a SCRIPTURAL definition of what he meant by the term so that I could offer an interpretation of what SCRIPTURE says (not an argument over what men believe).
Let's clarify the point. The concept of "imputation" is, indeed, and theological concept as it applies to the conditions of sin and righteousness. I've defined the term and that definition is either correct and therefore amenable to all or in need for a correct, mutually amenable, and mutually agreed upon definition so either affirm the definition provided or define the term as you mean for us to use it without further delay. The exact word "imputation" does not mean to be used in scripture for the concept to have veracity but if you would like to use a more correct, more accurate, word for what scripture does, in fact use then please do so without further delay.
I simply requested a SCRIPTURAL definition of what he meant by the term so that I could offer an interpretation of what SCRIPTURE says (not an argument over what men believe).
And I provided one.


...it is critically important terms be defined, defined correctly, and defined so that everyone understands and uses terms with mutual understanding of their correct meaning. The dictionary definition of the word "impute," is simply to assign, credit, or charge someone with a given condition. Theologically speaking, imputation is the crediting of a condition to someone, on their behalf, or to their account. In the context of this thread imputation has to do with the assigning or crediting of sin or righteousness to humans after Adam's disobedience brought sin into the world.​

Can we now move the conversation forward? You dispute the premise of God assigning sin, or the consequences of one individual's or group's sin to another individual or group. What is the basis of that dispute given the fact Ezekiel 18 does not define the matter contrary to all the scriptural texts I posted?
 
And I provided one.
Yet YOU are not HIM (unless you are a "sock-pupet" for the person to whom I originally posted), so YOU cannot tell me what HE was thinking.

However, I am tagging out of this tag-team. Carry on with each other.
 
Yet YOU are not HIM (unless you are a "sock-pupet" for the person to whom I originally posted), so YOU cannot tell me what HE was thinking.
Non sequitur. The premise of clandestine collaboration is hilarious given the simple, observable, fact I asked about something new: how are the seemingly disparate texts of scripture to be reconciled? 🤔🤔🤔 If they cannot be reconciled then perhaps the original premise should be discarded. If they can be reconciled, then an answer should be forthcoming and not avoided. I even suggested one possibility as an aid.

No "sock-pupets" wanted, needed, or existent.
However, I am tagging out of this tag-team. Carry on with each other.
🤨 People sharing similar points of view does not mean anyone is "tag-teaming." I allowed and invited you to define the term as you think it should be defined (something that should have been done at the outset of the dissent).
 
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