John 5:25-26

[Rella]

So certain I had posted this that when asked what the replies were by a Christian brother
I said I would check it out.

I , obviously , have gotten to the age where I believe I have done things that never were done.

NOW:

John 5: 25-26 says this.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

I am well aware of the context leading up to these two verses....

WHAT DO THEY MEAN? They sound as if the dead who hear , if they hear what Jesus is saying, will live.... Is this a second chance? It does not say some of the dead, suggesting all of the dead.

What am I missing? VS 27 says all who are in the tombs are going to hear his voice... not just the elect.

vs 27-29~ 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eleanor]

So certain I had posted this that when asked what the replies were by a Christian brother
I said I would check it out.
I , obviously , have gotten to the age where I believe I have done things that never were done.
NOW:
John 5: 25-26 says this.
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

This refers to both
1) Christ giving new life now, to some of the spiritually dead, as well as
1) the resurrection, giving life to all the physically dead.

I am well aware of the context leading up to these two verses....

WHAT DO THEY MEAN? They sound as if the dead who hear , if they hear what Jesus is saying, will live.... Is this a second chance? It does not say some of the dead, suggesting all of the dead.

This refers to the spiritually dead, not to the physically dead.

What am I missing? VS 27 says all who are in the tombs are going to hear his voice... not just the elect.

This refers to the resurrection of all the physically dead, saved and unsaved.

vs 27-29~ 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Josheb]

I am well aware of the context leading up to these two verses....

Give us a little info to evidence that.

WHAT DO THEY MEAN? They sound as if the dead who hear , if they hear what Jesus is saying, will live.... Is this a second chance? It does not say some of the dead, suggesting all of the dead.

That is not what the text says, so why does it sound that way to you?

What am I missing? VS 27 says all who are in the tombs are going to hear his voice... not just the elect.

He says the dead hear him at the time he spoke those words. What do you make of that?

vs 27-29~ 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

When did that happen?

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

When did that happen?

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

When did that happen?

 

[Rella]

Josheb repliedYesterday at 6:51 PM

I am well aware of the context leading up to these two verses....

Give us a little info to evidence that.

HMMM.... well, in a nutshell Jesus was challenged for having healed (worked on the Sabbath) and His every so perfect reply of
“My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” which only made the Jews angrier....

Is that enough or do you want what transpired up to the verses in question?

WHAT DO THEY MEAN? They sound as if the dead who hear , if they hear what Jesus is saying, will live.... Is this a second chance? It does not say some of the dead, suggesting all of the dead.

That is not what the text says, so why does it sound that way to you?

My NASB95 text reads 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

It says exactly that...." the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God", " and those who hear will live."
What it does not say is that some of the dead will hear and live... it said dead.... meaning all????

And further says in vs 26 "Son also to have life in Himself"
Which tells us that life giving existed in Christ Jesus , the Son of God.

What am I missing? VS 27 says all who are in the tombs are going to hear his voice... not just the elect.

He says the dead hear him at the time he spoke those words. What do you make of that?

That's what I am asking you. AND specifically it is said are going to.... as in future.

vs 27-29~ 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

When did that happen?

I dont know. I would suppose before eternity past when plans were being set up for this existence of ours. Or possibly
upon Christ Jesus' mortal birth. Certainly no later then when He began His ministry and that does not matter to the question at hand that if all heard HIM... from their graves.... that those who hear.... live. So, is this a second chance for some because not to belabor a well worn phrase but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God....?

Could that possibly mean... Just askin.... that all the dead will hear Christ Jesus, and for those who hear and understand come to faith and are given that 2nd chance while in the grave.....?

We have been told. At least I have, though none of us had died to confirm this. I dont think..... That when we die our spirits return to
God who gave them to us. Our bodies go into the grave/ or are cremated.... BUT the jury is still out as to where our souls go.
NO... The soul and spirit are not the same.....
They either have to stay with the body, or somewhere.

Many of us have been taught... though not all believe.... of Jesus saving act of Christ to the souls in Hades between His crucifixion and resurrection. That of course was 2000 plus years ago.

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

When did that happen?

Not yet. It says... is coming, and will hear.

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

When did that happen?

That will be at the JUDGEMENT. Not before.

Then you are saying that everyone will, at judgement hear His voice and be made alive to to receive their judgement? Good or Bad? Alright, I see this.

"those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

So there is no possibility of the bad dead hearing His voice and coming to understanding, and living saved in eternity?

But then what of " of Jesus saving act of Christ to the souls in Hades between His crucifixion and resurrection.?

Bakers definition; (quite a good description)

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/hades/

Greek term widely used to denote the deity of the underworld and the abode of the dead. The New Testament use of Hades (hades [a&/dh"]) builds on its Hebrew parallel, Sheol (se'ol), which was the preferred translation in the Septuagint.

The Old Testament. Sheol refers primarily to death and the abode of the dead, both godly and ungodly ( Gen 37:25 ; Psalm 16:10 ; 88:10- 12 ; Isa 14:9 ).

 

[Josheb]

Josheb repliedYesterday at 6:51 PM

Give us a little info to evidence that.

HMMM.... well, in a nutshell Jesus was challenged for having healed (worked on the Sabbath) and His every so perfect reply of
“My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” which only made the Jews angrier....

Is that enough or do you want what transpired up to the verses in question?

It's good and correct, but meager. The verses asked about in the opening post occur following a string of healings that began in the previous chapter as Jesus left Jerusalem and headed into Galilee and Samaria. His preaching establishes the validity of his authority by appealing to his power and authority, which he follows up with the witnesses of John, the Father, and Tanakh.... but right in between he moves from healing and its soteriological implications to eschatology. That was very controversial because the orthodox position in Jewish theology was there was only one life; you died and that was it. The Pharisees and the Essenes arose in the intertestamental period, and they were minority views. One of the chief distinctions between the Sads and the Phars is the Pharisaic belief there is life after death, there is a resurrection.

Every time Jesus is read speaking about the resurrection in the gospels it should be understood his words divided the Jews and it was the minority population in any given crowd that had any agreement with him. Jesus repeatedly affirmed the Pharisaic position even while he constantly contested and rebuked both religious sects.

MORE IMPORTANTLY..... John's gospel emphasizes the deity of Christ (as opposed to say Matthew's, which emphasizes his humanity and kingship). John opens his gospel borrowing from the Hellenist Jewish philosopher Philo. Philo called Alexander the logos of God (in Greek philosophy logos, or reason, was gifted to humanity by the gods) had written about Alexander the Great being the great mediator between God and Man, but Alexander was not himself a god and Alexander died and stayed dead. The preamble to John's gospel implicitly rebukes both Hellenist-influenced Jewish theology and Greek philosophy. In John's gospel Jesus is the logos AND is God. Jesus is not a man simply gifted with reason by the gods, he IS the logos of God made flesh that IS God.

So by the time chapter 5 rolls around Jesus' divinity, power, and authority has been established and by the time verses 25-26 come up Jesus' preaching has expanded beyond the kingdom on earth but to eternal matters.

 

[Josheb]

That is not what the text says, so why does it sound that way to you?

My NASB95 text reads 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

It says exactly that...." the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God", " and those who hear will live."
What it does not say is that some of the dead will hear and live... it said dead.... meaning all????

And further says in vs 26 "Son also to have life in Himself"
Which tells us that life giving existed in Christ Jesus , the Son of God.


He says the dead hear him at the time he spoke those words. What do you make of that?

The dead hear him.

The opening posts states, "....They sound as if the dead who hear, if they hear what Jesus is saying...." There's no "if" in the scriptural text. Why is the "if" added?

 

[Josheb]

When was Jesus given "authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man"? (vs. 5:27)

Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?


If so, then there are three answers to this:

1. Since Jesus is God he has ALWAYS had authority to execute judgment, and he has had that authority everywhere in creation and there has never been a single fraction of moment when he did not possess that authority.
2. As the incarnate son, the fulfillment of God's prophecies, the Messiah, King of all Kings, and High Priest, he had authority from the moment he was conceived.
3. As the one who alone defeated death, was resurrected and ascended, he has been given the name above all other names, the rule above all rule and one of his last words to the disciples was "All power and authority have been given to me....." (Mt. 28:18).

This is important because there are many cults that deny the nature of Christ in one way or another, and there are many within orthodox Christianity who either hold a dualistic view of Jesus as King or deny his kingship until he physically comes to earth and establishes an earthly monarchy.


Jesus already has the authority to execute judgment. He possessed it from the beginning. He possessed it at his incarnation. He possessed it at his resurrection. Therefore, when his discourse shifts in at verse 25 and 26 in chapter 5, he is teaching from that already established position of authority both eternal and temporal, Divine and human, past, present and future.

He then proceeds to appeal to John the Baptist (the returning Elijah), the miracles of healing that have preceded verses 25-26, God Almighty (whom he has claimed is his Father - not Abraham) and the entirety of scripture (Tanakh).

 

[Josheb]

What am I missing? VS 27 says all who are in the tombs are going to hear his voice... not just the elect.

He says the dead hear him at the time he spoke those words. What do you make of that?

View attachment 579 That's what I am asking you. AND specifically it is said are going to.... as in future.

When Jesus says the dead hear him, I read it exactly as written: the dead heard him and they heard him exactly right then and there.

About which "dead" is he talking?

The dead people buried in the ground? The dead people buried in the ground who are dead in sin? The physically living people who are dead in sin?

Remember, in orthodox Judaism the dead hear nothing. If Jesus is saying those who are dead and buried in the ground hear then he is implicitly repudiating the Sadducean view and orthodox Judaism's eschatology. If he is talking about the dead in sin then that's also controversial, but in a different way that will digress from the current point but, to put it succinctly, the Jews considered sin to be a mostly civil - not criminal - matter. Satan had stolen creation from God's people and they, the Jews, had a just petition against satan to God. They did not see that THEY were in need (they were the chosen people); they were most certainly NOT dead in sin.

But at that point in history the epistolary hadn't been written so soteriological content t I just posted was not understood by his audience. It's applicable but not understood.

I encourage you to not limit your inquiry to just the two verses, 25-26. Verse 25 states the time has come AND is coming. Either this is two separate events, or an ongoing event that has already begun. The future aspects are 1) the hearing dead becoming the hearing living, and 2) a resurrection of either life or judgment.

Personally, I think there are two applications. One is soteriological and the other eschatological, and the two overlap. The two often overlap in scripture. The Greek word used for "resurrection," simply means "rise" or "raise" and it is not specifically denotative of the Christian theological physical resurrection from the grave. Jesus' comments would indicate an eschatological emphasis, but Calvary is also a specific point of life versus judgement.





Gotta go. I'll address the rest of Post #4 but let me send you to 1 Peter 3:18-22, as well as how Isaiah 6:9 is used in the New Testament for some contemplation.