Jesus tells us directly what causes one to be lost.

[Mercy_Shown]

I have been pouring over scriptures studying what the bible has to say about the theology of salvation. As with most human constructs, I cannot find where God's plan of salvation fits nicely into TULIP or the Arminian tendencies toward Grace Plus. As I studied this I remembered an often-overlooked passage quoting Jesus. It is often overlooked because it comes directly after arguably the most famous passage in the bible: John 3:16.

It is found a couple of doors down in John 3:19-20 and here we read exactly what the verdict of the damned will be based on. I will quote from the Amplified translation. "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned."

Here we find that the natural state of mankind is darkness. In this darkness, there was no light. There was no chance to know anything but darkness. A person could not save himself or herself or even know any truth about spiritual things. But God sent his light to this world. What seems to separate the saints from the damned is their reaction to the light.

This is probably a visceral reaction and not a purposeful action at first. But suffice it to say that as those who approach the light come closer and closer, their sins and filthiness are exposed but they do not draw back. They continue forward having their evil deeds exposed and condemned. Note that they are not condemned but their deeds are.

Those who see in the light their evil deeds and their eminent exposure and condemnation and shrink from the light to protect their cherished sins are judged and sentenced to eternal ruin. The biases of judgment lies in what and whom we love. And it appears to directly come from our relationship with sin. Do we love it or hate it once the light exposes it to us.

 

[Mr GLee]

I have been pouring over scriptures studying what the bible has to say about the theology of salvation. As with most human constructs, I cannot find where God's plan of salvation fits nicely into TULIP or the Arminian tendencies toward Grace Plus. As I studied this I remembered an often-overlooked passage quoting Jesus. It is often overlooked because it comes directly after arguably the most famous passage in the bible: John 3:16.

It is found a couple of doors down in John 3:19-20 and here we read exactly what the verdict of the damned will be based on. I will quote from the Amplified translation. "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned."

Here we find that the natural state of mankind is darkness. In this darkness, there was no light. There was no chance to know anything but darkness. A person could not save himself or herself or even know any truth about spiritual things. But God sent his light to this world. What seems to separate the saints from the damned is their reaction to the light.

This is probably a visceral reaction and not a purposeful action at first. But suffice it to say that as those who approach the light come closer and closer, their sins and filthiness are exposed but they do not draw back. They continue forward having their evil deeds exposed and condemned. Note that they are not condemned but their deeds are.

Those who see in the light their evil deeds and their eminent exposure and condemnation and shrink from the light to protect their cherished sins are judged and sentenced to eternal ruin. The biases of judgment lies in what and whom we love. And it appears to directly come from our relationship with sin. Do we love it or hate it once the light exposes it to us.

Well said.

In one sense to me it would be like looking into a mirror and forgetting about the face looking back. (Face to face)

Remember God cannot only create light temporal But his very essence is Light .He introduced himself to darkness when he said "let there be my presence" Light and it was God good.

He was the light of the world the first three days and in the new heavens no Sun or moon no corruption time clock winding down to the last day under the sun . His Light will return but no more night. Same with Love . God is Love and not only can he exercise it We walk in His loving light, the gospel

 

[CrowCross]

I have been pouring over scriptures studying what the bible has to say about the theology of salvation. As with most human constructs, I cannot find where God's plan of salvation fits nicely into TULIP or the Arminian tendencies toward Grace Plus. As I studied this I remembered an often-overlooked passage quoting Jesus. It is often overlooked because it comes directly after arguably the most famous passage in the bible: John 3:16.

It is found a couple of doors down in John 3:19-20 and here we read exactly what the verdict of the damned will be based on. I will quote from the Amplified translation. "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned."

Here we find that the natural state of mankind is darkness. In this darkness, there was no light. There was no chance to know anything but darkness. A person could not save himself or herself or even know any truth about spiritual things. But God sent his light to this world. What seems to separate the saints from the damned is their reaction to the light.

This is probably a visceral reaction and not a purposeful action at first. But suffice it to say that as those who approach the light come closer and closer, their sins and filthiness are exposed but they do not draw back. They continue forward having their evil deeds exposed and condemned. Note that they are not condemned but their deeds are.

Those who see in the light their evil deeds and their eminent exposure and condemnation and shrink from the light to protect their cherished sins are judged and sentenced to eternal ruin. The biases of judgment lies in what and whom we love. And it appears to directly come from our relationship with sin. Do we love it or hate it once the light exposes it to us.

Why would one approach the light and another walk away? It's the same light...right?

 

[Josheb]

................I cannot find where God's plan of salvation fits nicely into TULIP.....................

Here we find that the natural state of mankind is darkness. In this darkness, there was no light. There was no chance to know anything but darkness.

?????

Do you realize those two statements contradict each other? Do you realize the "T" in TULIP stands for the position the natural state of mankind is darkness and there is no chance to know anything but darkness (unless God and God alone graciously acts to change that condition).

I have been pouring over scriptures studying what the bible has to say about the theology of salvation. As with most human constructs, I cannot find where God's plan of salvation fits nicely into TULIP............

Your own opening post shows your own study confirms what we now call "Total Depravity."

 

[Josheb]

..........................As I studied this I remembered an often-overlooked passage quoting Jesus. It is often overlooked because it comes directly after arguably the most famous passage in the bible: John 3:16.

It is found a couple of doors down in John 3:19-20 and here we read exactly what the verdict of the damned will be based on. I will quote from the Amplified translation. "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned."

Here we find that the natural state of mankind is darkness.

First, that passage does NOT state "The natural state of mankind is darkness." It simply states men love darkness, not that they are naturally in darkness. There are other verses in the Bible that do talk about the "natural" state of sinful humans, but that is not what John 3:19-20 actually states.

Second, would you agree with me that the "light" in John 3:19-20 is Jesus? Notice the translation used in the op capitalizes Light, indicating the Light is God, or Jesus (see John 1:4-9) . Therefore, what the verse that was left out states is that those practice the truth comes to God/Jesus, the Light that has come into the world AND do so that his deeds may be seen as wrought in God (not the unregenerate sinner's own flesh).

John 3:21
But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

It is only those who follow Jesus that do not walk in darkness (Jn. 8:12), and those who walk in the darkness or night do not have any light in them (Jn. 11:10). It is an all-or-nothing blunt dichotomy for John, and one that is wholly predicated on the agency of God, not the sinner.

So, your studies turn out to confirm Calvinism in more than one way but that hasn't yet been realized. Perhaps that is because of the apprehension against, "human constructs," and the mistaken belief Calvinism is a human construct and not one built wholly from scripture first.


.

 

[Josheb]

Those who see in the light their evil deeds and their eminent exposure and condemnation and shrink from the light to protect their cherished sins are judged and sentenced to eternal ruin.

This too is a misuse of what is stated in the John 3:16-21 text. It also contradicts the premise mankind is naturally in darkness, where there is no light, and has no chance to know anything but darkness! If they are in darkness and in the darkness, there is no light and they have no chance to know anything but darkness then how do they "see in the light"? How do they see anything in the light while they are in the darkness?

What the verse states is folks will not come into the light because of fear. What's the fear? Their deeds will be seen; their deeds will be seen for what they are. In other words, those in darkness live in fear. They fear seeing their deeds for what they are. They do not see "emminent exposure." They do not see condemnation. They are already condemned simply because they haven't believed in the name of God's resurrected Son! The verse does not state the "shrink" from the light; it simply states they do not come to it. There's no reason to add any shrinking. There's no need to add any protection of their sins. And as far as the "judged" goes the fear of seeing their deeds for what they are is an implicit acknowledgment the fear is judgment based.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why would one approach the light and another walk away? It's the same light...right?

No. It is not the same light. Men preach themselves and very little of the "Light".... We are the reason why people believe or not.

Php 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
Php 2:20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state.
Php 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This too is a misuse of what is stated in the John 3:16-21 text. It also contradicts the premise mankind is naturally in darkness, where there is no light, and has no chance to know anything but darkness! If they are in darkness and in the darkness, there is no light and they have no chance to know anything but darkness then how do they "see in the light"? How do they see anything in the light while they are in the darkness?

What the verse states is folks will not come into the light because of fear. What's the fear? Their deeds will be seen; their deeds will be seen for what they are. In other words, those in darkness live in fear. They fear seeing their deeds for what they are. They do not see "emminent exposure." They do not see condemnation. They are already condemned simply because they haven't believed in the name of God's resurrected Son! The verse does not state the "shrink" from the light; it simply states they do not come to it. There's no reason to add any shrinking. There's no need to add any protection of their sins. And as far as the "judged" goes the fear of seeing their deeds for what they are is an implicit acknowledgment the fear is judgment based.

Total Depravity includes the very real facts that you yourself might be delusional to the point of preaching what you've heard from others without possessing the reality of being "chosen".

Your comments above confirm this possibility. Why would you leave yourself out of this?

 

[Josheb]

Total Depravity includes the very real facts that you yourself might be delusional to the point of preaching what you've heard from others without possessing the reality of being "chosen".

Your comments above confirm this possibility. Why would you leave yourself out of this?

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?

 

[praise_yeshua]

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?

Everyone. You know the "all men" context that Calvinist only apply to others.

 

[His clay]

Everyone. You know the "all men" context that Calvinist only apply to others.

You've ignored the category called Christians, whom God graciously works in and changes (regeneration 101). Why use such a blatant selective evidence fallacy?

 

[His clay]

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?

Is was, apparently, too difficult of a question to get the most rudimentary basics right. py stumbles hard over the basics.

 

[Josheb]

Is was, apparently, too difficult of a question to get the most rudimentary basics right. py stumbles hard over the basics.

Yeah. Let me have the discussion with him that needs having .

 

[Josheb]

Everyone. You know the "all men" context that Calvinist only apply to others.

No. That is NOT what the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches. The question is not, "According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that was totally depraved?" Just to make sure posts 7 and 8 were not posted in sheer, unadulterated, profound ignorance I will ask the question again and give you an opportunity to answer the question correctly.

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?


.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is was, apparently, too difficult of a question to get the most rudimentary basics right. py stumbles hard over the basics.

I do? We can discuss.

1. Are you total depraved?
2. Have you ever been total depraved?
3. What is the evidence you're no longer total depraved?

If God works in you then why do you still act total depraved?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yeah. Let me have the discussion with him that needs having .

Are you a "physician"?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. That is NOT what the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches. The question is not, "According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that was totally depraved?" Just to make sure posts 7 and 8 were not posted in sheer, unadulterated, profound ignorance I will ask the question again and give you an opportunity to answer the question correctly.

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?


.

Why not answer the question yourself?

1. Are you total depraved?
2. Have you ever been total depraved?
3. What is the evidence you're no longer total depraved?

If God works in you then why do you still act total depraved?

I don't believe in Total Depravity. Anything with life at all can't be total depraved. It is impossible. The breath of God is in all men or they would be physically dead. Yes, The dead know nothing. They are dead. Absent the breath of God.

 

[Josheb]

Are you a "physician"?

I will gladly answer every question you ask me, and I will do so directly and immediately once you have demonstrated an ability to do the same by answering the questions first asked you. Multiple posters have observed you do not have the doctrine correct so I am giving you the opportunity to prove them all wrong by answering this one very vail and op-relevant question and you are dodging it.


According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?


Just answer the question asked so the conversation can move forward without further delay, digression, or obfuscation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I will gladly answer every question you ask me, and I will do so directly and immediately once you have demonstrated an ability to do the same by answering the questions first asked you. Multiple posters have observed you do not have the doctrine correct so I am giving you the opportunity to prove them all wrong by answering this one very vail and op-relevant question and you are dodging it.


According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?


Just answer the question asked so the conversation can move forward without further delay, digression, or obfuscation.

I will gladly answer every question you ask me, and I will do so directly and immediately once you have demonstrated an ability to do the same

Why post such when the same is equally true of you?

I also followed up with question to narrow the focus of your own condition.

 

[Josheb]

I will gladly answer every question you ask me, and I will do so directly and immediately once you have demonstrated an ability to do the same

Why post such when the same is equally true of you?

I also followed up with question to narrow the focus of your own condition.

According to the doctrine of Total Depravity, who is it that is totally depraved?