If it's True That Justification by Faith ...

[brightfame52]

More on Justification before Faith !

The Justification that all men have who Christ died for, and that without them doing anything, they have it even while they are His Enemies Rom 5:10, it consists in forgiveness of sins Eph 1:7, which does correlate with non imputation of sin Rom 4:7-8, whereby the sins forgiven are never charged to their account against them, it also denotes God accepting them into His Divine Favor as being Just, Righteous, and accepts them as if they have never sinned; and again this is before they believe or obey the Gospel !

 

[Eleanor]

More on Justification before Faith !

The Justification that all men have who Christ died for, and that without them doing anything, they have it even while they are His Enemies Rom 5:10, it consists in forgiveness of sins Eph 1:7, which does correlate with non imputation of sin Rom 4:7-8, whereby the sins forgiven are never charged to their account against them, it also denotes God accepting them into His Divine Favor as being Just, Righteous, and accepts them as if they have never sinned; and again this is before they believe or obey the Gospel !

And then there is the apostolic teaching (Ro 3:28) of Christ (Lk 10:16) of justification by faith, not before faith.

 

[Eleanor]

. . .

 

[brightfame52]

And then there is the apostolic teaching (Ro 3:28) of Christ (Lk 10:16) of justification by faith, not before faith.

Yes before Faith, Christ Justified His People by Hs Death b4 they have Faith, Faith embraces what Christ did. So justification by Faith is another way of saying Justified by Christ.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes before Faith, Christ Justified His People by Hs Death b4 they have Faith, Faith embraces what Christ did. So justification by Faith is another way of saying Justified by Christ.

A believer in the Gospel is a person who believes this is the nature and case of the world we live in.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes before Faith, Christ Justified His People by Hs Death b4 they have Faith, Faith embraces what Christ did. So justification by Faith is another way of saying Justified by Christ.

Which disagrees with Ro 3:28 that justification is by faith.

I'm goin' with Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Which disagrees with Ro 3:28 that justification is by faith.

I'm goin' with Scripture.

If you ask me, you aren't going with scripture, Justification by Faith is acknowledging Justification by Christ, His Person and Work

 

[Eleanor]

If you ask me, you aren't going with scripture, Justification by Faith is acknowledging Justification by Christ, His Person and Work

Are you sure about that?

Ro 3:28: ". . .a man is justified (declared righeous) by faith. . ."

Justification is simply the declaration of the righteousness.

The righteosness itself is the result of faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you sure about that?

Ro 3:28: ". . .a man is justified (declared righeous) by faith. . ."

Justification is simply the declaration of the righteousness.

The righteosness itself is the result of faith.

Yes Im sure. Faith receives the knowledge of what Christ has done and accomplished for His People

 

[makesends]

Eleanor said:
And then there is the apostolic teaching (Ro 3:28) of Christ (Lk 10:16) of justification by faith, not before faith.

Yes before Faith, Christ Justified His People by Hs Death b4 they have Faith, Faith embraces what Christ did. So justification by Faith is another way of saying Justified by Christ.

You aren't understanding @Eleanor, I think. She is not saying that we are not justified by what Christ did, but that those two verses show that the apostles teach that we are justified by faith. This means that your arrangement of "pre-justification" does not logically work. WHEN it happened is not the point of justification, but HOW it happened. God does not depend on time to decree what happens in time.

MOD HAT: Anyhow we need to be careful this doesn't just descend into bickering, mere repetition, ok? I used to tell my kids, "If you can't play nicely, I will take it away from you!"

 

[makesends]

Are you sure about that?

Ro 3:28: ". . .a man is justified (declared righeous) by faith. . ."

Justification is simply the declaration of the righteousness.

The righteosness itself is the result of faith.

Yes Im sure. Faith receives the knowledge of what Christ has done and accomplished for His People

I thought up till now that @brightfame52 agreed with most of the rest of us that salvific faith was not OUR effort, but the work of GOD. Do I have that wrong, Brightfame? What you seem to be objecting to here, is that if the righteousness itself is the result of faith, then it is the result of our works... @Eleanor isn't saying that we are justified by any effort WE extend.

 

[brightfame52]

I thought up till now that @brightfame52 agreed with most of the rest of us that salvific faith was not OUR effort, but the work of GOD. Do I have that wrong, Brightfame? What you seem to be objecting to here, is that if the righteousness itself is the result of faith, then it is the result of our works... @Eleanor isn't saying that we are justified by any effort WE extend.

Not so much the source of Faith, but the object of Faith. I believe the scripture teaches that Christs Justifying Death is the object of Faith, so the Object of Faith, Christ and His finished Justifying work, exists b4 Faith receives the knowledge of it.

 

[makesends]

Not so much the source of Faith, but the object of Faith. I believe the scripture teaches that Christs Justifying Death is the object of Faith, so the Object of Faith, Christ and His finished Justifying work, exists b4 Faith receives the knowledge of it.

Christ himself being the object of faith, and what he did being the facts involved in faith, no? Nevertheless, the unregenerated cannot have that faith—it being the gift of God. Not so much the ability to believe, being given, subject to subsequent choice, but TO believe being directly given the regenerate, by the Spirit of God now indwelling the born again—it being endemic to being born again. It is not OUR work to believe. It is the work of God, to believe. / ("...that [we] believe"). (John 6:29)

 

[brightfame52]

Christ himself being the object of faith, and what he did being the facts involved in faith, no? Nevertheless, the unregenerated cannot have that faith—it being the gift of God. Not so much the ability to believe, being given, subject to subsequent choice, but TO believe being directly given the regenerate, by the Spirit of God now indwelling the born again—it being endemic to being born again. It is not OUR work to believe. It is the work of God, to believe. / ("...that [we] believe"). (John 6:29)

Is a person regenerated b4 they believe ? I say yes

 

[makesends]

Is a person regenerated b4 they believe ? I say yes

That's kinda my point! They cannot believe until the Spirit himself produces that faith inside them. It is not a function of the person to produce that belief. They WILL believe, but it is done by the Spirit—not by the person. "We do so, because it IS so."

 

[brightfame52]

That's kinda my point! They cannot believe until the Spirit himself produces that faith inside them. It is not a function of the person to produce that belief. They WILL believe, but it is done by the Spirit—not by the person. "We do so, because it IS so."

okay, so then is a person Justified b4 God when they are regenerated ? or does God regenerate a unjustified person ?

 

[brightfame52]

Everyone Christ died for is by His death/blood alone Justified in the sight of God Rom 5:9,19 even though they are not yet Justified by Faith. You see one whom Christ died for does not need to be Justified by Faith in order to be Justified before God or in His sight, for to be Justified by faith is only to benefit the Justifed one in knowing of his or her Justification before God, for it is only a necessary consequence of having been Justified before God by the sole obedience of Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here made Righteous and Justification are the same !

 

[Eleanor]

Everyone Christ died for is by His death/blood alone Justified in the sight of God Rom 5:9,19 even though they are not yet Justified by Faith. You see one whom Christ died for does not need to be Justified by Faith in order to be Justified before God or in His sight, for to be Justified by faith is only to benefit the Justifed one in knowing of his or her Justification before God, for it is only a necessary consequence of having been Justified before God by the sole obedience of Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here made Righteous and Justification are the same !

No, they are not.

Justification is a declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sinlessness because of faith in Jesus' atoning work.
However, they are made righteous (Ro 5:19) through the imputation (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) of Christ' righteousness.
And both are through faith (Ro 3:28).

 

[brightfame52]

No, they are not.

Justification is a declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sinlessness because of faith in Jesus' atoning work.
However, they are made righteous (Ro 5:19) through the imputation (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) of Christ' righteousness.
And both are through faith (Ro 3:28).

5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here made Righteous and Justification are the same !

 

[Eleanor]

5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here made Righteous and Justification are the same !

Justification is a declaration of sinlessness through faith.
Righteousness is an imputation of Christ's righteousness through faith.

Sinlessness and righteousness are not the same.
Sinlessness is simply the absence of sin.
Righteousness is the possession of righteousness, through imputation.