If hell is eternal, then so is evil

[makesends]

The Second death is not though ceasing to exist, its being eternally ruined state due to being apart from presence of God

That's one way to put it.

 

[Bruiser]

Those who hold to the traditional doctrine of hell usually describe it as the final state of the wicked in eternal conscious torment; they are the reprobate, raised for judgment, justly condemned, and forever subjected to God’s punitive wrath. If there is no zone outside God’s sovereign control nor any kingdom that rivals his realm and rule, then some small corner of the renewed creation will be forever marred by sin where divine wrath is forever poured out. The wicked subsist forever; they remain in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, excluded from the blessedness of the redeemed, their enmity not healed but set forever. Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

That is one of my difficulties with the traditional view. It seems to require that, ultimately, evil is never actually abolished. Sin is not eradicated; it is quarantined. Hatred of God, misery, and rebellion remain forever as an everlasting pocket of anti-shalom within the new heavens and new earth.

But if that is so, in what sense are “all things” reconciled to him through Christ (Col. 1:20)? Redemptive history is, at the deepest level, the unfolding of God’s eternal purpose “to unite all things in him” (Eph 1:10), so that God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28). Judgment is the consummating act in that drama.

I understand the appeal to justice, but I struggle to see how the eschaton is truly consummated if a region of unending sinful resistance remains forever. That seems less like the complete triumph of redemption than the eternal preservation of a defeated-but-never-eradicated evil. But the language of Scripture seems clear in testifying that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere, describing an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself.

Question: How does the traditional view avoid the conclusion that evil is never finally abolished but eternally preserved under judgment, and in what sense, on that view, are all things united in Christ so that God is truly all in all?

Even if Hell were Finite, Sinners are Eternal. They aren't Atoned for, and they will Eternally generate Evil which needs Punishment...

 

[John Bauer]

Even if Hell were Finite, Sinners are Eternal. They aren't Atoned for, and they will Eternally generate Evil which needs Punishment...

That did not answer the question asked. Even that narrower scope incurs the same question.

 

[JesusFan]

That did not answer the question asked. Even that narrower scope incurs the same question.

The death and resurrection of jesus provided for physical resurrection even for the lost as they need those bodies for the eternal state

 

[John Bauer]

The death and resurrection of jesus provided for physical resurrection even for the lost as they need those bodies for the eternal state

That also doesn't answer the question.

It's at the bottom of the OP.

 

[Hobie]

Why did Jesus spend so much time warning about hell and damnation, speaking in terms that would indicate eternal consequences, not just get burnt away and ceasing to ever exist?

Well, sin has consequences even though the devil tells you the opposite...

 

[JesusFan]

Well, sin has consequences even though the devil tells you the opposite...

yes, it bring eternal consequences

 

[TMSO]

Those who hold to the traditional doctrine of hell usually describe it as the final state of the wicked in eternal conscious torment; they are the reprobate, raised for judgment, justly condemned, and forever subjected to God’s punitive wrath. If there is no zone outside God’s sovereign control nor any kingdom that rivals his realm and rule, then some small corner of the renewed creation will be forever marred by sin where divine wrath is forever poured out. The wicked subsist forever; they remain in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, excluded from the blessedness of the redeemed, their enmity not healed but set forever. Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

That is one of my difficulties with the traditional view. It seems to require that, ultimately, evil is never actually abolished. Sin is not eradicated; it is quarantined. Hatred of God, misery, and rebellion remain forever as an everlasting pocket of anti-shalom within the new heavens and new earth.

But if that is so, in what sense are “all things” reconciled to him through Christ (Col. 1:20)? Redemptive history is, at the deepest level, the unfolding of God’s eternal purpose “to unite all things in him” (Eph 1:10), so that God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28). Judgment is the consummating act in that drama.

I understand the appeal to justice, but I struggle to see how the eschaton is truly consummated if a region of unending sinful resistance remains forever. That seems less like the complete triumph of redemption than the eternal preservation of a defeated-but-never-eradicated evil. But the language of Scripture seems clear in testifying that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere, describing an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself.

Question: How does the traditional view avoid the conclusion that evil is never finally abolished but eternally preserved under judgment, and in what sense, on that view, are all things united in Christ so that God is truly all in all?

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [e]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [f]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [g]whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the [h]perseverance of the [i]saints who keep the commandments of God and [j]their faith in Jesus."

" 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Look up the word death where it says second death, and see that it is not the word for destruction or annihilation, but is the word for anti-life. That is, it is the opposite of life. Like when we die on Earth. So God brought them back to life at the second resurrection to face judgment, and then killed them again, submitting them to punishment. They go back to death. If you look at where this word is used elsewhere in scripture, it is for people dying on Earth.

Evil is not eternally preserved under judgement, but under punishment wrought by judgment. The punishment? Eternal torment in the lake of fire.

 

[Hobie]

I know of nowhere the resurrected bodies of the lost are glorified!! They are raised to perdition only.

Explain what you mean. I don't think you think their physical condition is the same as that of the saved, once resurrected.

Amen....

 

[Bruiser]

I know of nowhere the resurrected bodies of the lost are glorified!! They are raised to perdition only.

Explain what you mean. I don't think you think their physical condition is the same as that of the saved, once resurrected.

I think the only thing the Hellions have in common with Us; will be that like Us, they're existence is from Creation to Everlasting...

I base this from the Verse which says God is from Everlasting to Everlasting. At best, we can only be from Creation to Everlasting. Once we're born, our Souls are Eternal...

 

[Bruiser]

That did not answer the question asked. Even that narrower scope incurs the same question.

I read the question. I might need more clarification but my first reaction is to wonder why Everlasting Punishment of Everlasting Sinners is a Problem?

 

[atpollard]

I read the question. I might need more clarification but my first reaction is to wonder why Everlasting Punishment of Everlasting Sinners is a Problem?

John objects to "evil" existing forever in an eternity with "no more evil" to summarize badly.

 

[Bruiser]

John objects to "evil" existing forever in an eternity with "no more evil" to summarize badly.

I just think God would have to go out of his way to Annihilate Beings who are Eternal. If we disagree with Annihilation, then Sin has to take an unfathomable Eternity to Punish. It's not that Hell is Everlasting but we are Everlasting; keeping Hell alit. Hellions will always be smoking flax ..

God would have to thwart their Eternal Nature to rid himself of Sin. God can Cast Sin as far as the East is to the West; that's what Hell is for...

 

[John Bauer]

Once we're born, our souls are eternal.

Scripture. please.

 

[Bruiser]

Scripture. please.

Matthew 10:28 ESV; Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

John Gill Commentary - but are not able to kill the soul; which is immortal, and cannot be touched by the sword, by fire and faggot, or any instruments of violence: it is immortal, it survives the body, and lives in a separate state, enjoying happiness and bliss, whilst the body is in a state of death:Matthew 10:28 Commentaries: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus said this while still under the Old Covenant. His Statement applies to All, not just the Saints...

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 10:28 ESV; Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

John Gill Commentary - but are not able to kill the soul; which is immortal, and cannot be touched by the sword, by fire and faggot, or any instruments of violence: it is immortal, it survives the body, and lives in a separate state, enjoying happiness and bliss, whilst the body is in a state of death:Matthew 10:28 Commentaries: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus said this while still under the Old Covenant. His Statement applies to All, not just the Saints...

I thought of that ... but you are only half way to providing an answer.

• Matthew 10:28 ESV; Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You have demonstrated that ONLY God can destroy a soul ... but that means that God CAN destroy a soul.
You need to provide scripture that God WILL NOT/DOES NOT destroy souls to finish the "proof".

[John Gill's opinions, however useful, are not scripture or proof.]

 

[Bruiser]

I thought of that ... but you are only half way to providing an answer.

• Matthew 10:28 ESV; Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You have demonstrated that ONLY God can destroy a soul ... but that means that God CAN destroy a soul.
You need to provide scripture that God WILL NOT/DOES NOT destroy souls to finish the "proof".

Thanks for this affirmation...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV): "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".


I understand that the reason an Eternal Hell can exist, is because the duration was Decreed by God. I just also think God would need an Eternity to Punish an Everlasting Soul. It could go both ways...

The only way to utterly destroy a Soul is Annihilation; and God doesn't do that...

 

[Bruiser]

I thought of that ... but you are only half way to providing an answer.

• Matthew 10:28 ESV; Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You have demonstrated that ONLY God can destroy a soul ... but that means that God CAN destroy a soul.
You need to provide scripture that God WILL NOT/DOES NOT destroy souls to finish the "proof".

[John Gill's opinions, however useful, are not scripture or proof.]

Matthew 25:46 is the primary Bible verse regarding this topic, stating: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (ESV)

It contrasts the final destinies of the wicked and the righteous, indicating both are everlasting.

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 25:46 is the primary Bible verse regarding this topic, stating: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (ESV)

It contrasts the final destinies of the wicked and the righteous, indicating both are everlasting.

I find that one of the strongest verses for the case since it directly mates the same "eternal" with LIFE and PUNISHMENT so any effort to claim that the "eternal" is different in character feels eisigetically forced.

The hard part for ECT is the passages that talk about "destroyed".
The hard part for "ANNIHILATION" is Mat 25:46 and the things that ARE ETERNAL [worms, flame, smoke].

Personally, I prefer to focus my energy elsewhere. Hell is a place to avoid and recommend others should avoid as well [ECT or Annihilation].