I chose God..Or God chose me...

[Mr GLee]

God by His grace draws us to Himself, opens up our eyes to see the truth and we respond

Yes no grace no power to rise from the dead.

 

[Manfred]

Great-Scripture references to substantiate you claim?

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

 

[Manfred]

Man is able to make all free choices, otherwise, by definition, it would not be a free choice,

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

All your free choices are yours. Glory to self!
Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.
Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Your will be done or 'Father, your will be done"?

 

[Josheb]

Even if Premise 1 were true, those two premises do not pose a contradiction.

That is incorrect.

If God is immutable (unchanging) the humans cannot cause changes in God. God being unchangeable and humans changing God are logically self-contradictory positions.

If freddy got your (supposed?) view incorrect (we are the cause of God's reactions), then clarify it so your view is correctly understood, and that mistake can be amended and not repeated. Do you believe we cause God to act? If so, do you believe unregenerate sinners can cause God to act in a manner different than He might otherwise have done had the sinner acted differently?

 

[Eleanor]

That is incorrect.

If God is immutable (unchanging) the humans cannot cause changes in God. God being unchangeable and humans changing God are logically self-contradictory positions.

If freddy got your (supposed?) view incorrect (we are the cause of God's reactions), then clarify it so your view is correctly understood, and that mistake can be amended and not repeated. Do you believe we cause God to act? If so, do you believe unregenerate sinners can cause God to act in a manner different than He might otherwise have done had the sinner acted differently?

That would be the cart pulling the horse.

 

[Josheb]

That would be the cart pulling the horse.

Gotta clarify that. What would be the cart pulling the horse? If that means man pulling God, then tell @JIM. Otherwise, clarify it.

 

[Eleanor]

Gotta clarify that. What would be the cart pulling the horse? If that means man pulling God, then tell @JIM. Otherwise, clarify it.

I was commenting to you on Jim's post.

 

[Carbon]

Nope

Do you understand the reformed position?

 

[Carbon]

I was commenting to you on Jim's post.

There are a lot of carts pulling horses out there.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

There is so much controversy over these two testimonies from believers

I never chose God, he chose me...I never chose to be birthed in the Spirit.

Thoughts please?

Does the living word of God teach that we can choose to be birthed in the Spirit?

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

We have to dig deeply into the Doctrines being presented, you mention

I never chose to be birthed in the Spirit

That is the Reformed position, a position that states God preselected who would be saved and who would not. It essentially means God has "no willingness to save some".

But let's return to the scripture in Mathew 23:37, it is Jesus speaking, God, what did He say, "How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

It shows clearly:

• God has a willingness to save the sinner
• But it is the man who chooses, through his lack of willingness to not receive salvation.

As I have mentioned in the past, the Early Church within 150 years of Jesus, never doubted for a minute that God had a willingness to save all men. Augustine on whom Reformed Theology is based came 100's of years after, and had no direct connection to the Early Church. He would have been considered a heretic by the early writers. I quote two of my favorite early passages here, but there are many many more:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

Justin Martyr (110 - 165) - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

[JIM]

Premise 1 is yours, not mine. [edit by mod] Even if Premise 1 were true, those two premises do not pose a contradiction. [edit by mod]

It is unfortunate that most people do not really know and understand what a contradiction is. For example,; the following two premises do not, without further detail, constitute a contradiction in formal logic.
Premise 1: The sky was blue.
Premise 2: The sky was red.

 

[JIM]

Do you understand the reformed position?

I understand that it is wrong. lol

 

[fastfredy0]

It is unfortunate that most people do not really know and understand what a contradiction is. For example,; the following two premises do not, without further detail, constitute a contradiction in formal logic.
Premise 1: The sky was blue.
Premise 2: The sky was red.

?????? ... irrelevant ... why don't you answer @Josheb post #344 which is relevant.

My syllogism (what we were discussing as opposed to the irrelevant color of the sky premises)

The following is the original syllogism that you refuse to confront directly (thus wasting my time)

Your logic goes as follows IMO:
Premise 1: We are the cause of God's reactions.
Premise 2: God does not change.
Conclusion: This is a contradiction. One of your premises is WRONG. Granted, you have not stated that is God is immutable. If you want to state God is mutable, we can go down that road. Otherwise, you have an unsolvable contradiction.

IMO, you believe man can use his will to determine what an immutable God will do. God is man's puppet in certain scenarios. For instance:
Step 1: Joe, the puppeteer, independent of God, decides to believe salvificly
Step 2: The causes the virtual strings the puppeteer (Joe) has to cause the immutable God to accept Joe as His son due to Joe's independent act of righteousness.
Step 3: Joe now has reason to boast as unlike the majority of people Joe's will has lead Joe through the narrow gate that few find. Joe's will, which is independent of God in matters of salvation, has caused God (the puppet in these matters) to save Joe.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is so much controversy over these two testimonies from believers

I never chose God, he chose me...I never chose to be birthed in the Spirit.

Thoughts please?

Does the living word of God teach that we can choose to be birthed in the Spirit?

Since no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him per John 6:44 & it is the Father that hides the truth from the wise & prudent and reveal them unto babes, Matthew 11:25-27, can it be that the Father chose to save us so we can believe in Jesus Christ thus be saved?

Since our believing in Jesus is the work of the Father per John 3:18-21 by the Father's foreknowledge of whether or not sinners prefer their evil deeds instead of coming to the Light to be reproved of them, that He literally gives us to the Son to save us per John 6:37-40, then our choosing Him to follow Him has to be also an added work of the Lord Jesus Christ as He testified that He chose us in John 15:16 and not the other way around for following Him as His disciples.

So the statement "I never chose God, he chose me...I never chose to be birthed in the Spirit," is not quite true when after the Father has chosen us, is why and how we can believe in His Son and since not every saved believer will follow Jesus is why Jesus chose those that do put their trust in Him as their Good Shepherd so they can choose to follow Him.

Decide this day Whom you will serve, the Lord Jesus Christ in seeking His glory or something else in His name in seeking the glory of that which is NOT serving the Lord Jesus Christ in seeking His glory at all.

How saved believers respond to this calling shows to those believers whether or not He has chosen them to follow Him by faith in Him alone.

Many are called but few are chosen for why only a few in the land of the living in these latter days will be found abiding in Him & willing to go at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

That does not mean they will never sin again, but it does mean they will not give up their faith in Him so that they will ask for forgiveness and His help not to do it again by getting rid of the weights ( the provisions for the flesh ) as well as laying down of the sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son per 1 John 1:3-9 as they trust Him at His word below.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

As bad as the latter days are now with works of iniquities abounding in the churches, and their refusal to repent to maintain the status quo, is why you will see His sheep that follows His voice being scattered by the wolves to not go to church any more.

No one that put their trust in Him that believe in Him will be put to shame as I know I need His help daily to keep trusting in Him in spite of the storms in my life.

 

[Carbon]

I understand that it is wrong. lol

And I understand, you understand it as wrong.

 

[JIM]

?????? ... irrelevant ... why don't you answer @Josheb post #344 which is relevant.

My syllogism (what we were discussing as opposed to the irrelevant color of the sky premises)

The following is the original syllogism that you refuse to confront directly (thus wasting my time)

IMO, you believe man can use his will to determine what an immutable God will do. God is man's puppet in certain scenarios. For instance:
Step 1: Joe, the puppeteer, independent of God, decides to believe salvificly
Step 2: The causes the virtual strings the puppeteer (Joe) has to cause the immutable God to accept Joe as His son due to Joe's independent act of righteousness.
Step 3: Joe now has reason to boast as unlike the majority of people Joe's will has lead Joe through the narrow gate that few find. Joe's will, which is independent of God in matters of salvation, has caused God (the puppet in these matters) to save Joe.

God is the cause of His reactions.

 

[JIM]

And I understand, you understand it as wrong.

How many times can we, should we, play that game?

 

[Carbon]

How many times can we, should we, play that game?

Yes, right. Because we haven't gotten anywhere, have we.

 

[JIM]

Yes, right. Because we haven't gotten anywhere, have we.

Do you really expect to "get anywhere" with the non-Calvinist?

 

[Josheb]

Do you really expect to "get anywhere" with the non-Calvinist?

Most of us who are now Calvinist were previously Arminian. We were raised, converted, or taught under Arminian leadership and believed what we were taught. As we aged and matured, we gradually the lessons of others and began studying scripture and theology for ourselves, incuding the doctrines of salvation. We learned not to proof-text scripture, and we noticed how many of our preachers and teachers do it on a daily basis. In studying scripture, not only was sound exegesis learned, but we also learned it's not hard to learn. It opens up the word of God to illuminate His revelation in ways not possible with casual reading. We not only learned that Arminianism was not the only doctrine of salvation held in the Church, it was not the oldest, the, most historical, or the only view considered orthodox. We learned the debate between Calvin and Arminius preceded them and it had taken various forms for centuries and it was not specifically a Protestant concern. We learned the Arminian position can be obtained only reading scripture inferentially and only by starting with certain humanistic assumption. Much to our reluctance, perhaps even chagrin, we learned there are a plethora of texts in scripture that bluntly assign salvific causality to God and God alone prior to conversion. I am not sure anyone wants to be Calvinist in the beginning. It confronts our sensibilities and forces us to ask, "Do I trust my own perceptions, or do I trust the plain reading of God's word?"

I came to understand, accept, and believe God's word and found the monergistic view was much more consistent with whole scripture because of the goodwill intentions of other Calvinists. So, yes, it is quite possible for a Calvinist to expect s/he will get somewhere with non-Cals. Most of wore your shoes and walked your path before accepting Calvinism.