Grace is help not to sin.

[Ghada]

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The grace of God is help in time of temptation not to sin.

The grace of man is help in time of sinning not to be condemned for it.

 

[Josheb]

Grace is not help to sin.

rotflmbo!

Is that not obvious?

 

[Ghada]

rotflmbo!

Is that not obvious?

Is what not obvious? rotflmbo? No.

When you quote me without stopping short to make the point look ridiculous, then we can try again.

 

[donadams]

Throne of grace is Mary’s throne!

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30 and cos she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38

Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!

Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!

It is really God who greeting Mary with the “Hail Mary”!
Lk 1:26 & Lk 1:45

Blessed art thou among all women! Lk 1:28 & Lk 1:45 & Lk 1:48

All generations shall call me blessed! Lk 1:48

A new song of thanksgiving for bringing our salvation!

And thanksgiving for the incarnation of Jesus Christ! The word was made flesh and dwelt among us thanks to Mary’s yes consenting to our salvation!

The Domain of grace and salvation belongs to Mary! The mother of mercy!

Jn 1:16-17 all graces are from Christ!

All graces come thru Mary!

Thanks

 

[Ghada]

rotflmbo!

Is that not obvious?

Not to those who say grace is help to sin, but no more be condemned for it.

 

[Ghada]

Throne of grace is Mary’s throne!

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30 and cos she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38

Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!

Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!

It is really God who greeting Mary with the “Hail Mary”!
Lk 1:26 & Lk 1:45

Blessed art thou among all women! Lk 1:28 & Lk 1:45 & Lk 1:48

All generations shall call me blessed! Lk 1:48

A new song of thanksgiving for bringing our salvation!

And thanksgiving for the incarnation of Jesus Christ! The word was made flesh and dwelt among us thanks to Mary’s yes consenting to our salvation!

The Domain of grace and salvation belongs to Mary! The mother of mercy!

Jn 1:16-17 all graces are from Christ!

All graces come thru Mary!

Thanks

Thanks from our most holy Catholic daughters of Mary.

 

[Josheb]

Not to those who say grace is help to sin, but no more be condemned for it.

First, let me correct my op-reply because I misquoted the op (or the op has since been edited). The op states, "Grace is help..... not to sin." I misquoted that to read, "Grace is not help to sin." My regrets. Please forgive my error because I definitely do not want to misrepresent the op.


That being said....

Who here says, "Grace is help to sin"?

Who here says, "No more condemned for [grace]"?

If no one in this thread or this forum says either, then from whence did the notion occur? Was this read somewhere? Was it heard on the radio or watched online? If so, then what is the source so I and everyone else reading Post #5 will better understand?




Point of clarification: Do you mean to say there are some who believe grace means there is no more condemnation of the sinner, or no more condemnation of sin?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The grace of God is help in time of temptation not to sin.

The grace of man is help in time of sinning not to be condemned for it.

GRACE (unmerited favor) is why you weren't immediately destroyed when you SINNED and fell short of God's Glory. GRACE is why you were permitted to survive, until such time as you could REPENT and be BORN AGAIN By FAITH.

 

[Ghada]

First, let me correct my op-reply because I misquoted the op (or the op has since been edited). The op states, "Grace is help..... not to sin." I misquoted that to read, "Grace is not help to sin."

No problem. Same thing.

My regrets. Please forgive my error because I definitely do not want to misrepresent the op.


That being said....

Who here says, "Grace is help to sin"?

Who here says, "No more condemned for [grace]"?

If you're unfamiliar with unconditionally secured salvation for unrepented sinners, then be glad.

They preach grace only covers their sinning, so that they are no more condemned while sinning.

They do not preach the Bible grace, that only helps us not to sin int time of temptation, so that we not be condemne3d by sinning.

Point of clarification: Do you mean to say there are some who believe grace means there is no more condemnation of the sinner, or no more condemnation of sin?

Yes.

They call it unconditional eternal salvation by faith alone, apart from works.

I.e. inward salvation only, separated from how they live.

As I said, if you've never heard such hypocritical delusion, then be glad.

 

[Ghada]

GRACE (unmerited favor) is why you weren't immediately destroyed when you SINNED and fell short of God's Glory. GRACE is why you were permitted to survive, until such time as you could REPENT and be BORN AGAIN By FAITH.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Longsuffering mercy of God upon sinners, is space to repent.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Grace of God is help and power not to sin, once we repent of sinning for Jesus' sake.

Unrepented sinners have no grace of God, because they despise the Spirit of grace convicting the heart unto repentance.

I let God teach and define His own doctrine by the Bible. If you show anywhere in the Bible that unrepented sinners have the grace of God, then I'll agree your doctrine and definition is not just your own.

Until then, it is just your own. Many things may sound pretty and sweet, but they are lies that only lead to more ungodliness, not to godly living.

 

[Mr GLee]

Grace the milk of the word it teaches us to say no to sin.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,As newborn babes, desire the sincere "milk" of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The milk of the word builds strong bones of faith enabling us to eat the meat that the disciples knew not of both to hear the will and empower us to finish it to His god pleasure

LOL Three glasses a day keep the evil one away

John 4:34-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[Josheb]

Point of clarification: Do you mean to say there are some who believe grace means there is no more condemnation of the sinner, or no more condemnation of sin?

Yes.

They call it unconditional eternal salvation by faith alone, apart from works.

Who believes such a thing? Who, specifically, believes eternal salvation is entirely unconditional?

Have you conflated the monergistic doctrine known as "Unconditional Election" (UE) with "unconditional eternal salvation"? If so, then the error is on your part, not those subscribing to UE. UE does not state a person is unconditionally eternally saved and Calvinists do not typically hold salvation is wholly unconditional. If that is what you think Calvinism teaches, then two mistakes have been made and every criticism built on ether mistake is a straw man. Furthermore, how is that related to grace being the power not to save (which is the specified topic of discussion in this op)?

So.....

1. Who, specifically, do you know that teaches "unconditional eternal salvation"? Name them and link me to a source where I can find that person or that group of people asserting that belief.
2. Have you unintentionally conflated or otherwise confused the doctrine of Unconditional Election with the premise of unconditional eternal salvation?
3. If the two were unintentionally conflated or confused, will you now acknowledge that mistake and enter into a respectful conversation with me better clarifying the how God's grace is help in time of temptation?

.

As I said, if you've never heard such hypocritical delusion, then be glad.

Let's be clear: if no one actually teaches such a thing and you cannot provide evidence of anyone actually doing so then all the posts about people believing man's grace means "help in time of sinning not to be condemned for it," and eternal salvation is unconditional then the entire op is a red herring and the delusional one is you. Prove this op has justification and merit. If there are actually people who actually teach what you have posted, then prove their existence and I will gladly join you in repudiating that teaching.

Who teaches eternal salvation is unconditional?

What has that to do with God's grace being help not to sin?

 

[Josheb]

Since I erred in reading the post correctly the first time out, let me start over.

The grace of God is help in time of temptation not to sin.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree. I, personally and based on scripture's use of the word "charis," would say God's grace is much, much more than just aid not to sin in time of temptation, but it is definitely true that God, by grace, aids us in not sinning when tempted.

The grace of man is help in time of sinning not to be condemned for it.

I'm not sure I have ever read any Christian teacher teach anything about "the grace of man" relevant to temptation or sin. If that is a term you found used by someone else I would like to know that source. If that is a phrase you coined then it would be helpful if you defined or clarified it so participant in the ensuing discussion know what you mean.

I will add this relevant to the prospect of not being condemned. According to Romans 8:1 there is NOW no condemnation for those in Christ. That declaration was made immediately after Paul described his own struggle with his flesh, the Law, temptation, and sin. He wrote that to the saints - those already purchased and believing in the blood of Christ - to address that same post-conversion experience. Paul had already rhetorically asked, "Shall we not then sin more so that grace might all the more abound?" and then argued an unequivocal "No!" (Romans 6).

Even Christians sin. If they did not then there would be no need for further confession, repentance, forgiveness, or reconciliation among the saints. When Christians sin there is no condemnation. There are consequences to sin (both temporal and eternal, natural and divine) but condemnation is not one of those consequences. I am not sure how one man can help another man not be condemned when he sinned, but I do know it is well within God's ability to do so.

 

[David1701]

No problem. Same thing.


If you're unfamiliar with unconditionally secured salvation for unrepented sinners, then be glad.

They preach grace only covers their sinning, so that they are no more condemned while sinning.

They do not preach the Bible grace, that only helps us not to sin int time of temptation, so that we not be condemne3d by sinning.


Yes.

They call it unconditional eternal salvation by faith alone, apart from works.

I.e. inward salvation only, separated from how they live.

As I said, if you've never heard such hypocritical delusion, then be glad.

You're referring to "easy believism", which, although I have come across it, is quite rare.

Genuine faith in Jesus Christ results in good works.

 

[Ghada]

Grace the milk of the word it teaches us to say no to sin.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,As newborn babes, desire the sincere "milk" of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The milk of the word builds strong bones of faith enabling us to eat the meat that the disciples knew not of both to hear the will and empower us to finish it to His god pleasure

LOL Three glasses a day keep the evil one away

John 4:34-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[Ghada]

Who believes such a thing? Who, specifically, believes eternal salvation is entirely unconditional?

Have you conflated the monergistic doctrine known as "Unconditional Election" (UE)

Never heard of it. But initially it doesn't sound good. Nothing is unconditional about being elected and saved unto the end.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

If you'd teach it to me, I'd be glad to hear it.

Furthermore, how is that related to grace being the power not to save (which is the specified topic of discussion in this op)?

You've gotten your words wrong.

Grace is the power not to sin. Salvation is the power of not sinning.

So.....

1. Who, specifically, do you know that teaches "unconditional eternal salvation"? Name them and link me to a source where I can find that person or that group of people asserting that belief.

If you want to look it up yourself, just look for key words in titles: Unconditional, not conditional, eternal security. Only by faith. Apart from works, etc...

You've really never heard of OSAS? You're lucky. Keeps the mind pure from corrupt debris.

1. Have you unintentionally conflated or otherwise confused the doctrine of Unconditional Election with the premise of unconditional eternal salvation?

Not if one is different from the other.

1. If the two were unintentionally conflated or confused, will you now acknowledge that mistake and enter into a respectful conversation with me better clarifying the how God's grace is help in time of temptation?

No. If I've been disrespectful, then show me reasonably how, and I can do better.

Otherwise, I'm talking only about unconditional eternal salvation, which you haven't ever heard of. You're talking about an 'unconditional election', which I've never heard of.

If they are conflated by being the same, then I reject them both equally.

.

Let's be clear: if no one actually teaches such a thing and you cannot provide evidence of anyone actually doing so then all the posts about people believing man's grace means "help in time of sinning not to be condemned for it," and eternal salvation is unconditional then the entire op is a red herring and the delusional one is you.

True. But since I could never think this stuff up by myself, then I got it from elsewhere.

What has that to do with God's grace being help not to sin?

I already have to you. I'll repeat it once more, in case you missed it.

They preach grace only covers their sinning, so that they are no more condemned while sinning.

It's basically making the blood of the Lamb of God, no better than that of a bull or gate.

Their continued sinning is not washed away, nor taken away, but just covered from judgment and condemnation of God.

 

[Josheb]

Who believes such a thing? Who, specifically, believes eternal salvation is entirely unconditional?

Have you conflated the monergistic doctrine known as "Unconditional Election" (UE) with "unconditional eternal salvation"?

Never heard of it.

Then you acknowledge the entire op is a red herring.

There is no such thing as unconditional eternal salvation. You have no evidence, much less proof, any such thing exists anywhere in Christendom, and after 16 posts have refused to either prove such a thing exists or acknowledge the lack. One last chance.....



Who teaches unconditional eternal salvation?



Prove such a thing exists.
.

 

[Josheb]

You've gotten your words wrong. Grace is the power not to sin. Salvation is the power of not sinning.

You're right! I misquoted the op, and did so for the second time. I'll be more careful.



But you dodged the question. How is any of this relevant to grace being the power not to sin? I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you that grace is the power NOT to sin.

So what?

How is that relevant to this supposed "unconditional eternal salvation" no one believes in, and you have not shown exists?

 

[Josheb]

If you'd teach it to me, I'd be glad to hear it.

I did. I provided a link explaining UE and you're now pretending that did not happen and further pretending you don't know what was stated in that link.

You've really never heard of OSAS?

OSAS does not teach "unconditional eternal salvation." If you think that is what OSAS teaches then you are wrong, in need of more study and better learning, have been arguing straw men, and all the criticisms built on the misunderstanding are abusive to those who know the doctrine(s) correctly.

No. If I've been disrespectful, then show me reasonably how, and I can do better.

Baseless criticism, red herrings, straw men, and feigned ignorance are ALL disrespectful.

Otherwise, I'm talking only about unconditional eternal salvation, which you haven't ever heard of.

I haven't heard of it and you have yet to prove it exists. So far what the posts show is that you have wrongly mixed-up UE and OSAS with "unconditional eternal salvation AND refused to heed the information provided showing they are not identical.

• NO ONE teach unconditional eternal salvation.
• You have yet to prove anyone does so.
• Arguing things that do not exist as if they do exist is a red herring
• Unconditional Election is not identical to unconditional eternal salvation.
• The doctrine colloquially called "Once Saved Always Saved" is also not identical to unconditional eternal salvation.
• Arguing UE and/or OSAS as identical or synonymous with unconditional eternal salvation is a straw man.
• People who criticize others based on red herrings and straw men and repeatedly refuse to evidence their claims are self-evidently prima facie disrespectful, and when they do so knowingly that qualifies as deceit.

Stop being lazy and prove someone actually believes in a thing called "unconditional eternal salvation."

Or

In the absence of an inability to prove that claim please have the respect, courtesy, and honesty to be forthcoming and honest and state, "I do not have any proof anyone actually teaches a thing called 'unconditional eternal salvation'."

Respect yourself by being honest. Respect everyone else by being forthcoming. Once you have either provided proof someone actually teaches eternal salvation is completely unconditional, I'll take up that matter and that source. Alternatively, once you've acknowledged there is no such proof, I will ask you a few questions and provide you with some basics pertaining to grace as the scriptures assert it because I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you that grace is power not to sin, help in times of temptation NOT to sin. That half of the op is correct. The rest is red herrings and straw men and you do not appear to understand that.

I can help you understand better so these mistakes do not recur and, if you'll let me, I'd like to try.


1 John 3:6
No one who remains in him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen him or knows him.

It's time to stop the red herrings, straw men, conflation, and baseless claims. Do NOT repeat the above mistakes again. Obey God. Either prove someone actually teaches unconditional eternal salvation or confess the lack. Turn this op into something useful so the lurkers might benefit.

 

[Ghada]

I completely and wholeheartedly agree. I, personally and based on scripture's use of the word "charis," would say God's grace is much, much more than just aid not to sin in time of temptation, but it is definitely true that God, by grace, aids us in not sinning when tempted.

Amen. His grace is help to continue faithful to Him also through earthly distress, tribulation, and persecution.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

It's not made known exactly what Paul's thorn in the flesh was, but it was most likely to endure unto the end without forsaking the Lord's gospel ministry.

For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I'm not sure I have ever read any Christian teacher teach anything about "the grace of man" relevant to temptation or sin.

There are religions of man, and so grace of man. It's basically any phony thing man comes up with that opposes what God reveals as true.

For instance, there's the true holiness of God, and then there's the made-up holiness of man.

If that is a term you found used by someone else I would like to know that source. If that is a phrase you coined then it would be helpful if you defined or clarified it so participant in the ensuing discussion know what you mean.

I use it to offset man's made up grace instead of God's grace.

Unrepented sinners that justify themselves, use their own grace for a covering of sin, rather than God's delivery from sinning.

I will add this relevant to the prospect of not being condemned. According to Romans 8:1 there is NOW no condemnation for those in Christ. That declaration was made immediately after Paul described his own struggle with his flesh, the Law, temptation, and sin. He wrote that to the saints -

Romans 7 is not a verification of lifetime Christian living. It's a possible state of double-heartedness, that needs deliverance from it, in order to have a single heart toward God.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7 is the hearer of the word only, that now knows we ought walk not after the flesh, but still are. They now know the truth of the word, but aren't doing the truth.

Romans 8 is only for them delivered from such double heartedness, and move on to walking only after the Spirit, and not at all after the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who are not walking after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The error is in believing anyone is 'in Christ Jesus' by believing it alone. Only those now walking after the Spirit are in Christ Jesus. No one now walking after the flesh is in Christ Jesus.

The unrepented sinful Christians that say they are 'in Christ Jesus' by their faith alone, also want to therefore say they are not condemned while walking after the flesh at the same time.

He that saith, I know him, and is not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.