God's Law and the Christian

[gdl]

The issue in Ro 5:12-14 is accountable guilt/death by transgression of the law, the cause of all personal guilt/death.

Transgression of law (= death) requires there be 1) law with 2) death penalty, as in the Garden (Ge 2:17),
and which there was not between Adam and Moses, yet all died.

This is interesting.

When you say "death by transgression of the law" are you deriving this just from the referenced verses?

Am I understanding you correctly re: Adam in the Garden?

• In the Garden God commanded Adam not to eat and issued a death penalty, so we have [spoken] law (command + penalty)?

 

[Arial]

There was no given law of God which made Joseph guilty of transgression, which is Paul's point regarding the time between Adam and Moses.

No point in belaboring the issue, but I am not claiming that Joseph had a written Law.

No one was guilty of transgression between Adam and Moses, because there was no law with death penalty to transgress, yet all died. . . because of Adam's transgression imputed to them (Ro 5:18),
which imputation of Adam's transgression was the pattern for Christ's (Ro 5:14) righteousness being imputed to us (Ro 4:1-11, 22-23).

Romans 3:21-23
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it---the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is not distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

 

[gdl]

And sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

Actually, this is not a good translation of that verse. Many other English translations correctly translate this per the Greek which says, "sin is lawlessness." If we use "transgression" we're going to lose detail which can end up misleading us.

When we start chasing lessons re: sin and law around the Text, for one thing, it can be crucial to know what is being translated.

The Hebrew Text for instance has 3 different words (that I recall) that we may see translated as sin and they all have a bit different nuance.

The Greek has different words for sin and things related to sin (e.g. trespass, transgression, et.al.) that we might see in English translated inconsistently.

 

[gdl]

What is His moral law and how long has it existed? At least as long as sin has existed

So the moral law is "be like God."

This is an interesting and not unknown theory, but it has long been the topic of extensive debate.

We know that the terminology "moral law" is not in Scripture. Your "be like Me" paraphrase of "moral law" is interesting and can be explored Scripturally.

There is also much discussion on the various ways the word "law" can be considered.

Having chased this topic around Scripture and through many, many books and articles and spoken lessons, on and off for near 3 decades, and being familiar with many of the language and translations issues that pertain to it, one of the things I've begun to explore in more depth is whether we should be researching "law" or "faith".

 

[gdl]

The moral law was given to Adam orally in the Garden of Eden. They were created in His image and likeness so they knew His character. They passed this knowledge to their offspring.

This is theory and heavily debated theory.

 

[gdl]

God wrote this law in the hearts of all humans. (Romans 2:15) This is our conscience.

So, all that mankind has been dealing with from the beginning is acting against the moral law ("be like Me" law) in their conscience increasing to having seared consciences?

That this is true and always has been, therefore the moral law of God has always existed and still does and always will, is seen in Abraham long before the written Law or even the Ten Commandments were given (1 Sam 13:13; 1 Kings 13:21) We see it also in Joseph in the episode with Potiphar's wife when she tempted him to commit adultery in Genesis 39 when he says in verse 9 "No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"

So, Cain killing Abel was simply his acting against his conscience?

The same goes for the entire generations in the era of the flood?

How does the fact that God spoke to men in those early days certainly and clearly up and through Moses. Did He teach and explain anything to them, or was it just their downloaded moral law in their conscience that was involved?

 

[gdl]

By the time of Moses and Sinai the people had been corrupted during their slavery in Egypt and were under the influence of that pagan religion. So God wrote the Ten Commandments and ultimately the Mosaic Covenant Law. (Gal 3:15-22)

Was it just pagan religion or also the fact that men had been writing laws for many centuries before Moses? Or do these two things go hand in hand with one another?

It is historically fascinating to see that men were writing laws well before the word "laws" is mentioned in Genesis.

Then, in the light of the NC, there is certainly more to consider re: early "law" but as I said in a previous post, it takes some careful textual analysis to learn things and the tendency to argue from silence is a good practice.

 

[gdl]

The Ten Commandments contain all of God's moral law.

How so?

 

[gdl]

The Ten Commandments contain all of God's moral law.

In conclusion the Christian is bound to the moral law of God as are all people.

So, connecting the dots, all people, Christian or not, are bound to the 10C.

Since you've also mentioned conscience in regard to moral law and since you connect moral law to the 10C, is there any indication that the conscience of pagan and/or pre-Moses mankind was ever, even today, for example, driven by conscience to observe the 7th day Sabbath?

Since the 10C was part of the Law of Moses, and the entire Law of Moses was a single unit (if you break one, then you break them all), how do you transition the 10C being for not only the Christian, but also for the pagan in light of the entire Mosaic Covenant having vanished, and the Mosaic Law being the terms of that old Covenant?

Along with this, how do you make the 10C distinct and separate from all of the elaboration of the 10C contained in the balance of the 613 commandments contained in the Mosaic Law per rabbinical count?

Isn't much of this a theory that this moral law has existed from the beginning and is carried through to this day and beyond? I know the examples of morality that are to be found in Genesis and they are indeed interesting. I know Gen26:5 speaks of laws, etc. that predate Moses. It's obvious that something was in play, and I do think the responsibility of the creature to the Creator and His image is an important consideration. But "moral law" seems a construct of men in their attempt to understand their history and their God. And your work is that of me who have been working on and debating this for millennia.

 

[Rufus]

I will distinguish between the Mosaic covenant Law and the implicit law of God by capitalizing law when I mean the Mosaic covenant law.

But does the bible make such a distinction? If so, where?

The moral law was given to Adam orally in the Garden of Eden. They were created in His image and likeness so they knew His character. They passed this knowledge to their offspring.

Of what did this "moral law" consist: The commands in Gen 1:28; 2:16-17? Were these imperatives the "moral law"?

 

[Eleanor]

 

[Eleanor]

So, connecting the dots, all people, Christian or not, are bound to the 10C.
Since you've also mentioned conscience in regard to moral law and since you connect moral law to the 10C, is there any indication that the conscience of pagan and/or pre-Moses mankind was ever, even today, for example, driven by conscience to observe the 7th day Sabbath?
Since the 10C was part of the Law of Moses, and the entire Law of Moses was a single unit (if you break one, then you break them all), how do you transition the 10C being for not only the Christian, but also for the pagan in light of the entire Mosaic Covenant having vanished, and the Mosaic Law being the terms of that old Covenant?
Along with this, how do you make the 10C distinct and separate from all of the elaboration of the 10C contained in the balance of the 613 commandments contained in the Mosaic Law per rabbinical count?

Isn't much of this a theory that this moral law has existed from the beginning and is carried through to this day and beyond? I know the examples of morality that are to be found in Genesis and they are indeed interesting. I know Gen26:5 speaks of laws, etc. that predate Moses. It's obvious that something was in play, and I do think the responsibility of the creature to the Creator and His image is an important consideration. But "moral law" seems a construct of men in their attempt to understand their history and their God. And your work is that of me who have been working on and debating this for millennia.

Is it not a simple way of categorizing all the laws into three groups: moral, civil and religious (ceremonial)?

And let's not forget, "He who loves has fulfilled the law." (Ro 13:8)

 

[Eleanor]

Ok. I'm puzzled, but I'll leave it alone for awhile.

Oh, oh. . .refers to post #6.

 

[Eleanor]

This is interesting.

When you say "death by transgression of the law" are you deriving this just from the referenced verses?

Transgression is always a breach of law (Ro 5:14, 1 Tim 2:14).
No law = no breach of law = no transgression (Ro 4:15, 5:13).
The law was given to codify sin as transgression (Gal 3:19).
Violation of Ge 2:17 and the Mosaic code are transgression.

Am I understanding you correctly re: Adam in the Garden?

• In the Garden God commanded Adam not to eat and issued a death penalty, so we have [spoken] law (command + penalty)?

You are understanding me correctly regarding Ge 2:17.

 

[gdl]

Is it not a simple way of categorizing all the laws into three groups: moral, civil and religious (ceremonial)?

And let's not forget, "He who loves has fulfilled the law." (Ro 13:8)

Simple yes, but some including me say not Biblical since the Law was a unit, and was not to be added to or subtracted from as I recall from Deut.

Historically as far as I can tell, some of the division concepts began with Martyr, Iraneaus, Augustine and others and the tripartite concept came with Aquinas.

Thanks. I do not forget verses like Rom13:8 and a few other such ones and am currently doing a lot more thinking and studying of this and the above concepts and how they may be colliding.

IMO something is very wrong with the way we view Law, and it has caused and is causing more havoc in Christendom than I think most realize. Some of this is under discussion here.

 

[Eleanor]

No point in belaboring the issue, but I am not claiming that Joseph had a written Law.

Romans 3:21-23
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it---the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is not distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Keeping in mind, this is Paul referring to post Sinai, in terms of Jew (Israel), Gentile and the law, all distinctions established at Sinai, as he demonstrates the guilt of all Jews as well as of all Gentiles based on that law, in establishing the unrighteousness of all mankind at that time.

 

[makesends]

Transgression is always a breach of law (Ro 5:14, 1 Tim 2:14).
No law = no breach of law = no transgression (Ro 4:15, 5:13).
The law was given to codify sin as transgression (Gal 3:19).
Violation of Ge 2:17 and the Mosaic code are transgression.

You are understanding me correctly regarding Ge 2:17.

So you are not saying that they did not sin, between Adam and Moses, but that they did not transgress the law, right?

Are you saying then, that Adam's death sentence imputed to them is why they died, and they bear no penalty for their own SIN —"...to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."— or are you only saying that Romans 5:12-14 is not referencing that penalty, but only that of imputation?

Are you of the opinion that, in fact, the ungodliness and rebellion of those between Adam and Moses is not accounted to them, and they bear no penalty for it in the afterlife? Or are you only saying that Romans 5:12-14 is not referencing it?

 

[Eleanor]

Simple yes, but some including me say not Biblical since the Law was a unit, and was not to be added to or subtracted from as I recall from Deut.

Grouping them is not adding or subtracting.

Historically as far as I can tell, some of the division concepts began with Martyr, Iraneaus, Augustine and others and the tripartite concept came with Aquinas.
Thanks. I do not forget verses like Rom13:8 and a few other such ones and am currently doing a lot more thinking and studying of this and the above concepts and how they may be colliding.
IMO something is very wrong with the way we view Law, and it has caused and is causing more havoc in Christendom than I think most realize. Some of this is under discussion here.

Could it be that we forget "he who loves has fulfilled the law"? (Ro 13:8)

 

[Arial]

But does the bible make such a distinction? If so, where?

Paul frequently does. Sometimes he is speaking of the Mosaic Law and sometimes he is speaking of the law of bearing the image of our Maker. "Be like me." That is what being His image bearer means. It is a command implied and demanded. And all commands are law. If He loves, we are to love, if He is just, we are to be just, if He is faithful, we are to be faithful. That last one has many applications in our life but let's just compare it to human marriage.

In the Mosaic covenant law adultery is forbidden. But that was actually a command in Eden when God made one man and gave him a helpmate---one woman. Creation has a created order. And don't forget that we are to bear the same relationship image that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have, in our personal relationships.

Adultery is also expressed in the OT covenant Law as "going after other gods." Adultery was committed against God. Unfaithful.

Of what did this "moral law" consist:

The very character of God and also to worship and obey Him.

 

[Arial]

So, connecting the dots, all people, Christian or not, are bound to the 10C.

Yes, though bound is not the word that should be used. That does not mean we obey it, but we are all obligated to our Creator as creatures He made. No one is exempt. That is why all transgressions meet the death penalty. And that is why we need a Redeemer.

Since you've also mentioned conscience in regard to moral law and since you connect moral law to the 10C, is there any indication that the conscience of pagan and/or pre-Moses mankind was ever, even today, for example, driven by conscience to observe the 7th day Sabbath?

There is no evidence that they didn't. That command has to do with honoring and worshiping God and pre figures our true rest in Christ. And pagan religions did have days and festivals and what not, just the wrong god. But the idea of conscience deals with knowing right and wrong, not all specifics. And we see in Romans 1,2, and 3 that God turned us over to our desires. And that does not mean that a conscience can't be seared by sin so it is no longer heard.

Since the 10C was part of the Law of Moses, and the entire Law of Moses was a single unit (if you break one, then you break them all), how do you transition the 10C being for not only the Christian, but also for the pagan in light of the entire Mosaic Covenant having vanished, and the Mosaic Law being the terms of that old Covenant?

Which came first? You need to stop focusing on the ten commandments and try and find the point I am making. They were mentioned in passing as an interesting summary of the entire code of ethics and responsibility that display God's moral character. Not every detail of His character. Keep the first four---our duty and obligation to our Maker---and you will be keeping the rest---our civil duty and obligation.

Isn't much of this a theory that this moral law has existed from the beginning and is carried through to this day and beyond?

Is God a moral being---perfect in all His ways? Has God always existed? Then moral law has always existed. He made us. We belong to Him. He made us in His image and in His likeness. Wouldn't that mean He intended us to be perfect in all our earthly, human ways? Is what He intended law? Can that law be broken? Yes, and it was, and it is ten billion times every second of every day. It is still law.

It's obvious that something was in play, and I do think the responsibility of the creature to the Creator and His image is an important consideration

It is more than an important consideration. It is God's law. (Now pause a moment to take a breath as you melt with gratitude that He sent is own Son to take our place and pay for our sins. All sin is lawlessness. And that Jesus came and did.)

But "moral law" seems a construct of men in their attempt to understand their history and their God.

It is not a construct of men. It is a way of describing something that is fact.

And your work is that of me who have been working on and debating this for millennia.

That makes no sense to me.