God is not fair: Moses forbidden to enter the Promised Land

[atpollard]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

 

[Arial]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

There are at least two Christians who have those thoughts. You and me.

I suppose what I do would be compartmentalizing, in a sense, but really how else can one deal with it. Some things we will never know or understand this side of the grave. I know in my first read through of the Bible which began the day of my union with Him, I began knowing that every word in there was true and set out to read the words. I am an animal lover and one of the things that got me most early on was the animal sacrifices, and the sheer volume of them. And yes, then all I could do was say God did it, so I cannot question it, and I would slide over them. But not without having the initial reaction that you speak of. And then there are His orders to kill all the men and sometimes also the women and children and animals. These are hard sayings. Men of Israel cut down in their prime and on the spot for daring to touch what was holy. Moses barred from the Promised Land.

Now though I do not have full understanding, and never lose the reaction I have learned more about who God is and who we are in comparison. And if a person did not cringe at those things there would be something seriously wrong with them. If nothing else, it should teach us just how holy God is, and how unholy we are. It should at least show us the magnitude of Adam's original transgression and our own transgressions, and Who we transgressed against. It should put us in our place. (An aside: I think that is one of the greatest resistances to Reformed theology. A refusal to look at those hard things about God, preferring to ignore them altogether.)

As to judgement day and your scenario. One could certainly get such a picture from what happened to Moses. But Moses lived and served God at a time when a particular portion of God's plan of redemption was active. He was getting ready to do something specific and we see what that is in the OT with the Mosaic covenant, and we see the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith running through that, and then being fulfilled in Christ. God was teaching the Israelites who He is. And sometimes they needed to have it illustrated in real life. I Am is holy. We are His servants. He is King. We are His subjects. They had to learn how serious a matter this is. And the covenant was necessary and the Law of the covenant was necessary, ultimately, so that true and perfect obedience could be achieved by Christ.

The covenant of righteousness by faith is now fulfilled. The believer has His righteousness and our sins have met justice and cannot condemn us, and we are promised that we are sealed in Christ, and will inherit the kingdom.

 

[Mr GLee]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

I see that a little differently

The Bible sola scriptura is the one record of all that has been done Not Books one book the written law of God (Jesus said to the Father it is finished) sealed with 7 seals til the end of time the last day under the Sun

God uses dying flesh to represent his unseen power of faith

Exodus 7:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Moses is used to represent our unseen Holy Father according to God's instrument the letter of the law "death" He was to strike the Rock once to represent the three day and night demonstration that began in the garden moved to a hill then then the tomb. Three different kinds of demonstrations pointing to one conclusion (It is finished)

Fulfilling the prophecy found in Isaiah 53 which began in Genesis 3:15 (Two witnesses) The Father striking the Son bruised his heel crushing the head of the serpent.

It was needed to help I believe us to understand the principle that in the new heavens and earth there will be no suffering as in dying coming to a end . The death of death the letter of the law represented by Moses.. . .thou shall not or you're dead. In the new order Death . . . . will not rise up and codem to suffering another creation . death represented by Moses could never enter the promised land

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death

The second death. . . the death of death. . they already have the born again spirit and a living hope of a new body that will never suffer and die . The second death the sting of the law removed in Christ no fear of suffering after one takes thier last breath of oxygen the second death has no hold Yoked with Christ our daily sufferings is made lighter

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Striking in twice would be like the group in Hebrew 6 those who would crucify him over and over to public shame as if one promised demonstration was not enough to please the father of lies

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Not the death of humans hell sufferings forever its appointed for human to in dying come to a end once .No retrial . .declared guilty

The second death has no hold on those born again . The sufferings of hell will as one be cast in the fiery judgment never to rise No need for limbo or purgatory what ever they are designed to do?

 

[CrowCross]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

The following is from a Got Questions response....

Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?​

"The punishment may seem harsh to us, but, when we look closely at Moses’ actions, we see several mistakes. Most obviously, Moses disobeyed a direct command from God. God had commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock with his staff. Earlier, when God had brought water from a rock, He instructed Moses to strike it with a staff (Exodus 17). But God’s instructions were different here. God wanted Moses to trust Him, especially after they had been in such close relationship for so many years. Moses didn’t need to use force; he simply needed to obey God and know that God would be true to His promise."

 

[Mr GLee]

The following is from a Got Questions response....

Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?​

"The punishment may seem harsh to us, but, when we look closely at Moses’ actions, we see several mistakes. Most obviously, Moses disobeyed a direct command from God. God had commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock with his staff. Earlier, when God had brought water from a rock, He instructed Moses to strike it with a staff (Exodus 17). But God’s instructions were different here. God wanted Moses to trust Him, especially after they had been in such close relationship for so many years. Moses didn’t need to use force; he simply needed to obey God and know that God would be true to His promise."

Moses in that parable is used as a type of God used to demonstrate Gods (not moses) tool of judgment. the letter of the law "death" etched in stone by the finger of God . God moved Moses to strike it twice to give us the understand the letter of the law will not be present in the new heavens and earth he di not cause Moses to sin rather than demonstrate the gospel

2 Corinthians 3:5-7King James Version5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way.

You and Moses fer sure, fer sure.

Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

On the other hand, there's no indication that Moses was denied ETERNAL LIFE in Heaven, which is a reward much greater than the "Privilege" of leading a tribe of rebellious, hateful, bone-heads across the river into the promised land, With all the complications that Joshua had to face. Moses was probably MORE THAN READY to be rid of them at that point.

Strikes me that Moses wasn't in a real good mood (no surprise, given the general level of cooperation that he always got from the stiff-necked Isrealites), and instead of OBEYING what God had told him, in his anger, he STRUCK THE ROCK, instead of speaking to it as instructed.
The rock, of course was an anti-type of Jesus, and the FIRST TIME the rock was stuck (Crucified) to give water, but the second time the rock only had to be spoken to (Jesus sacrifice was ONCE for all and we now ASK FATHER in jesus' name).

Moses wasn't a "Newby", and for him to "go Rogue" ("crucifying Jesus" AGAIN before all the people) after all his experience handling things with the Israelites and God, it's NOT an ERROR that he should have made at his level of development. it wasn't a "Trivial" disobedience in God's sight. God doesn't appreciate his "ante-types" to get messed up by man's emotional weakness.

However God gave water to the people anyway, despite Moses' emotionalrebellion.

And God personally took care of Moses' death and burial in an unknown place. (Deut 34:1-6).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course that's the reason the JESUS was needed. ALL SAINTS are experimentally "imperfect" - some more than others, but as BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, we're ALL PERFECT WITH JESUS' PERFECTION, so your "Squatter's Community" doesn't exist.

 

[CrowCross]

Moses in that parable

Parable????

 

[CrowCross]

Moses wasn't a "Newby", and for him to "go Rogue" ("crucifying Jesus" AGAIN before all the people)

Hebrews 6 is based upon this..." 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt"

 

[makesends]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]
1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

The following is from a Got Questions response....

Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?​

"The punishment may seem harsh to us, but, when we look closely at Moses’ actions, we see several mistakes. Most obviously, Moses disobeyed a direct command from God. God had commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock with his staff. Earlier, when God had brought water from a rock, He instructed Moses to strike it with a staff (Exodus 17). But God’s instructions were different here. God wanted Moses to trust Him, especially after they had been in such close relationship for so many years. Moses didn’t need to use force; he simply needed to obey God and know that God would be true to His promise."

I agree. Moses didn't do "just one little mistake" —he had a character flaw: even though he was "the most humble man ever", he was impatient, he was an angry man. And like all of us, he had a tendency, in his impatience, to 'take over' for God.

I think it is a mistake to look at what one is given and what is taken away from a person in this life as a commentary on God's fairness; if we are honest, we would see that he is more-than-gracious even there, but it is more than just to do with this life. God has many purposes for what he does.

What @Arial said, ("who God is and who we are in comparison"), to me very well describes a proper way to look at this. God is so far above us, in purity and in very mode of existence, that we are by comparison less than worms. Ontologically, 'we ain't so much'.*

What we see as punishment metered out upon Moses, at a minimum also served as a lesson for future generations of Israelites; it wasn't only punishment. And God is more than fair to use us this way. This life is not for this life.

I have been criticized for saying that. People tell me that I should have said, "this life is not for this life alone." And they have a point, but to me, this life does not compare with what is to come. Scripture describes it as a vapor, smoke, here and gone, in contrast to the solid reality of God's economy.


*O.T. —(or is it?) The principle of God being so far above us applies across the board —every doctrine is affected by it. Look at the difference between so many things; for eg. what God calls sin and what we call sin; between God's will being free and our silly notions of free will; between God being life itself and us being alive (and "us" is proper grammar there, since we are recipients of life, and we do not generate it).

 

[Mr GLee]

Parable????

Yes parables comparing the things seen the temporal as a shadow to the things not seen the eternal Moses represent the letter of the law God's instrument death He himself is not death as a destroyer the flesh . Moses to represent the Holy Father was to strike the rock representing the law "death" once to fulfil the two prophecies The father striking the Son bruising his heel crushing the head of the serpent The Holy father moving Moses to help us understand their will be no death in the new heaven and earth the letter of the law death has been exchanged for the law of grace mercy mixed with grace eternal life .The just and justifier. . . one Christ the Holy anointing Spirit of God the Mighty One

 

[turbomaniac]

God is NEVER UNFAIR. Moses didn't enter the promised land but we can see Moses and Elias discussing with God during His Metamorphosis. So I think God gave a very special place to Prophet Moses.

 

[fastfredy0]

Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be.

I doubt that. I admire what God has done with you. Your story is inspiring; God being the author and facilitator of your story IMO.

However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ...

Serving God is only a human conception IMO. We can do nothing for God (Job 35:7-8). Is God not the author of our salvation and service?

what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Harsh from a human stand point perhaps. What is better, to be with the Lord or to continue life in the Holy Land. A matter of perspective.
Regarding Mose's disobedience ... The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

Agreed, God is perfect. He is right by definition. Granted, if one makes God in the image of man then one can identify issues by looking thru that lens. It's not fair to not give everyone a chance to be saved; not fair for God to not love everyone as He does Christ, not fair that one man is born blind or a man does not hear the gospel ... yahda, yahda

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

I see things differently. We are all IN CHRIST and God therefore see us as He see Christ. Granted, that's not fair from a human stand point but I am joyful to accept that "unfairness".

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

I imagine your a better Christian than I from a human stand point and my instinct is to think from a human stand point too. (My ways are not your ways and my thoughts not your thoughts being another relevant verse IMO)
Aside: You also very analytical/intelligent (giggle). ... so lighten up.... (giggle) ... Love ya.

God’s purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy him forever; as he is the cause of all, so he is the end of all.
Colossians 1:15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.

... my 2 cents worth

 

[CrowCross]

God is NEVER UNFAIR. Moses didn't enter the promised land but we can see Moses and Elias discussing with God during His Metamorphosis. So I think God gave a very special place to Prophet Moses.

Moses did appear on the Mt. of Transfiguration.

 

[atpollard]

I imagine your a better Christian than I from a human stand point and my instinct is to think from a human stand point too.
Aside: You also very analytical/intelligent (giggle). ... so lighten up.... (giggle) ... Love ya.

I am also naturally deceitful and skilled in the art of rhetoric, so the OP employs elements of "sarcasm" and "hyperbole" to attempt to draw people into the discussion. [Mwaah Hah Ha]

... but I always did get the feeling that Moses' punishment didn't quite fit the crime, of course NOBODY wants to think that God might have overreacted. (I certainly don't.) I was prompted to start this discussion because I heard an explanation that turned the whole thing on its head.

God was not "punishing" Moses at all. God was "protecting" His people.

The explanation went something like this:

• The people left Egypt knowing nothing but SLAVERY for generations. They had no other world view from which to comprehend anything except the experience of a Master ordering a Slave around and harshly punishing disobedience.
• God sent Moses to lead the people out of Egypt with a staff, like the Egyptian Masters carried as a symbol of authority, and dealt with them in the "language" they were capable of understanding.
• Moses struck the rock the first time as a slave would expect a master to strike a servant to compel obedience. The people were able to understand God commanding them through that imagery.
• Forty years passed. Those people raised slaves died in the wilderness. These people were the people of God that had known nothing except the God that offers shade and light and provision. There is no need for the people of God to approach God as a Slave approaches a Master, expecting a beating for any slight disobedience.
• God sent Moses to SPEAK to the rock and command water to come forth ... as a son might approach a father and expect provision from him. However, while the PEOPLE had changed, Moses had not. Moses was incapable of growing out of the mode he had left Egypt with.
• The people deserved a leader that would represent a loving God leading His people with his words ... gently. Not an Egyptian Master leading the people with a rod and beatings.

Thus Moses was the man to reach the GENERATION and lead them out of Egyptian Slavery, but Moses was not the man to lead the GENERATION of free people to follow their loving God into the land He had promised to give them.

Different horses for different courses ... Moses was no longer the right horse for the course ahead.
Not about PUNISHING MOSES ... about BLESSING the PEOPLE.

I was just curious what other people thought before I offered this new option for consideration.
I am still chewing it over.

 

[atpollard]

I see that a little differently

Moses in that parable is used as a type of God used to demonstrate Gods (not moses) tool of judgment.

Yes parables comparing the things seen the temporal as a shadow to the things not seen the eternal Moses represent the letter of the law God's instrument death He himself is not death as a destroyer the flesh .

I have to admit that your POV is so unique that I really just need to think it over more to know how I feel about it. [I really am just "unsure"].
Thank you for pushing me in new and unexpected directions.

 

[turbomaniac]

Moses did appear on the Mt. of Transfiguration.

Thank you for the remarque Metamorphosis is the ancient greek word

 

[fastfredy0]

Thus Moses was the man to reach the GENERATION and lead them out of Egyptian Slavery, but Moses was not the man to lead the GENERATION of free people to follow their loving God into the land He had promised to give them.

Different horses for different courses ... Moses was no longer the right horse for the course ahead.
Not about PUNISHING MOSES ... about BLESSING the PEOPLE.

I was just curious what other people thought before I offered this new option for consideration.
I am still chewing it over.

Too many assumptions for me. If "Moses was no longer the right horse for the course ahead" then God simply changes Moses' disposition like He did with Saul/Paul.
From a human guessing stand point I speculate the Moses was getting too big for his bridges and God wanted to humble Moses so the people would glorify God more and not Moses. God is transcendent, so just wild guesses.
Aside: I'm still trying to figure out why God has given me a winning lottery number... ... though being chosen by Him is definitely a BIG WIN!!

 

[Mr GLee]

Thank you for the remarque Metamorphosis is the ancient greek word

It was a vision a picture used as a figure of speech .No literal flesh and blood as a shift changers.. . .science fiction

 

[Eleanor]

Numbers 20 [NKJV]

1 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.​

​

2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the LORD! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them.​

​

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.​

​

10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.​

​

12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

​

13 This was the water of Meribah, because the children of Israel contended with the LORD, and He was hallowed among them.​

I am sure that I am the ONLY person ever to feel this way. Everyone else is so much more "Christian" than I seem to be. However, for Moses to serve God so faithfully for ... what is it, something like 8 decades ... make one mistake, and be disqualified from the promise that the REST OF THE COMMUNITY gains ... feels a little harsh and ...

Can we be honest here? ... just a little discouraging. [Well, maybe more than a little.]

Of course, a REAL CHRISTIAN(TM) would never think such thoughts, so I do what any good proselyte would do ... I compartmentalize heavily and avoid thinking about it. Just skip over that part of scripture in the annual reading and avoid asking any questions.

God is right ... God is right ... God is right (chant along with me until the questions disappear).

The part that REALLY bothers me about this is imaging its implication to Heaven. Let's use the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation as a starting point for our visualization. There is a great mansion with many rooms ... but all of them are empty. As the Saints approach the "Pearly Gates" and the Book of Life is opened, they are found to be Citizens of Heaven, but as the Books of all that has been done are opened, one by one they are banned from entry, just as Moses was. Thus outside the walls, along the tree lined river, a great squatters community of imperfect saints grows and grows.

Of course, y'all are REAL CHRISTIANS(TM) so you never think such thoughts or find anything God does hard to understand.
It is just me that wonders about such things.

Don't forget about Uzzah.

I'm thinkin' what I don't understand here, I will be applauding there (in glory).

 

[Mr GLee]

Too many assumptions for me. If "Moses was no longer the right horse for the course ahead" then God simply changes Moses' disposition like He did with Saul/Paul.
From a human guessing stand point I speculate the Moses was getting too big for his bridges and God wanted to humble Moses so the people would glorify God more and not Moses. God is transcendent, so just wild guesses.
Aside: I'm still trying to figure out why God has given me a winning lottery number... ... though being chosen by Him is definitely a BIG WIN!!

Moses used to represent the letter of the law in that parable . The letter death was used twice to indicate the father striking the Son of man bruises his heel crushing the head of the father of lies ( the letter of the law deader than a doornail will not be part of the new order. Death will not enter the new . It (death) is tossed into the final judgment fire never to rise and codem through sufferings another entire creation .