Free will. What is it?

[Josheb]

choosing to be sinless is an oxymoron..

Then that is an example of a lack of freedom of the human will.

Have you ever chosen something against your will. because you had to serve someone?

That, too, would be an example of a limitation on the human will.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Prove it.

prove he did not

Rewording the claim does not prove it correct. Moving the goalpost away from Adam to Abraham (or Eve) does not prove the claim correct, either.

Saying something did not happen does not prove it either

That is not an answer to the question asked.

Where might I and all the other participants in this thread look to find scripture explicitly attributing what happened to Adam's ability to (freely) choose?

Just show me the scripture. Nothing more is asked.

All you have done is insert strawman arguments.

You demand I prove my point. Yet you act is if your view is valid..

Lets try to stick to the word. You want to give me your view. feel free..

Don't think you can sit there and attack every word i say and I am just going to fall on my face.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course, God caused none of this.

amen,

he did not cause hitler. he did not cause David to take in Bathsheba and murder her husband/. he did not cause me to call out to him in faith to receive his grace gift.

I still had to chose to say Yes God save me, Or no God I do not want your grace.

he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We are saved by grace. Let that sink in for a while.

yes, Amen and Amen.

but continue the sentence.

we have been saved ( a comp0leted action) by Grace through faith.

you can not remove faith from the question

 

[Carbon]

but he still has the freedom to chose does he not?

I never said he did not. It's what he is free to choose and not free to choose.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ok.

Yes, because the things of the Spirit are spiritually discerned.

So, you are saying someone who does not understand the things spiritually discerned, can choose to understand things that are spiritually discerned? It is just a choice?

what is the gospel?

 

[Carbon]

you can not remove faith from the question

But it was not a question.

 

[Carbon]

what is the gospel?

The gospel is about the Son of God, Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Josheb]

.....I don't believe that humans have a free will—because (a) God is sovereign and (b) unregenerate man is enslaved to sin.

Being in Adam who is now a sinner, all mankind now is born a sinner. Slaves to sin as Paul says. A slave obeys his master. Therefore, our will is driven by our nature. We always choose what we want. Not free...

Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

.
Exactly and inescapably correct. Slaves are not volitionally free. At best, they have the liberty to make choices only as far as their controls permit.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is a shifting onus. That question attempts to shift the burden of proving the op's assertion onto someone else to prove an alternative. That is fallacious. The new forum rule requires me to prove the fallacy so HERE and HERE are two sources defining the fallacy. It is up to you to prove scripture attributes what happened in Genesis 3:6-7 to Adam's free choice, not up to me to prove something different.

So, please either provide the scripture requested, or correct the fallacious statement (or both).

this is called an illogical falacy. and hypoocricy

You demand I prove it by the word. and I demand you prove it by the word.

The problem you fail to realize is NEITHER ONE OF US CAN!

that's makes it invalid.

You will not find a passage of scripture that says adam had the ability to resist the sin of temptation and not eat of the tree.. Nor will you find in the word anything that says he had no choice in the matter, He had no ability to not chose to sin.

But carry on..

Been here done that many times..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The gospel is about the Son of God, Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.

is it not more than that?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But it was not a question.

sorry spell check

equation.

I was saved by grace through faith

remove faith. and you remove my salvation, it never happened

 

[Josheb]

this does not make sense.. Could we keep it more simple?

Maybe. The ability to keep "it" simple is dependent on you.

We all agree an ability to make choices exists. Is that ability to choose absent or void of any and all controls? (it is a simple yes or no question) it does not get any "more simple" than that.

 

[Josheb]

sorry spell check

equation.

I was saved by grace through faith

remove faith. and you remove my salvation, it never happened

From whence did that faith (the faith through which you were saved) come?

 

[fastfredy0]

I use the word freedom of will.

...but you're missing the crux of most "free will" discussions. Who determines your desires (will)?

If God determines all choices.. Then that does not say very much about God (in my view) technically it would also free the one who sinned from any responsibility

Responsibility is not defined as you have the ability to do something; rather, an authority has determined that you must do something. If the university says you must get a 700 on your S.A.T.s then you are responsible for doing so despite your capabilities.
God says you must not sin so you are responsible even though it is not possible. Using your statement one could infer you do not think much of God for He has made you responsible for your sins.

did God cause us to do what he determined?

Yes. Look up the Law of Causality for proof.

agreed, He did not force you to not be regenerated either.

True ... but God did not give you a change to reject Him; rather, God changed your heart (desires) via regeneration and with your God changed desires you choose to follow God rather than Satan.

 

[Josheb]

prove he did not

This is another example of shifting onuses.


The new rule requires you to address the fallacy and resolve it, or have the posts reported.

All you have done is insert strawman arguments.

Prove it.

The new forum Rule 4.4 requires posters to prove a claim of fallacy is an actual fallacy and NOT misuse the accusation to derail the thread.

 

[Eleanor]

No.

Use "able to choose what we prefer," AND necessarily understand that ability to choose what we prefer occurs in the context of are
1) able to choose what we think we prefer and
2) able t to choose what we (think we) prefer within an array of controlling influences.
That is what scripture teaches. It is also what we experience and observe every day all day long. Once the predicates are understood it is also the logical necessity. The angel is in the details. As someone else has already observed no human will can ever defy God's will. Another poster has observed every human is enslaved by sin. There are many other powers and controls that influence every decision ever made. An ability to choose exists, but it is not free. Given the many, many, many forces bearing down on us every moment of every decision it is amazing that any ability at all persists.

It is still "what we prefer."

That is a function of grace.

Grace giving us to prefer it and, therefore, we choose it.

 

[Josheb]

see this is what I mean

I am not here to discuss calvinism, armenianism, monergism or any ism.

I never said you were. I simply observed you've entered a forum laden with monergists and are attempting to define free will and prove the definition correct. That is what everyone here is trying to discuss....... regardless of their soteriological orientation. [Text deleted by moderator.]

Are you here to discuss the op's definition (which all but one disagrees with)? If so, then do so. [Text deleted by moderator.]

 

[Eleanor]

choosing to be sinless is an oxymoron..

Not in the meaning of the words.

Have you ever chosen something against your will. because you had to serve someone?

I made the choice of that something because of another choice I made--to serve someone.

 

[Josheb]

It is still "what we prefer."

Giving us to prefer it and, therefore, we choose it.

That is incorrect. Or, rather, I will say that is often incorrect. People quite often make choices against their preferences. This ranges from commonly occurring deferences to the wishes of others to the equally commonly occurring condition of competing preferences. There are also several psychological conditions where a person makes choices completely contrary to their best interests (which, presumably, they would prefer). At its worst, the latter results in a variety serious mental illnesses.

I have yet to delve into these and other limitations but some simple observations readily reveal the deterministic context in which every single choice is made and none of the have to do with God (or sin) directly controlling the human will. None of us, for example, can fully understand all the past events that in from, influence and control every single moment of choice. Neither do any of us know everything, so every single moment of choice is necessarily and deterministically limited to the known options (even though an infinite number of alternatives may exist). Neither do any of us know all the possible consequences or repercussions of any one choice we make so every choice is also made in ignorance of its effects. That's just one choice by one person. If we mix in all the choices of all the other people before, during, and after a choice is made (like the choices of the eleven people posting in this thread) then the premise of "free" choice is nonsensical. No one is actually free in their ignorance.

Time and space alone are incredibly controlling.

No human will can ever usurp God's will. That is axiomatic. No sinful human can ever usurp sin, either. It has already been observed (correctly) that choosing not to be sinful is an oxymoron. No human, sinful or not, can usurp the limits of creation.

There is no such thing as free will.