Forgiveness

[Arial]

Forgiveness is one of the hardest things for a Christian to do and also one of the hardest things to understand as to what forgiveness is---what it looks like in our thoughts as well as our actions. There are so many things done to people by people where forgiving seems impossible because it is seen by us as saying that the person is released from all consequences for their actions. That we were not genuinely wounded, even marked and scarred by what was done to us. It feels like they get off scot free while we suffer the hurt. Or that in forgiving them, we should no longer have those feelings of emotional or physical pain.

There arises in us a natural need for retribution or revenge. To make the other person pay in some way. And even though we say we forgive because the Bible tells us we must, and we do not understand forgiveness, therefore our "get even" may not be overt, yet continues covertly, or in our desires. It may go unrecognized by the person doing it, and be invisible to everyone but the one on the receiving end of this covert retribution of exacting payment.

I believe there is a profound understanding of what forgiveness is in the wording of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus says, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." I see this as a direct reference to the OT laws concerning the forgiveness of debts.

Deut 15:1-2 At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor. He shall not exact it of his neighbor, his brother, because the Lord's release has been proclaimed.

Deut 15: 12-13 If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed.

Deut 15:18 It shall not seem hard to you when you let him go free from you, for at half the cost of a hired worker he has served you six years. So the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.

So forgiving a debt as is mentioned in the Lord's Prayer is, not just saying, but believing and acting/thinking accordingly, that the person who wronged you does not owe you anything. Retribution and vengeance is left with God where it belongs. We are instructed to not repay evil for evil and to love our enemies and our neighbors. Loving our enemies and neighbor is not a matter of feelings. It is not withholding good from them if we see them in need---as in the parable of the good Samaritan.

Saying someone does not owe us anything when put into action includes not subteley exacting payment from them forever by withholding themselves or their approval by showing partiality and unfairness from a position of authority. And certainly this would apply if one has not actually been wronged but merely hurt someone's feelings by say, correcting them when they were obviously in the wrong. It is to judge unjustly.

When it comes to the bigger, actual wrongs that inevitably mark us, but do not or should not destroy us as we have an advocate in Christ, coming to a place where we rest in the Just Judge, and arrive with His aid, the Shepherd who leads us in paths of righteousness, to where we truly forgive the debt, leaving the person in God's hand; this is forgiveness. It is something for us, not the other person. Also it is not always instant, and it is not always a one time thing but may need to be sometimes revisited as we find our minds return to the wrong and the pain of it. We need to learn to make the distinction between feelings and our heart and when the feelings overwhelm us to hide ourselves in Him, and let our desire to please Him be our deepest cry, and wait upon Him for He will again strengthen our heart.

And above all, remember the magnitude of the debt we owe God, and Jesus who came and paid that debt for us, that He might bestow grace and mercy, forgiveness, upon us. We are to show mercy because we have been shown such unimaginable mercy. We are to forgive our debtors even as He has forgiven our debt.

 

[ReverendRV]

<snip> There arises in us a natural need for retribution or revenge. To make the other person pay in some way. And even though we say we forgive because the Bible tells us we must, and we do not understand forgiveness, therefore our "get even" may not be overt, yet continues covertly, or in our desires. It may go unrecognized by the person doing it, and be invisible to everyone but the one on the receiving end of this covert retribution of exacting payment. <snip>

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth; is the Law of God. We're Created in his Image, with his Communicable Attributes. For God, it's a Law he can Keep without Sinning...

But the Fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Temperance: against such there is no Law. Forgiveness HAS to be All of Grace...

 

[civic]

70 times 7 daily was Jesus response to Peter.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?”

Jesus forgave His persecutors on the cross and asked the Father to forgive them too.

Jesus being God took matters to the heart . Forgiveness is a matter of the heart. Pride is a killer and forgiveness is a healer.

I know this personally with my Calvinist brothers and sisters . I’ve been set free from the pride, bitterness and resentment I had towards them . Asking for forgiveness was the answer to being set free. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. And having the peace of God that surpasses all understanding is amazing. Don’t let a root of bitterness rob you from being at peace with all men.

Be imitators of Christ !

hope this helps !!!

 

[Lee]

Greetings,

It’s interesting when you read Galatians 5.22-23 and it identifies the 9 characteristics that can be manifested through our lives as we transform and walk in the Spirit.

You may notice that compassion, discretion, empathy, forgiveness, grace, humility, mercy, respect, and sympathy are not fruits of the Spirit.

That’s because these other qualities are all free will choices.

Its up to the individual to exercise compassion, discretion, empathy, forgiveness, grace, humility, mercy, respect, or sympathy etc. towards another person or situation.

That’s why there not fruits of the Spirit.

What many people may not realize is forgiveness is for our own benefit and health.

When we hold on to the debts and liabilities of another person, we are the ones that affected by it not them.

They might not even know how we feel towards them.

But we are the ones that are tormented and suffer the pain and anguish for our decision because they have genuinely hurt us.

However, when we release the debts and liabilities of another person who doesn’t deserve it.

In reality we are exercising our own compassion grace and mercy and by releasing them from any debts and liabilities they owe us.

In return we are releasing ourselves from any penalty or punishment to our own detriment.

Forgiveness is for our own benefit and health that is the incentive and reward for exercising unmerited favor where it is not deserved earned or warranted.

It’s a win win situation for every one and we can maintain our peace of mind and move on.

Blessings & Peace

Lee.

 

[Behold]

Reader,

One of the ways to not have Joy in your Christianity, is because you are holding on to unforgiveness.

So, lets say you have forgiven everyone who hurt you, betrayed you, or used you.

Ok Great.

Now, are you angry at God?
What?
What was that?
I said, are you angry at God?

That can happen.
It happens a lot., and in that case, you need to forgive God for whatever you believe He didn't solve, or get right, or satisfy.
Forgive God.

And after you do that, you have one more to forgive....

You have to forgive yourself, reader.
Yes you.
You have to forgive you... You have to let go of that self judgment, that self hatred, that, UNFORGIVENESS, that you feel toward yourself, because you failed something, or you hurt someone you love, or you just make a stupid mistake and you are still paying for it, years later.

Listen, ..

You have to let that go from your heart, as that is self poisoning.
You are drinking your own poison, and you have to stop now., reader.
just leet it go. Forgive yourself... You are just human, and we all understand what that is like and what that can cause.

So, forgive yourself....
Forgive yourself, for whatever you have done.... as God has already forgiven you.

Forgive yourself.

 

[donadams]

For me it’s very simple very easy

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

It’s an acts of the will, “I choose to forgive you” it does mean you have to like the person.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

.
The Greek word - “ ἄφεσις - aphesis / af'-es-is “ means literally = To Fully Pardon - Complete Forgiveness,
to fully, completely Pardon as to Absolve, Exonerate, Forgive “ fully give freedom. “

and the truth is, this Greek word - ἄφεσις - aphesis - is only used 17 total times in the entire manuscripts of the N.T.
yet, we notice in the K.J.V translation the word forgive is used 69 total times

and we notice in the Catholic D.R.B. translation the word forgive is used 62 total times

forgive _____ 28 times, K.J.V / 26 times Catholic D.R.B.
forgiven _____ 24 K.J.V times, / 25 times, Catholic D.R.B.
forgave _____ 8 K.J.V times, / 4 times, Catholic D.R.B.
forgiveness _____ 6 K.J.V times, / 3 times, Catholic D.R.B.
forgiving _____ 2 K.J.V times, / 3 times, Catholic D.R.B.
forgiveth _____ 1 K.J.V times, / 1 times, Catholic D.R.B.
----------------------------
= ____ 69 total times - K.J.V / 62 total times - Catholic D.R.B.

In the Greek manuscripts - “ ἄφεσις - aphesis / af'-es-is “ is only used 17 total times, the question is why and what does this mean in context and what are the other Greek words used that the translators are using - as “ forgive “ ?

Here are the 17 total times this Greek word - ἄφεσις - aphesis - is used in the manuscripts,

Mat 26:28 my blood of the new testament, ….. is shed for many, for the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins;
Mar 1:4 John preached…….. baptism of repentance for the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins;
Mar 3:29 blaspheme the Spirit Of The Holy never has “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ in danger of eternal damnation:
Luk 1:77 Jesus gives………. knowledge of salvation ……… by the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of their sins;
Luk 3:3 { John the Baptist } ……… preaching the baptism of repentance for the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins;
Luk 4:18 to preach “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ to the captives - to set at “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ the broken
Luk 24:47 ……. repentance and “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins should be preached in his name
Act 2:38 Repent, and be baptized ……in the name of Jesus Christ for the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins;
Act 5:31 Jesus . …… Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins.
Act 10:43 whosoever believeth in him shall receive “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins.
Act 13:38 { Jesus } ……. this man is preached unto you the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins:
Act 26:18 that they may receive “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins; and inheritance ….. sanctified by faith that is in me.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins
Col 1:14 { in Jesus } we have redemption through his blood, even the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins.
Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood is no “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins;
Heb 10:18 Now where “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins; of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

these 17 total passages are truly the only instance in the New Testament where the Greek word pardon or forgive is used regarding God's pardon and forgiveness.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

The truth is - in fact, there is never again any other mentioning whatsoever a mention nor a usage of this Greek word in the New Testament manuscripts that are - applying the Forgiveness, Pardon - as to fully and completely Pardon as to Absolve, Exonerate, Forgive…… outside of these verses using the Greek word “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ 17 total times

And . . . . all of these passages are ONLY - ONLY centered around Gods shed blood and the work of God through repentance and the repentant sinner existing in the state and status of a sinner whom is receiving salvation by faith in His word .
This Greek word never, ever - never APPLIES nor APPEARS in the manuscripts - under any other circumstances in all of the approXimately other 50 verses where we see the word “ forgiveness “ in the translations


After we repent and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit we receive FORGIVENESS, PARDONING, ABSOLVING, EXONERATION of sins. God whom has already fully forgiven and pardoned, PARDONING our sins, this pardon and forgiveness was already done 2000 years ago on the cross by shedding his blood.

It is ONLY in this context that this Greek word is used and ALSO in the applied anointing to the context of the broken and repentant sinner believing as a sinner in repentance and receiving the “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins that was already given and completed 2000 years ago on the cross by the blood sacrifice……

That this pardon and forgiveness was already done 2000 years ago by shedding of blood on the cross, once we receive this knowledge and repent we are ….. sanctified by faith in his offering of salvation and receive “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins. Then another Greek word is used that is the Greek word

Χαρίζομαι - charizomai - meaning = To grant as a favor, that is, gratuitously, in kindness, pardon or rescue: - deliver, (frankly) forgive, (freely) give, grant

and ..... Χαρίζομαι - This Greek word “ forgive “ in the Bible - is never ever applied to God forgiving mankind but is only applied to mankind receiving from other mankind - ------ forgiveness as - mankind to mankind - not from God

the other 70 instance where the word FORGIVE is used - is the word - ἀφίημι - aphiēmi - meaning = To send forth - away , lay aside, leave, let alone, be gone, put away. yield up sin

God has already Pardoned and Forgiven, Absolved, Exonerated “ ἄφεσις - aphesis \ forgivness “ of sins.

AFTER WE REPENT - WE ASK THAT GOD WILL

“ ἀφίημι - aphiēmi “ our sins - meaning = To send away our sins to give us strength to - lay aside, leave, let alone and be gone and put away and yield up our sin that he has already forgiven / pardoned 2000 years ago that we receive by repenting, baptism and receiving the gift of the Spirit of the Holy by the Anointing Jesus

This “ ἄφεσις \ - aphesis forgivness “ Forgiveness and Pardon was already done Completed one time 2000 years ago by shedding of blood on the cross

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

:18 Now where “ ἄφεσις \ forgivness “ of sins; of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
the other 50 instance where the word " FORGIVE " is used - it is not the Greek word meaning to pardon and forgive, this was already completed by the Lord Jesus the Anointing by the shedding of his blood on the cross.

and this is a truthful reality in the New Testament.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

this completely removes any ideology for the Roman Catholic teaching that a priest can forgive sins

the Roman Catholic Translation and even this Catholic teaching - simply is not supported by the Greek manuscripts themselves

the King James version also does not convey this very clear message found within the manuscripts

 

[Josheb]

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth; is the Law of God.....

Which is about moral purity, equal justice and restitution, not retribution.

Exodus 21:18-36
If men have a quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but remains in bed, if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished; he shall only pay for his loss of time and shall take care of him until he is completely healed. "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth. If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule. If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. If a man opens a pit, or digs a pit and does not cover it over, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restitution; he shall give money to its owner, and the dead animal shall become his. If one man's ox hurts another's so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide its price equally; and also they shall divide the dead ox. Or if it is known that the ox was previously in the habit of goring, yet its owner has not confined it, he shall surely pay ox for ox, and the dead animal shall become his.

Deuteronomy 19:15-21
A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing, then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days. The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus, you shall purge the evil from among you. The rest will hear and be afraid and will never again do such an evil thing among you. Thus, you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Leviticus 24:17-22
If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. The one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. Thus, the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'"

All of the above occurs in the context of...

Leviticus 19:15
You shall not do injustice in judgment; you shall not show partiality to the poor nor give preference to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

Exodus 23:1-6
You shall not bear a false report; do not join your hand with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice; nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his dispute. If you meet your enemy's ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying helpless under its load, you shall refrain from leaving it to him, you shall surely release it with him. You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute.

Exodus 30:15
The rich shall not pay more, and the poor shall not pay less than the half shekel, when you give the contribution to the LORD to make atonement for yourselves.

Because God does not truly want His kingdom filled with blind, toothless people any more than he wants it filled with blind. handless people.

Proverbs 11:1
A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is His delight.

All stand poor before God. A man's wealth will not be taken with him through the grave. God will not take bribes and neither will He have pity because of one's poverty because the poverty of sin is detestable to Him and there is only one means of redress: a life for a life.

John 3:18 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
It is important to read the whole thing.

We're Created in his Image, with his Communicable Attributes. For God, it's a Law he can Keep without Sinning...

But the Fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Temperance: against such there is no Law. Forgiveness HAS to be All of Grace...

The greatest, and the second greatest, commandment is to love.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

We do not repay an eye for an eye, and evil with evil; and we do not take vengeance because that is God's job, and His alone. God's jurisprudence is conciliatory and restitutional, not vindictive and retributional. Hence the demand and expectation for forgiveness.

 

[EarlyActs]

Forgiveness is one of the hardest things for a Christian to do and also one of the hardest things to understand as to what forgiveness is---what it looks like in our thoughts as well as our actions. There are so many things done to people by people where forgiving seems impossible because it is seen by us as saying that the person is released from all consequences for their actions. That we were not genuinely wounded, even marked and scarred by what was done to us. It feels like they get off scot free while we suffer the hurt. Or that in forgiving them, we should no longer have those feelings of emotional or physical pain.

There arises in us a natural need for retribution or revenge. To make the other person pay in some way. And even though we say we forgive because the Bible tells us we must, and we do not understand forgiveness, therefore our "get even" may not be overt, yet continues covertly, or in our desires. It may go unrecognized by the person doing it, and be invisible to everyone but the one on the receiving end of this covert retribution of exacting payment.

I believe there is a profound understanding of what forgiveness is in the wording of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus says, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." I see this as a direct reference to the OT laws concerning the forgiveness of debts.

Deut 15:1-2 At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. And this is the manner of the release: every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor. He shall not exact it of his neighbor, his brother, because the Lord's release has been proclaimed.

Deut 15: 12-13 If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed.

Deut 15:18 It shall not seem hard to you when you let him go free from you, for at half the cost of a hired worker he has served you six years. So the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.

So forgiving a debt as is mentioned in the Lord's Prayer is, not just saying, but believing and acting/thinking accordingly, that the person who wronged you does not owe you anything. Retribution and vengeance is left with God where it belongs. We are instructed to not repay evil for evil and to love our enemies and our neighbors. Loving our enemies and neighbor is not a matter of feelings. It is not withholding good from them if we see them in need---as in the parable of the good Samaritan.

Saying someone does not owe us anything when put into action includes not subteley exacting payment from them forever by withholding themselves or their approval by showing partiality and unfairness from a position of authority. And certainly this would apply if one has not actually been wronged but merely hurt someone's feelings by say, correcting them when they were obviously in the wrong. It is to judge unjustly.

When it comes to the bigger, actual wrongs that inevitably mark us, but do not or should not destroy us as we have an advocate in Christ, coming to a place where we rest in the Just Judge, and arrive with His aid, the Shepherd who leads us in paths of righteousness, to where we truly forgive the debt, leaving the person in God's hand; this is forgiveness. It is something for us, not the other person. Also it is not always instant, and it is not always a one time thing but may need to be sometimes revisited as we find our minds return to the wrong and the pain of it. We need to learn to make the distinction between feelings and our heart and when the feelings overwhelm us to hide ourselves in Him, and let our desire to please Him be our deepest cry, and wait upon Him for He will again strengthen our heart.

And above all, remember the magnitude of the debt we owe God, and Jesus who came and paid that debt for us, that He might bestow grace and mercy, forgiveness, upon us. We are to show mercy because we have been shown such unimaginable mercy. We are to forgive our debtors even as He has forgiven our debt.

Have you had someone refuse to accept forgiveness because it implied that they actually had wronged you?

If there is church discipline involved, and the person stays in the behavior they were doing way past 7 years, are you saying that church declaration is to be retracted?

There are two places when a church discipline outcome is pretty much a burnt bridge. The instructions in Mt 18 (let them be to you as a tax collector or a pagan) or Titus 3 (have nothing to do with them).

What do you think of Elizabeth Jane in MAYOR OF CASTERBRIDGE whose alcoholic father keeps wronging her? He asks for forgiveness but she says 'why should I forgive you when you are still so cruel to me?' I think if you see it in context, she was a forgiving person and didn't need to do this 'for herself.' She was simply faced with a meaningless statement.

 

[Arial]

Have you had someone refuse to accept forgiveness because it implied that they actually had wronged you?

Yes.

If there is church discipline involved, and the person stays in the behavior they were doing way past 7 years, are you saying that church declaration is to be retracted?

I didn't say anything about the church or church discipline.

What do you think of Elizabeth Jane in MAYOR OF CASTERBRIDGE whose alcoholic father keeps wronging her? He asks for forgiveness but she says 'why should I forgive you when you are still so cruel to me?' I think if you see it in context, she was a forgiving person and didn't need to do this 'for herself.' She was simply faced with a meaningless statement.

OK.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes.

I didn't say anything about the church or church discipline.

OK.

Do you have any other comments on the last two? I don't know how actual wrongs could be apart from the church for believers; we are usually in a church, and the Mt 18 was about when they do it, because step 3 is to tell it to the church.

On 'continuing cruelty' (not persecution of a Christian), I think the NT always has a practicality point that limits a belief to some common sense. The remarriage rules are one of these (cheated believers can remarry widowed or nevers, but not even others who were cheated, and cheating spouses cannot remarry as Christians within a known fellowship and should reconcile.) Another limit is found in I Cor 7 'how do you know, wife, that you will persuade (the unbelieving husband) to believe?' So we are to try but it has its limits.

 

[Arial]

Do you have any other comments on the last two? I don't know how actual wrongs could be apart from the church for believers; we are usually in a church, and the Mt 18 was about when they do it, because step 3 is to tell it to the church.

What if the one who wronged you is not a believer? I posted the OP as a believer giving the responsibility and necessity of a believer towards all people. And to help us recognize when we say "I forgive" and actually think we have forgiven, but then engage in actions or thoughts that still view the one who wronged us as owing us something. We often do this subconsciously by exacting small payments as mentioned in the OP. Church discipline is important and sadly all too often never done. Or if done, done wrongly in a way that humiliates and shames a person publically. Before going to them privately.

I do not think there is any need for a believer to go to the church regarding wrongs done by a non believer, unless they need help with dealing or forgiving. But the church itself would have no authority over the unbeliever even to confront them. And it really seems like a whole separate topic, related to and important, (deserves a whole conversation about) but not the focus of the OP.

On 'continuing cruelty' (not persecution of a Christian), I think the NT always has a practicality point that limits a belief to some common sense. The remarriage rules are one of these (cheated believers can remarry widowed or nevers, but not even others who were cheated, and cheating spouses cannot remarry as Christians within a known fellowship and should reconcile.) Another limit is found in I Cor 7 'how do you know, wife, that you will persuade (the unbelieving husband) to believe?' So we are to try but it has its limits.

Yes.

 

[atpollard]

We do not repay an eye for an eye, and evil with evil; and we do not take vengeance because that is God's job, and His alone. God's jurisprudence is conciliatory and restitutional, not vindictive and retributional. Hence the demand and expectation for forgiveness.

Actually, God’s “jurisprudence” is both. (John 3:18)
There is a day for forgiveness, a “season of grace” (TODAY).
There is wrath stored up for a day of Judgement and Wrath (THE LAST DAY).

We are ‘ministers’ of God’s present season of GRACE: ambassadors extending His offer to “whosoever will”.
God will handle the WRATH, personally, when the time comes.

A personal story:

I was wronged as a child. The details are irrelevant, but the harm was real enough that I survived while burying my younger brothers who were crushed by the same ‘wrong’ and paid with their lives as adults. I hated those that had wronged us, both for myself and for my brothers they had destroyed. Prior to my salvation, I was fully capable of killing those responsible, but lacked the opportunity.​

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After my salvation, I had the opportunity, but was forbidden by this new code of FORGIVENESS. So I chose to forgive, but some things CANNOT be forgotten without being dragged back into former evils. However, one can choose to turn matters of ultimate JUSTICE over to the Ultimate JUDGE. To allow God to be the “blood avenger” and accept whatever He chooses will be the right choice.​

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Two lessons emerged over the subsequent decades. First, it was far better for ME to not carry that debt of hate. It allowed God to heal ME. Second, I lived long enough to see that God and sin were capable of exacting a far greater penalty than I ever would have. I might have killed those that I blamed, but God lifted His hand of restraint and ”turned them over” (as Romans 1 says) to self destruction far more terrible than I would ever have chosen to inflict on them.​

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So back to John 3:18 (not judged and already judged) and the GRACE vs WRATH twin paths to eternity. Just as God’s grace is far better than we could ever have imagined, so, too, God’s wrath is far more terrible than anything we could have thought to do to “balance a scale of Justice”. Therefore, we do well to choose to let go and leave both the ultimate GRACE and WRATH in God’s hands. “To obey is better than a sacrifice” … so let FORGIVENESS be your offering to God: “Lord, I trust you and, because I trust you, I forgive them.”​

 

[EarlyActs]

What if the one who wronged you is not a believer? I posted the OP as a believer giving the responsibility and necessity of a believer towards all people. And to help us recognize when we say "I forgive" and actually think we have forgiven, but then engage in actions or thoughts that still view the one who wronged us as owing us something. We often do this subconsciously by exacting small payments as mentioned in the OP. Church discipline is important and sadly all too often never done. Or if done, done wrongly in a way that humiliates and shames a person publically. Before going to them privately.

I do not think there is any need for a believer to go to the church regarding wrongs done by a non believer, unless they need help with dealing or forgiving. But the church itself would have no authority over the unbeliever even to confront them. And it really seems like a whole separate topic, related to and important, (deserves a whole conversation about) but not the focus of the OP.

Yes.

Do you think the topic of whether an incident is persecution (see the important phrase in Matt, for ex., 'because of me and the Gospel') is related enough?

I'm not sure why but I assumed you were referring to situations among believers.

 

[EarlyActs]

Reader,

One of the ways to not have Joy in your Christianity, is because you are holding on to unforgiveness.

So, lets say you have forgiven everyone who hurt you, betrayed you, or used you.

Ok Great.

Now, are you angry at God?
What?
What was that?
I said, are you angry at God?

That can happen.
It happens a lot., and in that case, you need to forgive God for whatever you believe He didn't solve, or get right, or satisfy.
Forgive God.

And after you do that, you have one more to forgive....

You have to forgive yourself, reader.
Yes you.
You have to forgive you... You have to let go of that self judgment, that self hatred, that, UNFORGIVENESS, that you feel toward yourself, because you failed something, or you hurt someone you love, or you just make a stupid mistake and you are still paying for it, years later.

Listen, ..

You have to let that go from your heart, as that is self poisoning.
You are drinking your own poison, and you have to stop now., reader.
just leet it go. Forgive yourself... You are just human, and we all understand what that is like and what that can cause.

So, forgive yourself....
Forgive yourself, for whatever you have done.... as God has already forgiven you.

Forgive yourself.

I would not dare to presume to know enough to "forgive God"; but you can certainly direct the blame elsewhere. In the classic doctrine of evil, the basic Christian distinction from other views is that there is not an intact line directly connecting God and evil in our lives. See F. Schaeffer "The Moral Problem" in HE IS THERE AND HE IS NOT SILENT.

 

[Arial]

Do you think the topic of whether an incident is persecution (see the important phrase in Matt, for ex., 'because of me and the Gospel') is related enough?

I'm not sure why but I assumed you were referring to situations among believers.

It is guaranteed we will be persecuted, either personally or Christ's church. It is pretty easy to forgive someone you feel sorry for, and persecution might kill us but if it does it only sends us Home.

 

[Josheb]

Actually, God’s “jurisprudence” is both. (John 3:18)
There is a day for forgiveness, a “season of grace” (TODAY).
There is wrath stored up for a day of Judgement and Wrath (THE LAST DAY).

Yes, so let me clarify. Here and now, on this side of the grave, what is expected of us is restitutional and reconciliation. There is a day coming when the just recompense for sin will be meted out, but 1) that's not our job; it is God's and only God's, and 2) it occurs on the other side of the grave.

We are ‘ministers’ of God’s present season of GRACE: ambassadors extending His offer to “whosoever will”. God will handle the WRATH, personally, when the time comes.

Yep.

Until then, there are very real and often painful consequences for wrongdoing. They occur as a consequence of God's created order and how He designed what happens when disobedience ensues. Any correction provided may be painful but should be intended to be restorative, rehabilitative, etc. and that applies even to the practice of discharging a believer from community or fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

flesh destroyed spirit saved


Forgiveness is of limited value of the parties remain estranged. One this side of the grave, reconciliation is not always possible, but it is the goal.