FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The Destiny Of The Unreached
[Any hope for them?]​

If you would give me your attention, consider with me the billions and billions of people who have lived and died who were never exposed to either audible or written messages from Heaven. Is there no hope for any of them? Let’s take this fascinating journey and parley about what Heaven says about it—if anything. —Buff.​

Hope For The Unexposed​

A few decades ago, someone tried to estimate the number of people who have lived and died upon planet Earth since the genesis of the human family. He supposed that if the earth were one great graveyard, the graves would be twenty deep—all over the mountains, the deserts, the rivers, and the oceans.

If his supposition is anywhere correct, just think of the billions and billions of people who have walked and died upon planet Earth, yet only a small percentage of them, perhaps less than 10 percent, have been exposed to what we call “special revelation” in the form of audible or written messages of a celestial kind. Is God unmindful of these billions of people? Has He not been aware of their plight and lack of opportunities? Has He not “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live”? And has He not done this “so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him”? After all, “He is not far from each one of us” [Acts 17:24-27].

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation. Consequently, there is no excuse for those who build and worship false gods and idols—whether symbols of persons, animals, or things. In addressing the fate of certain pagans, the apostle Paul accused them of “worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator,” and said they are “without excuse” [Rom. 1:18-25].
​

The Receptive Heart​

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

But why take the Good News about Jesus to him, if he is already safe in the arms of God? I answer by asking, Why cultivate a field of corn if it can be harvested without cultivation? To make it a better field of corn! We take the saving message to the honest unregenerate because we are thus commissioned, and because the “elected” ones need to hear and be spiritually cultivated—thereby producing a better harvest.

It is God’s intention, through the Good News, to not only save the unregenerate from their fallen nature, but that those who are righteous like Cornelius might be conformed to the image of His Son [2 Cor. 3:18]. This is why we take the saving message to the unregenerate. Those who are not seeking light will not accept it. For them, the sun has already set. But those who are seeking more light will grasp it.
​

The Mentally Competent​

Every mentally competent person who has ever lived has been able to find God, for “he has set eternity in the hearts of men” [Eccles. 3:11]. All men, everywhere and in every age, have been divinely infused with an awareness of an intelligent Creator and of life after physical death. On that principle, I must conclude there have been many “unexposed” persons who were receptive to the “revelation of creation.” And those who sought God’s face, as limited as it may have been, and who “by persistence in doing good sought glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7].

Jesus touched upon this kind of situation when He taught there is no guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths. The self-righteous Pharisees were chiding Him in their usual way. Following the healing of a blind man, He said He had come into the world that those who do not see may see, and that others who see may become blind. The Pharisees asked Him, “Are we blind, too” [of certain truths]? Jesus answered, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” [John 9:35-41].

We cannot pass this premise by without giving it our solemn attention. If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account. In a related passage, Jesus announces, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin” [John 15:22]
​

<><><>
​

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

 

[Mr GLee]

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation. Consequently, there is no excuse for those who build and worship false gods and idols—whether symbols of persons, animals, or things. In addressing the fate of certain pagans, the apostle Paul accused them of “worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator,” and said they are “without excuse” [Rom. 1:18-25].

I would offer.

I think he can reach out to the mentally incompetent as easy as one that is competent . It begins in the womb requiring rebirth . We have his mind. The face to face knowledge as it is written

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

Are you applying available light to the temporal seen, natural unconverted dying mankind ? If so that would seem to be hiding the true light of the gospel . He who does not have Mercy does not know God . God's essence is mercy Just as God is Light .

Two kinds of mercy Like usual Satan would make it all one in the same to tike away the spiritual unseen significance .

#1 mercy seasoned with grace salvation . #2 no grace. The kind of the mercy just as if they were never born the time of sufferings over .

Gods Mercy mixed with His saving Grace The tool for amending redeeming

James 2:12-14Young's Literal Translation12 so speak ye and so do, as about by a law of liberty (Grace) to be judged, for the judgment without kindness (Grace) to him not having done kindness,(Grace) and exult doth kindness(Grace) over judgment. What is the profit, my brethren, if faith,(The power to raise) any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

One source of light. Mercy mixed with grace . Called the just and the justifier

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The law. .Sola scriptura the food of the gospel law. The food the disciples knew not of .Power from the father to both understand and empower the Son of man to do it to the fathers good pleasure

Our daily bread or hidden manna

I would offer study to improve how to walk or understand by faith the unseen eternal things of Christ

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[CrowCross]

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].

In my opinion...I believe a person who has never heard about Christ..or given the opportunity such as a person born in 400BC in the middle of some jungle has the ability to look at "nature" and see the fingerprints of the one and only true God.
If they look at "nature" and ascribe what they see to a sun god, sky god, or some other idol rather than the one true Creator God...they have no salvation.

 

[Tambora]

The Destiny Of The Unreached
[Any hope for them?]​

If you would give me your attention, consider with me the billions and billions of people who have lived and died who were never exposed to either audible or written messages from Heaven. Is there no hope for any of them? Let’s take this fascinating journey and parley about what Heaven says about it—if anything. —Buff.​

Hope For The Unexposed​

A few decades ago, someone tried to estimate the number of people who have lived and died upon planet Earth since the genesis of the human family. He supposed that if the earth were one great graveyard, the graves would be twenty deep—all over the mountains, the deserts, the rivers, and the oceans.

If his supposition is anywhere correct, just think of the billions and billions of people who have walked and died upon planet Earth, yet only a small percentage of them, perhaps less than 10 percent, have been exposed to what we call “special revelation” in the form of audible or written messages of a celestial kind. Is God unmindful of these billions of people? Has He not been aware of their plight and lack of opportunities? Has He not “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live”? And has He not done this “so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him”? After all, “He is not far from each one of us” [Acts 17:24-27].

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation. Consequently, there is no excuse for those who build and worship false gods and idols—whether symbols of persons, animals, or things. In addressing the fate of certain pagans, the apostle Paul accused them of “worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator,” and said they are “without excuse” [Rom. 1:18-25].
​

The Receptive Heart​

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

But why take the Good News about Jesus to him, if he is already safe in the arms of God? I answer by asking, Why cultivate a field of corn if it can be harvested without cultivation? To make it a better field of corn! We take the saving message to the honest unregenerate because we are thus commissioned, and because the “elected” ones need to hear and be spiritually cultivated—thereby producing a better harvest.

It is God’s intention, through the Good News, to not only save the unregenerate from their fallen nature, but that those who are righteous like Cornelius might be conformed to the image of His Son [2 Cor. 3:18]. This is why we take the saving message to the unregenerate. Those who are not seeking light will not accept it. For them, the sun has already set. But those who are seeking more light will grasp it.
​

The Mentally Competent​

Every mentally competent person who has ever lived has been able to find God, for “he has set eternity in the hearts of men” [Eccles. 3:11]. All men, everywhere and in every age, have been divinely infused with an awareness of an intelligent Creator and of life after physical death. On that principle, I must conclude there have been many “unexposed” persons who were receptive to the “revelation of creation.” And those who sought God’s face, as limited as it may have been, and who “by persistence in doing good sought glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7].

Jesus touched upon this kind of situation when He taught there is no guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths. The self-righteous Pharisees were chiding Him in their usual way. Following the healing of a blind man, He said He had come into the world that those who do not see may see, and that others who see may become blind. The Pharisees asked Him, “Are we blind, too” [of certain truths]? Jesus answered, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” [John 9:35-41].

We cannot pass this premise by without giving it our solemn attention. If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account. In a related passage, Jesus announces, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin” [John 15:22]
​

<><><>
​

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

Good questions, and you have made a good effort to think through them.

Another example of hearing about God is from word of mouth, story telling from generation to generation.

I am going to post a chart that was created years ago by me and a few other members of another site showing the lifespans of people from Adam to Jacob to show how several generations were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the history of God from someone who lived it.

Chart posted in next post.

 

[Tambora]

Adam to Jacob (birth and death) timeline chart

The green numbers (*1, *2, *3, *4) are notes listed at bottom explaining how some of the dates were arrived at.​

​

(age of father at birth + year father was born) = birth year of person​

​

(birth year of person + how many years he lived) = year died​

1.Adam……….…….........................0………….0 + 930(GEN 5:5) = 930
2.Seth.......……..130(GEN 5:3) +0=130………..130+912(GEN 5:8) =1042
3.Enos ………..105(GEN 5:6) +130= 235……...235+905(GEN 5:11) =1140
4.Cainan ……….90(GEN 5:9) +235= 325………325+910(GEN 5:14) =1235
5.Mahalalel....….70(GEN 5:12) +325= 395…….395+895(GEN 5:17) =1290
6.Jared............65(GEN5:15) +395= 460……..460+962(GEN 5:20) =1422
7.Enoch ........…162(GEN 5:18) +460= 622……622+365(GEN 5:23) = 987 *1
8.Methuselah .….65(GEN 5:21)+622= 687…….687+969(GEN 5:27) =1656 *2
9.Lamech ……...187(GEN 5:25) +687= 874……874+777(GEN 5:31) =1651

(Notice that all of the above were born before Adam died. All were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the garden of Eden from Adam himself.)

10.Noah ........…...182(GEN 5:28) +874=1056……....1056+950(GEN 9:29) = 2006
11.Shem............ 502(GEN 5:32)*3 +1056=1558…...1558+600(GEN 11:11) = 2158
12.Arphaxad ..... 100(GEN 11:10) +1558=1658…...1658+438(GEN 11:13) = 2096
13.Salah ............…35(GEN 11:12) +1658=1693…..1693+433(GEN 11:15) = 2126
14.Eber ..............…30(GEN 11:14) +1693=1723…..1723+464(GEN 11:17) = 2187
15.Peleg ............….34(GEN 11:16) +1723=1757… .1757+239(GEN 11:19) =1966
16Reu ................….30(GEN 11:18) +1757=1787…..1787+239(GEN 11:21) = 2026
17.Serug ............…32(GEN11:20) +1787=1819……1819+230(GEN 11:23) = 2049
18.Nahor ............…30(GEN 11:22) +1819=1849…..1849+148(GEN 11:25) = 1997
19.Terah ....…….….29(GEN 11:24) +1849=1878…...1878+205(GEN 11:32) = 2083
20.Abram ........130(GEN 11:26 *4) +1878=2008…...2008+175(GEN 25:7) = 2183

(Notice that all of the above were born before Noah’s son died. All were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the flood from Shem, son of Noah, himself.)

21.Isaac…………100(GEN 21:5) +2008=2108…..2108+180(GEN 35:28) =2288
22.Jacob…………60(GEN 25:26) +2108=2168….2168+147(GEN 47:28) =2315



NOTES

*1
Dispute of whether Enoch actually died or was translated to heaven (GEN 5:23-24).
Either way, he was gone from the earth.


* 2
YEAR OF FLOOD - 1656

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
(Noah was born in the year 1056. 600 years after his birth was the flood. 1056 + 600 = 1656.)
Gen.11: 10. These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
Arphazad was born in the year 1658. His birth was 2 years after the flood.
1658 – 2 = 1656.)



*3
GEN 5:32 says Noah was 500 when he begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
GEN 10:21 says Japheth was the elder.
GEN 9:24 says that Ham was the youngest.
So we can conclude that they were not triplets all born at the same time.
Added to GEN 11:10 which says that Shem was 100 when he begot his son Arphaxad, and this was 2 years AFTER the flood, we can conclude that Noah had the elder Japheth at age 500, then Shem at age 502, then Ham after that.


*4
Gen 11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Terah had first son when he was 70 years old. (Though Abram is listed first, he was not the first son of Terah)

Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.​

Abram was not his first son.
He was 130 years old when he had Abram.
Abram stayed in Haran until his father died at age 205.

Actc 7​

3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall show thee.​

4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans, and dwelt in Haran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.​

How old was Abram when he left? 75 years old.
205 – 75 = 130

Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.​

 

[CrowCross]

Good questions, and you have made a good effort to think through them.

Another example of hearing about God is from word of mouth, story telling from generation to generation.

I am going to post a chart that was created years ago by me and a few other members of another site showing the lifespans of people from Adam to Jacob to show how several generations were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the history of God from someone who lived it.

Chart posted in next post.

It seems as if things were pretty skewed by the time of the Tower of Babel.

 

[David1701]

The Destiny Of The Unreached
[Any hope for them?]​

If you would give me your attention, consider with me the billions and billions of people who have lived and died who were never exposed to either audible or written messages from Heaven. Is there no hope for any of them? Let’s take this fascinating journey and parley about what Heaven says about it—if anything. —Buff.​

Hope For The Unexposed​

A few decades ago, someone tried to estimate the number of people who have lived and died upon planet Earth since the genesis of the human family. He supposed that if the earth were one great graveyard, the graves would be twenty deep—all over the mountains, the deserts, the rivers, and the oceans.

If his supposition is anywhere correct, just think of the billions and billions of people who have walked and died upon planet Earth, yet only a small percentage of them, perhaps less than 10 percent, have been exposed to what we call “special revelation” in the form of audible or written messages of a celestial kind. Is God unmindful of these billions of people? Has He not been aware of their plight and lack of opportunities? Has He not “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live”? And has He not done this “so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him”? After all, “He is not far from each one of us” [Acts 17:24-27].

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation. Consequently, there is no excuse for those who build and worship false gods and idols—whether symbols of persons, animals, or things. In addressing the fate of certain pagans, the apostle Paul accused them of “worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator,” and said they are “without excuse” [Rom. 1:18-25].
​

The Receptive Heart​

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

But why take the Good News about Jesus to him, if he is already safe in the arms of God? I answer by asking, Why cultivate a field of corn if it can be harvested without cultivation? To make it a better field of corn! We take the saving message to the honest unregenerate because we are thus commissioned, and because the “elected” ones need to hear and be spiritually cultivated—thereby producing a better harvest.

It is God’s intention, through the Good News, to not only save the unregenerate from their fallen nature, but that those who are righteous like Cornelius might be conformed to the image of His Son [2 Cor. 3:18]. This is why we take the saving message to the unregenerate. Those who are not seeking light will not accept it. For them, the sun has already set. But those who are seeking more light will grasp it.
​

The Mentally Competent​

Every mentally competent person who has ever lived has been able to find God, for “he has set eternity in the hearts of men” [Eccles. 3:11]. All men, everywhere and in every age, have been divinely infused with an awareness of an intelligent Creator and of life after physical death. On that principle, I must conclude there have been many “unexposed” persons who were receptive to the “revelation of creation.” And those who sought God’s face, as limited as it may have been, and who “by persistence in doing good sought glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7].

Jesus touched upon this kind of situation when He taught there is no guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths. The self-righteous Pharisees were chiding Him in their usual way. Following the healing of a blind man, He said He had come into the world that those who do not see may see, and that others who see may become blind. The Pharisees asked Him, “Are we blind, too” [of certain truths]? Jesus answered, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” [John 9:35-41].

We cannot pass this premise by without giving it our solemn attention. If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account. In a related passage, Jesus announces, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin” [John 15:22]
​

<><><>
​

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

There is only one way of salvation - through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If anyone preaches any other way of salvation, let him be accursed.

 

[fastfredy0]

There is only one way of salvation - through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If anyone preaches any other way of salvation, let him be accursed.

Agreed. Minor caveat: I don't think did is true for time period before Christ's death. I don't have a solid answer for the content of saving faith before that time.

Aside: the evidence to validate the 'age of accountability' theory is weak

• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.

 

[Mr GLee]

We cannot know Christ through the natural things of this world . That's the foundation of the religion of the Paganism .Out of sight out of mind

No invisible God

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Those who hear the law and do not keep it. . perish . Those who never heard one word of the Bible will also perish without hearing one word .The letter of the law is the instrument of life and death, Yoked with him the burdens can be lighter

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

[fastfredy0]

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation.

What is the process where by a North American Indian born in 1249 was able to reach out to God and attain salvation? There are many verses indicating Christ is necessary for salvation (see previous post).

Assuming there is a process for the N.A. Indian, is this process more efficient that faith in Christ? What happens to such an individual who is supposedly saved by this process you ascribe to; what happens if he learns of and rejects Christ? Is he still saved? How does this process handle verses like "no one seeks God"?

very mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face.

The bible says "no one seeks God" so it seems to me no one reaches out to God to be saved so even if there is a process whereby a person can be saved without knowing Christ no one takes advantage of it.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

I would offer.

I think he can reach out to the mentally incompetent as easy as one that is competent . It begins in the womb requiring rebirth . We have his mind. The face to face knowledge as it is written

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Are you applying available light to the temporal seen, natural unconverted dying mankind ? If so that would seem to be hiding the true light of the gospel . He who does not have Mercy does not know God . God's essence is mercy Just as God is Light .

Two kinds of mercy Like usual Satan would make it all one in the same to tike away the spiritual unseen significance .

#1 mercy seasoned with grace salvation . #2 no grace. The kind of the mercy just as if they were never born the time of sufferings over .

Gods Mercy mixed with His saving Grace The tool for amending redeeming

James 2:12-14Young's Literal Translation12 so speak ye and so do, as about by a law of liberty (Grace) to be judged, for the judgment without kindness (Grace) to him not having done kindness,(Grace) and exult doth kindness(Grace) over judgment. What is the profit, my brethren, if faith,(The power to raise) any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

One source of light. Mercy mixed with grace . Called the just and the justifier

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The law. .Sola scriptura the food of the gospel law. The food the disciples knew not of .Power from the father to both understand and empower the Son of man to do it to the fathers good pleasure

Our daily bread or hidden manna

I would offer study to improve how to walk or understand by faith the unseen eternal things of Christ

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Mr. Glee, you noted above, "
FATE OF THE UNREACHED - New reply to watched thread

"I would offer. I think he [God] can reach out to the mentally incompetent as easy as one that is competent."--Mr. Glee. Surely you're not serious! I worked in Psychiatric Institutions for 34 years, during which time many of my patients were so mentally incompetent they were not capable of understanding the message of salvation and responding to it. "Been there, know that." ​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

What is the process where by a North American Indian born in 1249 was able to reach out to God and attain salvation? There are many verses indicating Christ is necessary for salvation (see previous post).

Assuming there is a process for the N.A. Indian, is this process more efficient that faith in Christ? What happens to such an individual who is supposedly saved by this process you ascribe to; what happens if he learns of and rejects Christ? Is he still saved? How does this process handle verses like "no one seeks God"?



The bible says "no one seeks God" so it seems to me no one reaches out to God to be saved so even if there is a process whereby a person can be saved without knowing Christ no one takes advantage of it.

I strongly recommend you turn to the 1st chapter of Romans. Paul says the pagans "clearly perceived...the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" [see verses 20 and 21]. In other words, they KNEW God through the revelation of creation. But they still rejected Him! Their rejection could have been an acceptance, but they refused.

 

[fastfredy0]

I strongly recommend you turn to the 1st chapter of Romans. Paul says the pagans "clearly perceived...the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" [see verses 20 and 21]. In other words, they KNEW God through the revelation of creation.

Agreed... Romans 1 says the people via nature (general revelation) perceive God and are without excuse. But we are talking about salvation and Romans 1 does not mention the topic of salvation.
The topic at hand is the salvation of those who never heard of Christ (I am assuming the time period after Christ's death). Scripture in many places says we are saved by faith and a component of faith is knowledge and scripture says knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation. I listed 4 verses in post #8 to back me up. I can list more.
I asked you what one must do to be saved if one never heard of Christ. I repeat the question, please site verse(s) to back up your contention.
Thx

 

[David1701]

Agreed. Minor caveat: I don't think did is true for time period before Christ's death. I don't have a solid answer for the content of saving faith before that time.

Aside: the evidence to validate the 'age of accountability' theory is weak

• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.

Before Christ came, salvation was through faith in God and in the Messiah to come. The gospel was first preached in Gen. 3:15 and there has never been any other way of salvation.

God can give faith to people of any age or mental ability (e.g. he gave faith to John the Immerser, in his mother's womb!).

 

[David1701]

I strongly recommend you turn to the 1st chapter of Romans. Paul says the pagans "clearly perceived...the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" [see verses 20 and 21]. In other words, they KNEW God through the revelation of creation. But they still rejected Him! Their rejection could have been an acceptance, but they refused.

No-one knows God through creation alone. Everyone should acknowledge the existence of God through creation (i.e. know about him), but that only increases one's accountability and saves no-one.

The natural (i.e. not born again) person does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, nor can he know them. This is why a person MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Mr GLee]

Mr. Glee, you noted above, "
FATE OF THE UNREACHED - New reply to watched thread

​ ​ "I would offer. I think he [God] can reach out to the mentally incompetent as easy as one that is competent."--Mr. Glee. Surely you're not serious! I worked in Psychiatric Institutions for 34 years, during which time many of my patients were so mentally incompetent they were not capable of understanding the message of salvation and responding to it. "Been there, know that." ​

Hi thanks

Its easy for Christ . . . . .his ways "Let there be" not ours "good for nothing ".

Christ the head Psychiatrist (mind doctor) . "let there be" and "there was" a good understanding where none previously was given it was "God alone good". The one Spirit of "Let there be" truth .

I would think he recognizes schizophrenia the splitting of the mind bipolarizing between the reality (depressing) and the wondering imaginations ;Highs and lows.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

John14 it informs He is not only our teacher, guide and comforter but it is he who brings to our mind the the previous things he has taught us. without him we can do nothing .

He can use a Ass to represent the unredeemed to bring the gospel.

Eternal God is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind .He has no needs but satisfies all . Let there be and "it was very good" the mystery of his will that he makes known

An example of a Christ's power as the head Psychiatrist.

Mark 5:15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, (Satan, father of lies) sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luke 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

He proved it in Mathew 4 with Jesus the Son of man .Forty days no food. The father of lies anti -phycologist gave him a false lying vision .Then Christ the head Psychiatrist gave words to his apostle Jesus .as it is written again as it is written and again . Three times struck him out. He never saw it coming

Nothing against Phycologist once called Alienist. Nothing wrong with a little help .

 

[fastfredy0]

Before Christ came, salvation was through faith in God and in the Messiah to come.

That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?

he gave faith to John the Immerser, in his mother's womb!

I know John made a movement in his mother's womb but do you have a verse saying God gave him, a fetus at the time, faith?

 

[Mr GLee]

That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?


I know John made a movement in his mother's womb but do you have a verse saying God gave him, a fetus at the time, faith?

I would offer more rather than "in" towards Messiah . . ."of" (belonging to Messiah ) The faith (as power) according to Christ labor of love the Messiah ." that work of creating new creatures by Christ is necessary .

We cannot offer our powerless dying faith towards him unless he first gives us the power (coming from) his faith or labor to do so .

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

The word faith through out speaks of Christ that works with us in us to both will and do to the good pleasure of his will

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The word faith throughout the bible (231 times) speaks of the power of God working is in every place except one ( No faith unbelievers ) Each time could be highlighted in Red .

Different kind of what is called the red letter edition. That one was to confusing . The words of Jesus Christ in that way would be all red. There is not one word that was not from God . God moved holy men to record his thoughts that work in us . . our Emanuel

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Agreed... Romans 1 says the people via nature (general revelation) perceive God and are without excuse. But we are talking about salvation and Romans 1 does not mention the topic of salvation.
The topic at hand is the salvation of those who never heard of Christ (I am assuming the time period after Christ's death). Scripture in many places says we are saved by faith and a component of faith is knowledge and scripture says knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation. I listed 4 verses in post #8 to back me up. I can list more.
I asked you what one must do to be saved if one never heard of Christ. I repeat the question, please site verse(s) to back up your contention.
Thx

Regardless of whether or not the term "salvation" is employed in Romans 1, the truth is that those pagans could have been saved eternally by acknowledging that a Higher Power is there and that He is the Author of the universe. In other words, their only revelation from Heaven was the revelation of creation. By accepting that fact, they could have been eternally redeemed. As I noted earlier:

"If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He [Jesus] seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts [John 15:22]. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account."

To put it another way, he will be saved although he is not a "member of your church" and has not adopted your doctrinal status!​

 

[fastfredy0]

Regardless of whether or not the term "salvation" is employed in Romans 1,

Well, you used Romans 1 to substantiate your claim that those who never heard of Christ can be saved. Logic dictates if one does so the scripture quoted MUST BE relevant.

their only revelation from Heaven was the revelation of creation. By accepting that fact, they could have been eternally redeemed. As I noted earlier

Oh, so if someone is a murderer and liar or whatever, they can be saved by the revelation of creation ... heck, lots of people believe a god created everything. So, those in Islam and Buddhists are be saved by their believing the doctrine of the revelation of creation. So, a missionary goes to someone that believes in the doctrine of the revelation of creation ... would it be prudent to not tell him of Christ for if he does not believe in Christ he might lose his salvation ... is one saved by believing in either 1) the doctrine of the revelation of creation OR 2) Christ? If one believe in Christ but not the revelation of creation is he saved or condemned?

I'd like to be pointed to a Christian website that speaks of the salvation of men who believe in the revelation of creation.

Question: Romans 1 doesn't mention salvation and yet you believe one can be saved by believing the contents of Romans 1. What other places in scripture mentions things other than Christ, that if believe can save a person?

When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account."

The following verses contradict your contention:

• Romans 8:7 the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot, 8 those who are in the flesh cannot please God
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually [the Holy Spirit] discerned.
• Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

He [Jesus] seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts [John 15:22].

I agree that the ignorant of Christ will be penalized less.