Eternal Justification?

[makesends]

Paul was being used as an analogy for GOD in the example, so if GOD does not keep his word, then our unforgiven sins are the least of our problems ... we are "sinners in the hands of an evil god" [thus have MUCH bigger problems than sin].

@Arial's statement was ridiculous, no doubt, and she would agree with you about whether God keeps his word. In fact, I have argued that another poster's "thought question" (as he called it) was useless for proving his thesis, because there is no "what-if God does not keep his promise".

I said it was a good way to look at it—not "It is a good question". She took it to an extreme so that the opposition could see where their logic leads.

 

[brightfame52]

What do you mean "This want about Paul as well?" That makes no sense.

See post 205 it should have read " it was about Paul as well"

[MOD WARNING: This post violates rule 4.4. However, it is being left in place because it's a mere clarification. Any further posts must comply with rule 4.4.]
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[Arial]

See post 205 it should have read " it was about Paul as well"

The scripture was about Paul, but my question was not, and you know that. However, if you answered my question with obvious answer: "No, Paul's promise to pay the debt did not actually pay the debt." then you would be showing proof that your assertion that Christ agreeing to be surety of a better covenant does not actually do the work of being the surety.

So that is settled. No more needs to be said about it and any more that is said about it before you do what is required by the rules as stated in Post #239, will be deleted.

 

[JesusFan]

If they incurred the debt, then they owed the debt, didn't they? If they never owed the debt, then they never incurred the debt. If they were already justified before they were born, they were always justified even without being in union with Christ.

Yet the NT constantly used the phrase "in Christ". What does that mean? How do we become united to Christ? Why must we be united to Christ.

You are affirming real debt-incurrence while denying real liability. That destroys all meaning of debt entirely and it also makes union with Christ and faith unnecessary. Changing the definition of faith to "awareness of our position" as you do, does not make the problem of the necessity of union with Christ disappear. Awareness of our position as not guilty is internal in us and creates no union with Christ. Being guilty and not guilty at the same time is illogical. Your position has union with Christ already existing before we were even born and before the cross---faith or no faith. Or as your definition of faith would have it---awareness or no awareness.

And I suggest you be more careful of your wording. Christ never had a debt to pay. He paid our debt.

So, the question you must answer now is: What does union with Christ actually accomplish in your system?

When exactly were the saved then in actual union with Christ in that system, were they born in such?

 

[Arial]

When exactly were the saved then in actual union with Christ in that system, were they born in such?

The saved are always in union with Christ. Those who will be saved are not any more than are those who will not be saved. Union with Christ comes through faith which occurs according to God's purpose and timing, in time. Not in the eternal decree.

 

[John Bauer]

The saved are always in union with Christ. Those who will be saved are not, any more than are those who will not be saved. Union with Christ comes through faith which occurs according to God's purpose and timing, in time. Not in the eternal decree.

Be aware of a distinction that Arial is making, here. A person is saved only in union with Christ. So, she noticed your term—“the saved”—and answered accordingly. Those who are “the saved” are in union with Christ; if they are not in union with Christ, they are not saved.

“Those who will be saved” are, by definition, not yet saved. This, then, refers to the elect who have not yet been called, regenerated, and converted, those whom the Spirit has not yet united with Christ. This differs from the reprobate, who are not saved and “will not be saved.”

Again, a person is saved only in union with Christ—and “union with Christ comes through faith, which occurs according to God’s purpose and timing—in time. [Union with Christ does not occur] in the eternal decree.”

 

[JesusFan]

The saved are always in union with Christ. Those who will be saved are not any more than are those who will not be saved. Union with Christ comes through faith which occurs according to God's purpose and timing, in time. Not in the eternal decree.

So there is no eternal justification then i the sense one does not need to get "saved" as are born in a saved state already? Asking this, as have read and spoken to Hyper Cals who stated that even if they never received Jesus in their lifetime, just meant would still go to heaven, just not able to enjoy the fruit of it while upon this earth, and they also tied this into no need for Missions, as God either gets to heaven, or 'saved" while on earth and also gets them to heaven?

 

[JesusFan]

Be aware of a distinction that Arial is making, here. A person is saved only in union with Christ. So, she noticed your term—“the saved”—and answered accordingly. Those who are “the saved” are in union with Christ; if they are not in union with Christ, they are not saved.

“Those who will be saved” are, by definition, not yet saved. This, then, refers to the elect who have not yet been called, regenerated, and converted, those whom the Spirit has not yet united with Christ. This differs from the reprobate, who are not saved and “will not be saved.”

Again, a person is saved only in union with Christ—and “union with Christ comes through faith, which occurs according to God’s purpose and timing—in time. [Union with Christ does not occur] in the eternal decree.”

So there is no eternal justification then i the sense one does not need to get "saved" as are born in a saved state already? Asking this, as have read and spoken to Hyper Cals who stated that even if they never received Jesus in their lifetime, just meant would still go to heaven, just not able to enjoy the fruit of it while upon this earth, and they also tied this into no need for Missions, as God either gets to heaven, or 'saved" while on earth and also gets them to heaven?

 

[makesends]

So there is no eternal justification then i the sense one does not need to get "saved" as are born in a saved state already? Asking this, as have read and spoken to Hyper Cals who stated that even if they never received Jesus in their lifetime, just meant would still go to heaven, just not able to enjoy the fruit of it while upon this earth, and they also tied this into no need for Missions, as God either gets to heaven, or 'saved" while on earth and also gets them to heaven?

Wow! All sorts of HyperCals, then! Great goodness!

I've been called a HyperCal but I hardly represent any of them, when I hear the descriptions. But this is way out there! They must not read the Bible, but just love the sound of their logic.

 

[Arial]

So there is no eternal justification then i the sense one does not need to get "saved" as are born in a saved state already?

That is correct. Justification is in time, not in the eternal. The provision (what is necessary to provide justification for an individual) Jesus purposely doing (according to what is purposed) is in the eternal Covenant of Redemption, "before the foundation of the world". It takes place in time (historical). It's effectiveness for the elect is through union with Christ. The union is through faith in his person and work for salvation. God predestines those who he elects to come to Christ and leads them to him through regeneration, giving them faith. That regeneration, I believe is the "opening of deaf ears" and "blind eyes". They see (understand) and believe.

 

[JesusFan]

Wow! All sorts of HyperCals, then! Great goodness!

I've been called a HyperCal but I hardly represent any of them, when I hear the descriptions. But this is way out there! They must not read the Bible, but just love the sound of their logic.

They hold to those who are to get and be saved are already in that state, but to affirm it in this life now brings to them the spiritual blessings that they did not know already had in Christ

 

[JesusFan]

That is correct. Justification is in time, not in the eternal. The provision (what is necessary to provide justification for an individual) Jesus purposely doing (according to what is purposed) is in the eternal Covenant of Redemption, "before the foundation of the world". It takes place in time (historical). It's effectiveness for the elect is through union with Christ. The union is through faith in his person and work for salvation. God predestines those who he elects to come to Christ and leads them to him through regeneration, giving them faith. That regeneration, I believe is the "opening of deaf ears" and "blind eyes". They see (understand) and believe.

So would be regeneration unto salvation then?

 

[JesusFan]

Wow! All sorts of HyperCals, then! Great goodness!

I've been called a HyperCal but I hardly represent any of them, when I hear the descriptions. But this is way out there! They must not read the Bible, but just love the sound of their logic.

Hyper Cals would not see any need for missions or evangelism, as the redeemed are already saved out by the grace and election of God period , as one time visited a church holding to that theology, and asked Pastor why no missions, and he replied God will save all of His own

 

[makesends]

Hyper Cals would not see any need for missions or evangelism, as the redeemed are already saved out by the grace and election of God period , as one time visited a church holding to that theology, and asked Pastor why no missions, and he replied God will save all of His own

Y'know, this makes me think. These people's mentality is much like the Arminians/Pelagians who think Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion means there is no need to seek God or obey or anything else-- "Where's the motivation?", they say.

Like those who insist on self-determinism, they forget that while what God will do is sure, he uses means to accomplish it, and so, they have to re-interpret Scripture, or ignore the parts that they don't need.

 

[Arial]

So would be regeneration unto salvation then?

Yes. By grace and through faith.

 

[Arial]

Y'know, this makes me think. These people's mentality is much like the Arminians/Pelagians who think Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion means there is no need to seek God or obey or anything else-- "Where's the motivation?", they say.

Like those who insist on self-determinism, they forget that while what God will do is sure, he uses means to accomplish it, and so, they have to re-interpret Scripture, or ignore the parts that they don't need.

The attitude really amounts to "Why evangelize if I don't get the credit." It exposes hidden motives. It ignores that we are told to preach the gospel and ignores the passage on "how will they believe what they have not heard---".

 

[makesends]

The attitude really amounts to "Why evangelize if I don't get the credit." It exposes hidden motives. It ignores that we are told to preach the gospel and ignores the passage on "how will they believe what they have not heard---".

Can you explain that first part a bit? I can see that being the hidden-even-from-them motive for some, but not so sure about all.

I agree completely with what you wrote next, that it ignores what we are told to do, and ignores the logic of "how will they believe what they have not heard---"

 

[Arial]

Can you explain that first part a bit? I can see that being the hidden-even-from-them motive for some, but not so sure about all.

I agree completely with what you wrote next, that it ignores what we are told to do, and ignores the logic of "how will they believe what they have not heard---"

I did not intend to imply "all".

 

[JesusFan]

Y'know, this makes me think. These people's mentality is much like the Arminians/Pelagians who think Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion means there is no need to seek God or obey or anything else-- "Where's the motivation?", they say.

Like those who insist on self-determinism, they forget that while what God will do is sure, he uses means to accomplish it, and so, they have to re-interpret Scripture, or ignore the parts that they don't need.

they ignore that God Himself command us to go forth to all nations and peoples with the Gospel message, as while God knows his own elect, we do not, and he ordained that the teaching of the gospel and the Person of the Holy Spirit will be saving out his own people.