Double Propitiation

[Carbon]

That's what a lot of Calvinists believe.

Okay. I think that is because scripture teaches it.

I would differ because of Covenant Theology.

I am a proponent of covenant theology. Are you saying you're not?

Adam Failed to keep the Old Covenant, Jesus succeeded in Keeping the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant has Universal Consequences. All died in Adam; that's a Universal Consequence. Christ Kept the Covenant of Works; and it has Universal Consequences, as seen from from Adam's broken Covenant of Works. This is how we can accept that Jesus is the Propitiation of the World; his Covenant reached All, like Adam's reached All...

Hhhmmm, I'm not seeing that. I believe Jesus ' propitiatory sacrifice appeased God's anger. This is why scripture teaches Christ is the propitiation not only for the elect's sins but of the whole world. God has mercy on not only the elect but the reprobate as well. Because of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice.

 

[Bruiser]

Okay. I think that is because scripture teaches it.

I am a proponent of covenant theology. Are you saying you're not?

Hhhmmm, I'm not seeing that. I believe Jesus ' propitiatory sacrifice appeased God's anger. This is why scripture teaches Christ is the propitiation not only for the elect's sins but of the whole world. God has mercy on not only the elect but the reprobate as well. Because of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice.

Christ's Propitiation did that for sure; for those who are Justified through Faith. Remember, Propitiation without Expiation is no Propitiation at all; it's a Propitiation in name only. I think Calvinists, Arminians, Fullerites, Provisionists; can All agree...

Propitiation buys Federal Headship. Christ bought even the Heretic. But this Purchase doesn't have anything to do with God's Wrath...

Jesus Kept two Covenants of Works. One with Universal Consequences and one with Limited Consequences...

 

[Carbon]

Christ's Propitiation did that for sure; for those who are Justified through Faith. Remember, Propitiation without Expiation is no Propitiation at all; it's a Propitiation in name only. I think Calvinists, Arminians, Fullerites, Provisionists; can All agree...

Propitiation buys Federal Headship. Christ bought even the Heretic. But this Purchase doesn't have anything to do with God's Wrath...

 

[Carbon]

Christ's Propitiation did that for sure; for those who are Justified through Faith. Remember, Propitiation without Expiation is no Propitiation at all; it's a Propitiation in name only. I think Calvinists, Arminians, Fullerites, Provisionists; can All agree...

Propitiation buys Federal Headship. Christ bought even the Heretic. But this Purchase doesn't have anything to do with God's Wrath...

Jesus Kept two Covenants of Works. One with Universal Consequences and one with Limited Consequences...

But keep in mind, Reformed Theology does not recognize a double propitiation.

 

[Bruiser]

But keep in mind, Reformed Theology does not recognize a double propitiation.

Yeah, it's more in line with Fullerism...

 

[Reformedguy]

Yeah, it's more in line with Fullerism...

Bruiser, did you use to post on CARM? Your nic sounds familiar.

 

[Bruiser]

Bruiser, did you use to post on CARM? Your nic sounds familiar.

That's me. I'm hanging out here now...

 

[Reformedguy]

That's me. I'm hanging out here now...

Wow man, good to see you again. Its been awhile. You picked the right Forums. Its nice here.

 

[JesusFan]

Yeah, it's more in line with Fullerism...

Is that like Molinism?

 

[Bruiser]

Is that like Molinism?

Nah, it's Calvinism lite. When I first heard of it, Calvinists would call it a 4.5 or 4.75 Point Calvinism. Because of Limited Atonement. Primitive Baptists can't stand Fuller because they are Hyper Calvinists...

Andrew Fuller is their Foil...

 

[Carbon]

Is that like Molinism?

No it’s not Molinism. Brother @Bruiser will disagree but I mean this respectfully.
Fuller fell a good distance from Calvinism and if you look into his later theology it’s synergism. As far as I’m concerned he was never a true Calvinist and a Calvinist is a 5 pointer, a 4 or 4.5 is not a Calvinist.

He taught a weird type of atonement which is why some are fooled into believing a 4 pointer is a Calvinist also. He taught Christ died for his elect mainly but can still save the rest of the world if they would only believe.

 

[Carbon]

No it’s not Molinism. Brother @Bruiser will disagree but I mean this respectfully.
Fuller fell a good distance from Calvinism and if you look into his later theology it’s synergism. As far as I’m concerned he was never a true Calvinist and a Calvinist is a 5 pointer, a 4 or 4.5 is not a Calvinist.

He taught a weird type of atonement which is why some are fooled into believing a 4 pointer is a Calvinist also. He taught Christ died for his elect mainly but can still save the rest of the world if they would only believe.

He can’t have it both ways. So he tried to develop and prove a middle ground. But he proved to be a synergist. Or if you will, an Arminian

 

[Bruiser]

He can’t have it both ways. So he tried to develop and prove a middle ground. But he proved to be a synergist. Or if you will, an Arminian

Perhaps a good Thread would be; Exactly what is Monergistic?

Unconditional Election is strictly Monergistic...

Perhaps everything else is Synergistic? Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic; and he's a Monergist. Thinking that way, the Perseverance of the Saints is also Synergistic; Persevere or else. Justification through Faith Alone is Synergistic; Belief in the Truth. Sproul said Jesus died for Believers. The Spiritual Gift of Teaching is Synergistic. Etc ..

I know, I know; all that can be debated...

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps a good Thread would be; Exactly what is Monergistic?

Perhaps.

Unconditional Election is strictly Monergistic...

Yes, that would make sense.

Perhaps everything else is Synergistic?

No, I seriously doubt it. All of salvation is of the Lord.

Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic; and he's a Monergist.

I think the wayhe explain it it sounded so. But not all Calvinists agree on everything. If Sproul thought Sanctification to be synergistic, I believe he was wrong, and I disagree with him obviously, as do many other Calvinists.

Thinking that way, the Perseverance of the Saints is also Synergistic;

Nope. Scripture proves we are held by God's power, not our own. Monergistic all the way.

Persevere or else.

In accordance with Arminianism, perhaps.

Justification through Faith Alone is Synergistic;

I disagree. But would you explain why you would believe such?

Belief in the Truth. Sproul said Jesus died for Believers.

Well all those hedied for believe, right?

The Spiritual Gift of Teaching is Synergistic. Etc ..

I was thinking of salvation. Teaching isn't a part of salvation.

I know, I know; all that can be debated...

Anything can be.

There are some really good subjects here to debate.


I agree with the Lutheran Gerhard Forde, : "Sanctification is the art of getting used to justification."

 

[Bruiser]

I was thinking of salvation. Teaching isn't a part of salvation.

Well this is the Inch you give, for me to take a Mile...

The Gift of Teaching is a Spiritual Gift. I presume from your response, you agree it MAY be Synergistic. Why would that be less Synergistic than the Perseverance of the Saints?

 

[Bruiser]

Let's make a Thread

There are some good subjects here to debate

 

[Carbon]

Let's make a Thread

Sure, choose whichever one you would like to start with.

 

[Bruiser]

Sure, choose whichever one you would like to start with.

I started one...

I hope I'm not the Belle of the Ball, and expected to dance with all the gentlemen Posters...

 

[Bruiser]

I started one...

I hope I'm not the Belle of the Ball, and expected to dance with all the gentlemen Posters...

https://christcentered.community.fo...onergistic-and-which-are-not.3658/post-137070

 

[JesusFan]

No it’s not Molinism. Brother @Bruiser will disagree but I mean this respectfully.
Fuller fell a good distance from Calvinism and if you look into his later theology it’s synergism. As far as I’m concerned he was never a true Calvinist and a Calvinist is a 5 pointer, a 4 or 4.5 is not a Calvinist.

He taught a weird type of atonement which is why some are fooled into believing a 4 pointer is a Calvinist also. He taught Christ died for his elect mainly but can still save the rest of the world if they would only believe.

Agreed this all can get confusing, as many so called Calvinists are "only" 4 pointers of DOG, disagree on limited atonement, while some like Norman Geisler thought 5 point DOG were all hyper Calvinist