Discussion

[ReverendRV]

Udo said, "If God knows a person is born morally unable to believe in Christ, is it rational to condemn them because they have not believed?"

ReverendRV said, "is rational Udo, because Unbelief breaks the First Commandment that thou Shalt have God. All people are without an Excuse; right? Any Excuse we can produce, is a False Pretense Fallacy. The Commandment that you shall have God came first, before Moral Inability came..."

Udo said, "But it isn't rational, Charles! If a person hasn't been given the ability to believe, then how is it rational to expect that they should have believed and then condemn them precisely because they haven't believed?"

ReverendRV said, "Becuse it is the Command of God that we Believe Udo. Look at it like this; you are presenting an Irresistible Force and I'm presenting an Unmovable Object. In your Mind, your Irresistible Force can move my Unmovable Object. But that's not the way this Conundrum works. No matter how powerful your Premise is, mine is just as powerful...

But since we are Christians, mine is more powerful, because it is the First Commandment; it's without a doubt Biblical. Your Premise is not a Verse of Scripture; but is an Excuse, which another Verse says cannot apply. It is a False Premise..."

 

[ReverendRV]

It is what it is ~ by ReverendRV * June 4

Matthew 24:24 KJV; For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Have you heard the saying “It is what it is”? It’s the first Law of Logic known as ‘the Law of Identity’; and these Laws are Transcendent. ~ One of my favorite shows is a popular magic, hidden camera, TV show. I like to watch it with my daughter, and I tell her that the Magician is trying to get the people to believe a Lie; by 'controlling their thinking'. The reason the Show works is because of the Laws of Logic; which are True to us all. The Magician abuses the Law of Identity by showing us a Contradiction, which results after he magically swaps something else for the first thing; but it’s presented to us as if it were the first thing. This is when the Law of Identity begins to wrestle with ‘the Law of Non Contradiction’; and then people say, "Wait; how did you do that??". The reason Prestidigitation works so well is because the Magician gets inside your head; and all of the sudden “It is what it is” and “it ain't what it is” both seem true at the same time. Now the Law of Identity and the Law of Non Contradiction are butting heads, similar to how an Irresistible Force versus an Unmovable Object would butt heads if they ever met; a clash of Titans…

Have you ever had another god other than the Logical and Transcendent God of the Bible? These days there are less Christians than there used to be. Have you ever said something like, “To me, god would never lead anyone into Temptation”. Then you are an Idolater; the Bible says that the Holy Ghost led Jesus into the desert to be tempted. Have you ever taken the name of the Lord in Vain? That’s called Blasphemy, and these are only three of the Ten Commandments. If God judged you by his Standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Hating God will do you no good; Jesus said that Hatred is Murder and he’s your Judge. ~ There is Proof the Bible is true; so do a Study…

But God so Loved the world he gave us his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ never Sinned and was our second chance when he became the Second Adam; a new Representative. He became the sacrifice for Sin by spilling his blood and dying on the Cross, and he becomes the Son of Righteousness by rising from the grave like the morning Sun. We’re Saved and Forgiven by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and look for a good Church that’s like the woman described in Proverbs 31. ~ Miracles may have felt as confusing to people at the time of Christ, as magic feels to us in our day and time; but a Magician’s effect won’t grow limbs on people. That's when the Third Law of Logic, ‘the Excluded Middle’, makes a case for Christ…

John 10:37-38 NLT; Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work. But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."

 

[fastfredy0]

Udo said, "If God knows a person is born morally unable to believe in Christ, is it rational to condemn them because they have not believed?"


It is both rational and irrational, depending upon your frame of reference.

Definition: Rational = based on or in accordance with reason or logic
From God's point of view (not that I am qualified to speak for Him), He is the potter and we are the clay. We are His creation to do with as He pleases. Responsibility is determined by a ruler, not by we a person is capable of achieving. God being holy and all wise infers everything He does is the best way and therefore rational.

From Man's point of view (not that man's point of view is sovereign), man tends to think that he should be held responsible for only what he can achieve. Obeying God is impossible and thus man should not be held responsible as that seems irrational. Consider, we tend to not let people with an IQ of 70 become doctors and it is rational to do so for the better good to deny dummies the opportunity to be doctors.

Since God is the only entity that is intrinsically good, it seems we should go with God's point of view.

 

[ReverendRV]

Udo said, "If God knows a person is born morally unable to believe in Christ, is it rational to condemn them because they have not believed?"


It is both rational and irrational, depending upon your frame of reference.

Definition: Rational = based on or in accordance with reason or logic
From God's point of view (not that I am qualified to speak for Him), He is the potter and we are the clay. We are His creation to do with as He pleases. Responsibility is determined by a ruler, not by we a person is capable of achieving. God being holy and all wise infers everything He does is the best way and therefore rational.

From Man's point of view (not that man's point of view is sovereign), man tends to think that he should be held responsible for only what he can achieve. Obeying God is impossible and thus man should not be held responsible as that seems irrational. Consider, we tend to not let people with an IQ of 70 become doctors and it is rational to do so for the better good to deny dummies the opportunity to be doctors.

Since God is the only entity that is intrinsically good, it seems we should go with God's point of view.

I totally agree...

Since Man is Fallen; in the end, it's Rational. As I pointed out, the Fallen perspective can only be a False Premise in comparison to God's Perspective...

Oh, how I would love Logic 101 being a required course in Publuc Schools. They wouldn't have to teach religion, just teach people how to think...


My desire isn't a denial of Calvinism. Whether a Debate or an Alter Call; it's still God's business to Circumcise Ears...

 

[makesends]

I totally agree...

Since Man is Fallen; in the end, it's Rational. As I pointed out, the Fallen perspective can only be a False Premise in comparison to God's Perspective...

Oh, how I would love Logic 101 being a required course in Publuc Schools. They wouldn't have to teach religion, just teach people how to think...


My desire isn't a denial of Calvinism. Whether a Debate or an Alter Call; it's still God's business to Circumcise Ears...

They'd have to teach it every year of high school, and required to pass it in all 8 or 9 years of high school, before continuing on to the next year of 9th grade! No, come to think of it, they should begin in grade 4.

 

[QVQ]

This discussion is a core issue
God exists at all times, instantaneously and simultaneously
What happens has already happened
This is logical because God is omniscient.
Possible and intent are temporal, as man only exists in one point in time
The question I keep asking is, can a person who is not chosen from the foundation of the world, ask God for God and receive that? Does man have agency to ask for God's agency?
Does everyone or anyone have the free will to ask God for God?

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[makesends]

This discussion is a core issue
God exists at all times, instantaneously and simultaneously
What happens has already happened
This is logical because God is omniscient.
Possible and intent are temporal, as man only exists in one point in time
The question I keep asking is, can a person who is not chosen from the foundation of the world, ask God for God and receive that? Does man have agency to ask for God's agency?
Does everyone or anyone have the free will to ask God for God?

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Yes! God speaks to us as temporal, and creatures at that! But that does not imply that his thinking is like ours.

"Lord, even before I speak a word, you know all about it." Ps 139:4