Did the fall initiate death and predation?

[makesends]

I am too deterministic for many what it's. To me it's just trying to understand what now is, and act accordingly if possible.

Amen THAT! You're singing my song! We do so because it IS so.

"We love him because he first loved us", does not say, "We love him because we are grateful that he loved us." It would be more to the point, to say, "We love him because he put the Spirit of God in us to do so." THAT is (among other things) how he loved us.

 

[makesends]

Yet consistently Scripture never once depicts death as a biological inevitably it depicts death as a judicial penalty for sin.

Adam was not immortal by nature (he depended on God and didn't have life in himself) but he was not subject to death until sin entered.

The possibly to live in eternal state of covenant obedience existed until the fall, and then death was the judicial punishment.

Spiritual, physical and covenantal death. "to the dust you will return", plus the exile from the garden = loses covenant favor and spiritual death (Adam hiding from God).

Physical death is nowhere shown as a simple biological reality but instead depicts death as judicial punishment for sin. Physical, spiritual and covenantal.

"And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment," sounds pretty much like a separate thing from judgement. But, I really don't know, concerning Adam. @John Bauer had a really good point, above. But we are agreed, that regardless, his life was not "in himself" in the same sense as God is alive, any more than he has free will in the same sense as God does.

 

[Arial]

I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?

The wages of sin is death. Humans are the only creation that can sin. Death came into creation for everything because God subjected it to futility.

 

[QVQ]

There has to be cause to make dead.
The natural causes of death are: design flaws (cancer, heart attack); disease (predation); accident, (damage from natural causes.)

I am considering @Hazelelponi Post #18 The possibly to live in eternal state of covenant obedience existed until the fall, and then death was the judicial punishment"
The Covenant relationship between God and Adam was Paradise, not Heaven as @makesends noted in Post #19

 

[John Bauer]

"We love him because he first loved us", does not say, "We love him because we are grateful that he loved us." It would be more to the point, to say, "We love him because he put the Spirit of God in us to do so." THAT is (among other things) how he loved us.

"And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us" (Romans 5:5).

 

[John Bauer]

I am considering Hazelelponi’s post 18: “The possibility to live in eternal state of covenant obedience existed until the fall, and then death was the judicial punishment.”

I would struggle to accept that position for myself because of that word, “possibility.” Living in an eternal state of covenant faithfulness was never possible because Christ was already the chosen spotless Lamb before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:19-20), given the eternal intratrinitarian pactum salutis. Eternal life was always going to be in Christ, never in Adam or ourselves.

I agree that death was the judicial punishment, primarily spiritual death which Adam and Eve experienced the very day they rebelled against God. I am wondering if physical death is simply incidental (“spiritually dead mortals will eventually die physically”), an entailment of losing immediate communion with God, being expelled from the garden, and denied access to the tree of life. What if physical death is not a punishment for sin, but is rather incidental to the punishment for sin? If physical death is a punishment for sin, then

• why do redeemed saints die physically when Christ bore the punishment for sin? Does God punish twice for the same sin, first the Substitute and then the sinner?
  
  ​
• why do animals die? They neither sin nor was Adam ever their federal head.

 

[QVQ]

I would struggle to accept that position for myself because of that word, “possibility.” Living in an eternal state of covenant faithfulness was never possible because Christ was already the chosen spotless Lamb before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:19-20), given the eternal intratrinitarian pactum salutis. Eternal life was always going to be in Christ, never in Adam or ourselves.

I agree that death was the judicial punishment, primarily spiritual death which Adam and Eve experienced the very day they rebelled against God. I am wondering if physical death is simply incidental (“spiritually dead mortals will eventually die physically”), an entailment of losing immediate communion with God, being expelled from the garden, and denied access to the tree of life. What if physical death is not a punishment for sin, but is rather incidental to the punishment for sin? If physical death is a punishment for sin, then

• why do redeemed saints die physically when Christ bore the punishment for sin? Does God punish twice for the same sin, first the Substitute and then the sinner?
• why do animals die? They neither sin nor was Adam ever their federal head.

The means of death are design flaws, predation (disease) accident
Was Adam flawed in Design? Did God allow other creatures to feast on him or a tree branch to fall on his head?
God could under the Covenant with Adam have taken Adam's life as God gave him life but how, when or whether is not stated.

Next question: Why do animals die?
In Paradise, under the Covenant with Adam, all the same conditions prevailed. Animals could possibly die but again, not by the means that were introduced after the fall.

Now, if only Adam were subject to the conditions of the covenant but the animals weren't, being the same before the fall and after, no change in animal's nature or death or in the conditions prevailing on earth
Then the only Judgement God decreed was a spiritual death to Adam who could already die physically and tossed Adam to the wolves outside the Gates of Eden.

After the Fall, there was a new earth and all, even animals are subject to the conditions thereof. After the Resurrection, there will be a new earth and all animals will be subject to the conditions thereof.

I don't understand the term "Federal Head." It isn't in the Bible or anywhere except modern politics.

 

[makesends]

I would struggle to accept that position for myself because of that word, “possibility.” Living in an eternal state of covenant faithfulness was never possible because Christ was already the chosen spotless Lamb before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:19-20), given the eternal intratrinitarian pactum salutis. Eternal life was always going to be in Christ, never in Adam or ourselves.

I agree. Maybe this goes to another subject, but the older I get the worse a distaste I get for notions of "could have". "Would have" is valid in some contexts, I think, as it is even said by God, and principles of cause and result are commonly discussed, applied to such things as obedience/ deeds, but speculation is not. If God did not do it (i.e. decree it), it could not have happened.

The fact that WE don't know what will happen does not mean it is uncertain.

I agree that death was the judicial punishment, primarily spiritual death which Adam and Eve experienced the very day they rebelled against God. I am wondering if physical death is simply incidental (“spiritually dead mortals will eventually die physically”), an entailment of losing immediate communion with God, being expelled from the garden, and denied access to the tree of life. What if physical death is not a punishment for sin, but is rather incidental to the punishment for sin? If physical death is a punishment for sin, then

• why do redeemed saints die physically when Christ bore the punishment for sin? Does God punish twice for the same sin, first the Substitute and then the sinner?
  
  ​
• why do animals die? They neither sin nor was Adam ever their federal head.

The last two here look like good threads to pursue.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I agree. Maybe this goes to another subject, but the older I get the worse a distaste I get for notions of "could have". "

And I struggle to find where in the Bible humanity is called 'evolved apes', where death is only and exclusively called "spiritual" or any of the other things being taught.

"The wages of sin is spiritual death only" is not found in Scripture.

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death" 1 Corinthians 15:26

If death was natural and biological and not judicial it wouldn't be an enemy at all, let alone the last enemy to be destroyed.

Ideas and ideology is something each much choose for himself, but I'll stick with the plain sense of Scripture and not try and shoehorn evolution into it.

That's what the feminists did with their ideology too. Split nearly every denominationsm.

 

[John Bauer]

I struggle to find where in the Bible humanity is called 'evolved apes', …

The Bible also does not call mankind a “species,” or the earth a “planet,” or the stars “suns,” or any number of other modern scientific designations.

Well, maybe it’s because the Bible is not a scientific text.

[I struggle to find ] where death is only and exclusively called "spiritual" …

And I am not aware of anyone claiming that death, in Scripture, is “only and exclusively” spiritual.

“The wages of sin is spiritual death only” is not found in Scripture.

As far as I can tell, you are the only one inserting the word “only” (pun intended).

If death was natural and biological and not judicial …

Again, I am not aware of anyone claiming that physical death is “not judicial.”

Ideas and ideology is something each much choose for himself, but I'll stick with the plain sense of Scripture and not try and shoehorn evolution into it.

Is there anyone in these forums trying to shoehorn evolution into Scripture?

No, there is not.

Looking at all of these objections, I am compelled to ask: To whose view are you objecting? Not that of anyone here, it seems.

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death" 1 Corinthians 15:26

Is spiritual death a biblical reality? If so, how is it an enemy? (I dare someone to say that it’s not.)

Most Christians seem to believe that when they die physically, their soul departs the earthly realm to be “at home with the Lord.” At Christ’s return there is a general resurrection, in which the saints are raised bodily—reconstituted and transformed—and thereafter remain forever with the Lord in the consummated kingdom. Question: Given all that being true, exactly how is physical death an enemy?

 

[QVQ]

Most Christians seem to believe that when they die physically, their soul departs the earthly realm to be “at home with the Lord.” At Christ’s return there is a general resurrection, in which the saints are raised bodily—reconstituted and transformed—and thereafter remain forever with the Lord in the consummated kingdom. Question: Given all that being true, exactly how is physical death an enemy?

The problem with physical death is getting sick enough to do it.
It is the pain, suffering, the corruption after the fall
Physical death to Adam, we can only speculate although Adam could die.
Physical death to us is a horror show. In fact it is The horror show.
No pain, no physical suffering, nor all the ills the Flesh is heir to, what a wonderful world that would be, almost heaven.
The world God created and pronounced "good" was corrupted in the fall.
Although Satan does not rule on earth, because if he did, it would be total hell
The world is Satan's playground. It is a different world than Adam inhabited entirely

 

[John Bauer]

The problem with physical death is getting sick enough to do it.
It is the pain, suffering, the corruption after the fall
Physical death to Adam, we can only speculate although Adam could die.
Physical death to us is a horror show. In fact it is The horror show.
No pain, no physical suffering, nor all the ills the Flesh is heir to, what a wonderful world that would be, almost heaven.
The world God created and pronounced "good" was corrupted in the fall.
Although Satan does not rule on earth, because if he did, it would be total hell
The world is Satan's playground. It is a different world than Adam inhabited entirely

Suppose we grant that pain, illness, and suffering are experienced as a horror show.

How does that answer the question I asked?

 

[QVQ]

Is spiritual death a biblical reality? If so, how is it an enemy? (I dare someone to say that it’s not.)

Most Christians seem to believe that when they die physically, their soul departs the earthly realm to be “at home with the Lord.” At Christ’s return there is a general resurrection, in which the saints are raised bodily—reconstituted and transformed—and thereafter remain forever with the Lord in the consummated kingdom. Question: Given all that being true, exactly how is physical death an enemy?

The OP is "Did the Fall Initiate Death and Predation
When a Christian dies physically, their soul departs from the earthly realm to be with God.
That is After Christ defeated spiritual death on the Cross.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57, 2 Timothy 1:10, and 1 Corinthians 15:26
And Christ will return to defeat physical death at the resurrection.
So death, being necessary of defeat, is an enemy.

So, if Adam sinned, physical and spiritual death resulted, then the Fall initiated death
Christ Resurrected was triumph over death, which death resulted from Adam's sin

I am hesitant to mention some things because I don't mean in any way to infere anything about God
Genesis 3: 21 references predation
Genesis 3: 15 enmity, enemy, predatation? Enmity is the right to self defense rather than predation.?

Raises some questions (by quite a stretch)
Death was a condition after the Fall and to get dead required the beasts to munch on man and on each other
If enmity is a factor in that munching
Is enmity a sin? Does sin require intent? Or even knowledge of sin?
Is enmity in Genesis 3:15 decreed specifically and is not a factor in the natural order of things.

@Carbon rated some of my posts above as "unsure" I can only say "Me Too!"

 

[John Bauer]

How is physical death an enemy?

Death, being necessary of defeat, is an enemy.

I just don't feel answered.

 

[Arial]

The Bible also does not call mankind a “species,” or the earth a “planet,” or the stars “suns,” or any number of other modern scientific designations.

Well, maybe it’s because the Bible is not a scientific text.



And I am not aware of anyone claiming that death, in Scripture, is “only and exclusively” spiritual.



As far as I can tell, you are the only one inserting the word “only” (pun intended).



Again, I am not aware of anyone claiming that physical death is “not judicial.”



Is there anyone in these forums trying to shoehorn evolution into Scripture?

No, there is not.

Looking at all of these objections, I am compelled to ask: To whose view are you objecting? Not that of anyone here, it seems.



Is spiritual death a biblical reality? If so, how is it an enemy? (I dare someone to say that it’s not.)

Most Christians seem to believe that when they die physically, their soul departs the earthly realm to be “at home with the Lord.” At Christ’s return there is a general resurrection, in which the saints are raised bodily—reconstituted and transformed—and thereafter remain forever with the Lord in the consummated kingdom. Question: Given all that being true, exactly how is physical death an enemy?

! Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

But then in verse 54b-57 we have this:
then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Death was our enemy but for the believer two things: Sin has no power to condemn us because we are clothed the robes of Christ's righteousness. And death has no power to power to hold us. Physical death is not our enemy anymore. And it won't exist in the consummated kingdom (Rev.21). Which is one reason I don't believe there was death pre-fall in all that was created on the earth. Is 11 does show animals existing after the consummation. I suspect the idea that there must of necessity been death before the fall may stem from our inability to not comprehend n death or imagine how the world could function without death.

As for spiritual death. I have always had a problem understanding what that meant and even more of a problem finding inferred in the Bible. It certainly isn't explicitly stated. One thing fueling it is no doubt the fact that Adam didn't die when he bit into that fruit. He lived to a ripe old age. But God did not say that he would die as soon as he ate of the forbidden fruit. And he wouldn't have died at all if he had been allowed access to the tree of life. Adam did die eventually, and so do we, and as a result, so does everything else.