Delivered From the Law

[Dave]

Only those who are following Christ’s example of walking in obedience to God’s law are in Christ (1 John 2:6).

Hi @Soyeong

We should only look to our works as an evidence. Once we cross the line and look to our works to justify ourselves, this parable in Luke applies.

Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The sinner was justified. The tax collector who obeyed God's Law perfectly (at least in his own mind) wasn't. Obeying God wasn't the sin. It was trusting in obeying God that made the tax collector not justified. The sinner who trusted in Jesus was justified.

The merits that justify us before God are all from Jesus.

Dave

 

[Soyeong]

Hi @Soyeong

We should only look to our works as an evidence. Once we cross the line and look to our works to justify ourselves, this parable in Luke applies.

Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The sinner was justified. The tax collector who obeyed God's Law perfectly (at least in his own mind) wasn't. Obeying God wasn't the sin. It was trusting in obeying God that made the tax collector not justified. The sinner who trusted in Jesus was justified.

The merits that justify us before God are all from Jesus.

Dave

Hello,

For someone who have a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait, so God being a doer of righteous works is not evidence that He righteous so much as it is what it means for God to be righteous.

God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it it would be contradictory for someone to think that they should trust in God instead of trusting in His instructions. Likewise, relying on ourselves for our justification would involve doing something other than relying on God's instructions because it would be contradictory to rely on ourselves by relying on God. It would also be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God's word made flesh instead of in God's word.

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he never criticized the for being zealous for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law, so he was not opposing their obedience to it, but was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters. Jesus also criticized Pharisees for their pride and hypocrisy of doing things for show, but again the fault was never with relying on God's instructions.

 

[prism]

Doing good works has nothing to do with trying to be good enough to be acceptable to God.

So why did you mention this?...
"We can do works that express faith, such as with all of the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works."
The way I understand you, faith is manifested by our works works which expresses our faith. Very confusing.

 

[Soyeong]

So why did you mention this?...
"We can do works that express faith, such as with all of the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works."
The way I understand you, faith is manifested by our works works which expresses our faith. Very confusing.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done enough of those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

If you came across a bridge that someone told you was safe, then the way for you to trust them would be by crossing the bridge. If you said that you trusted them, but you refused to cross the bridge, then your acts would be showing that you don't actually trust them. You don't have to cross the bridge enough times in order to prove that you trust them, but rather crossing it is simply the way to trust them. Likewise, the way to have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live is by following His instructions, which is why James said that he would show his faith by his works.

 

[prism]

If you came across a bridge that someone told you was safe, then the way for you to trust them would be by crossing the bridge. If you said that you trusted them, but you refused to cross the bridge, then your acts would be showing that you don't actually trust them. You don't have to cross the bridge enough times in order to prove that you trust them, but rather crossing it is simply the way to trust them. Likewise, the way to have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live is by following His instructions, which is why James said that he would show his faith by his works.

That may be true in the natural way of thinking, but I'm glad and trusting that Jesus crossed that bridge in our place (faith in Him).

 

[Soyeong]

That may be true in the natural way of thinking, but I'm glad and trusting that Jesus crossed that bridge in our place (faith in Him).

Jesus did not prevent our salvation by crossing the bridge in our place. It is contradictory to have faith in Jesus, but not in what He taught or to have faith in God's word made flesh. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those kept God's commandments.

 

[Eleanor]

If you are not doing what God has instructed in His law, then apparently you do have to be taught that.

If you are born again, you will be loving God and neighbor as self, whereby the law is fulfilled (Ro 13:8, 10), nothing else is needed, for love guarantees obedience.

He who loves has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8).

 

[Soyeong]

If you are born again, you will be loving God and neighbor as self, whereby the law is fulfilled (Ro 13:8, 10), nothing else is needed, for love guarantees obedience.

He who loves has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8).

If someone is not a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, then they are not born again (1 John 3:4-10). If someone is not obeying the rest of God's commandments, then they are not correctly obeying the greatest two commandments. If nothing else were needed, then God would not have needed to have given His law in the first place, but rather He gave it because it was needed.

 

[Eleanor]

If someone is not a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, then they are not born again (1 John 3:4-10). If someone is not obeying the rest of God's commandments, then they are not correctly obeying the greatest two commandments. If nothing else were needed, then God would not have needed to have given His law in the first place, but rather He gave it because it was needed.

Which does not alter Ro 13:8: He who loves has fulfilled the law.

 

[Soyeong]

Which does not alter Ro 13:8: He who loves has fulfilled the law.

Everything in God's law is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because it is showing a correct understanding of what it is essentially about how to do. Love does not replace the law. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so that does not leave any room for someone to think that we just need to love and can be lawless to everything else.

 

[Eleanor]

Everything in God's law is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because it is showing a correct understanding of what it is essentially about how to do. Love does not replace the law.

And therein is the issue. . .love is the law, total fulfillment of the law. . .nothing more needs to be added to love, its total fulfillment (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[Soyeong]

And therein is the issue. . .love is the law, total fulfillment of the law. . .nothing more needs to be added to love, its total fulfillment (Ro 13:8, 10).

Again, if it were true that nothing needs to be added, then nothing would have been added. Thankfully God added the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it means to correctly obey the greatest two commandments.

 

[Eleanor]

Again, if it were true that nothing needs to be added, then nothing would have been added. Thankfully God added the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it means to correctly obey the greatest two commandments.

Don't confuse OT doctrine with NT doctrine. . .

 

[Soyeong]

Don't confuse OT doctrine with NT doctrine. . .

I didn't. Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two commandments, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit murder, adultery, theft, idolatry, favoritism, kidnapping, rape, and so forth for the rest of God's commandments. It is contradictory for someone to want to obey God's commandment to love, but not His other commandments for how to do that.

 

[Eleanor]

I didn't. Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two commandments, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them.

Obeying the two is, in and of itself, complete obedience of all the others (Ro 13:8, 10).

That is NT doctrine.

 

[Soyeong]

Obeying the two is, in and of itself, complete obedience of all the others (Ro 13:8, 10).

That is NT doctrine.

That is true insofar as the greatest two commandments are inclusive of all of the others. Part of what it means to love God and our neighbor is to refrain from committing adultery. If someone thinks that they just need to love God and their neighbor, so they don't need to obey the law against committing adultery, then they do not correctly understand what it means to love and and their neighbor.

 

[prism]

Jesus did not prevent our salvation by crossing the bridge in our place. It is contradictory to have faith in Jesus, but not in what He taught or to have faith in God's word made flesh. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those kept God's commandments.

True, He did not prevent our salvation by crossing the bridge in our place; instead, He secured our salvation through his Blood.

Leviticus 17:11 KJV
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (not our works)

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Ephesians 1:7 KJV
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Exodus 12:12-13 KJV
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. [13] And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 24:8 KJV
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Acts 20:28 KJV
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Hebrews 9:14,18,20-22 KJV
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. [20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. [21] Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Revelation 5:9 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[Soyeong]

True, He did not prevent our salvation by crossing the bridge in our place; instead, He secured our salvation through his Blood.

Leviticus 17:11 KJV
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (not our works)

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Ephesians 1:7 KJV
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Exodus 12:12-13 KJV
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. [13] And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 24:8 KJV
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

Acts 20:28 KJV
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Hebrews 9:14,18,20-22 KJV
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. [20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. [21] Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Revelation 5:9 KJV
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Jesus did not obey the law on our behalf so that we do to have to, but rather he did that so that we would have an example to follow. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (1 John 3:4). Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, but if he had instead obeyed the law on our behalf, then he would have been preventing our salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

That is true insofar as the greatest two commandments are inclusive of all of the others. Part of what it means to love God and our neighbor is to refrain from committing adultery. If someone thinks that they just need to love God and their neighbor, so they don't need to obey the law against committing adultery, then they do not correctly understand what it means to love and and their neighbor.

Committing adultery is not loving to a spouse, and we don't need a law to know that.

 

[prism]

Jesus did not obey the law on our behalf so that we do to have to, but rather he did that so that we would have an example to follow.

Why did you write that? I never said anything to that effect.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (1 John 3:4). Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, but if he had instead obeyed the law on our behalf, then he would have been preventing our salvation.

My last post mentioned many verses regarding the blood of Christ and your response neglected everything I said, because you never mentioned anything about the blood of Christ. There is no conversation here.