Covenant vs Dispensation

[Arial]

@CrowCross

For over a hundred years, the predominant interpretive method of the Bible has been Dispensational. From that came dispensational premillenialism---the idea of a seven year tribulation, followed by a literal thousand year reign of Christ in Jerusalem. Prior to this tribulation, it is posited that the saints will be raptured from the Earth so they don't endure God's wrath. That of course presumes that the seven years is God's wrath. None of those things are supported by Scripture, but it is not my intent here to do an interpretation of all the scriptures involved. That would be prohibitive on a forum site.

The thrust of this OP is bring to the attention of pre-tribbers and Dispensationalists in general, that there is another interpretive method than the one being used, which interprets through dispensations in which God is said to be testing and judging people in different ways. And that is covenant used as the frame work upon which the house is built.

No doubt there are many who do not know there is another lens or who do but don't investigate it. It is a condition of being satisfied with what one has and assuming it is right, with no interest in finding out, or not knowing where to look.

I describe the two views as two lenses. A covenant lens and a dispensational lens. A lens is what we view something through. Now think how limited the photographs of a photographer would be if he only ever used one lens to take photos. He would be locked out of ever having photography as an art or profession. The same would be true of the use of lighting and aperture, if he never played with lighting, noticed it, and never changed the aperture which controls the amount of light coming through the lens.

So here are a couple of references to get the curious started. For learning covenant and how it plays out in the historical story of redemption (the Bible): Far As the Curse is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption by Michael D. Williams.

Having gotten the principles down as it walks through Scripture, one can them move on and see how it arrives at its Amillennial conclusions with A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger.

Happy hunting!

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross

For over a hundred years, the predominant interpretive method of the Bible has been Dispensational. From that came dispensational premillenialism---the idea of a seven year tribulation, followed by a literal thousand year reign of Christ in Jerusalem. Prior to this tribulation, it is posited that the saints will be raptured from the Earth so they don't endure God's wrath. That of course presumes that the seven years is God's wrath. None of those things are supported by Scripture, but it is not my intent here to do an interpretation of all the scriptures involved. That would be prohibitive on a forum site.

The thrust of this OP is bring to the attention of pre-tribbers and Dispensationalists in general, that there is another interpretive method than the one being used, which interprets through dispensations in which God is said to be testing and judging people in different ways. And that is covenant used as the frame work upon which the house is built.

No doubt there are many who do not know there is another lens or who do but don't investigate it. It is a condition of being satisfied with what one has and assuming it is right, with no interest in finding out, or not knowing where to look.

I describe the two views as two lenses. A covenant lens and a dispensational lens. A lens is what we view something through. Now think how limited the photographs of a photographer would be if he only ever used one lens to take photos. He would be locked out of ever having photography as an art or profession. The same would be true of the use of lighting and aperture, if he never played with lighting, noticed it, and never changed the aperture which controls the amount of light coming through the lens.

So here are a couple of references to get the curious started. For learning covenant and how it plays out in the historical story of redemption (the Bible): Far As the Curse is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption by Michael D. Williams.

Having gotten the principles down as it walks through Scripture, one can them move on and see how it arrives at its Amillennial conclusions with A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger.

Happy hunting!

Tell us what's next and how it will happen.
From what I understand your escatological view is that the christians will control the economic, education, political, financial, religious communities in order to prepare the world for Christ return.

 

[Arial]

Tell us what's next and how it will happen.
From what I understand your escatological view is that the christians will control the economic, education, political, financial, religious communities in order to prepare the world for Christ return.

That isn't my view at all. And I have no idea where you got the idea that it was.

I gave you resources to use if your curious as to what it is the "other" side believes and why they believe it. Read them. At least so you will know what you are talking about before you start throwing accusations and assumptions around, and how to make a case against it if that is what you want to do. Unsupported opinions and avoiding dealing with what is said will not get the job done.

 

[CrowCross]

That isn't my view at all. And I have no idea where you got the idea that it was.

I gave you resources to use if your curious as to what it is the "other" side believes and why they believe it. Read them. At least so you will know what you are talking about before you start throwing accusations and assumptions around, and how to make a case against it if that is what you want to do. Unsupported opinions and avoiding dealing with what is said will not get the job done.

Will you answer the question?

Tell us what's next and how it will happen.

 

[Arial]

Will you answer the question?

Tell us what's next and how it will happen.

You are asking me to answer a question, when you have still not answered mine in the other thread concerning the signs of the times. And even though I don't think you have ever answered a single question, I or anyone else has asked. Never dealt with what we say or the scriptures we present as support for what we say.



Here is what happens next. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes. persecution of the church, suffering, death storms, tribulations, to put it another way, while Jesus, through the saints, gathers his people into the flock. All those the Father is giving him, and who he knew before the foundation of the world (in eternity iow). Until Jesus returns and destroys the last enemy---death, the saints are resurrected and those alive at his coming, changed, and then what we see in Rev 21. God dwelling with us, a new heaven and a new earth.

What happens next is what has been happening since Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden. But more specifically since the first advent of Christ. and will continue until he returns.

Do you have any intention of reading either of the books I suggested so you don't hijack another thread to promote your speculations as fact, without ever looking at anything else? Is it going to turn into another thread that is akin to one man looking off into the distance and saying to the man beside him, "Look over there near the trees! It is a bear!" The other man looks at the spot through his binoculars and laughing says, "There is no bear. It is a boulder covered with moss. Here, have a look." He hands the first man his binoculars but the man says, "I don't need those binoculars, and I don't want them. It is a bear,"

At least, I beg of you, if you are going to engage in this OP, that you begin reading the information that was offered. The subject from either side cannot be adequately discussed unless both sides know what it is they are arguing against, and from the POV of the Amillennial view and the POV of the Dispensational premillenialism. The subject is too large to cover, too many details, too many dots to connect, on a forum, when one person just attacks the view of the other; asks questions and will only be satisfied unless they get the answer from their POV. When it is just an argument, one half of which is mostly unintelligible because it only offers its interpretations and pays not a lick of attention to the other side, but simply treats it with contempt.

And I do know your POV. I lived in it for over twenty years. But I did not want to wander around blind, believing something that may or may not be true, so I investigated the matter. It is as difficult to let go of, that pre-trib rapture theory, as it is for a devout Catholic to stop trusting in a priest for grace unto salvation, or submit to Sola scriptura. Unwittingly, it has become an anchor. A hill they are willing to die on. As difficult as it is to get an Arminianist to stop hating Reformed theology. But with a sincere heart to seek the truth of the matter, seeking the grace from the throne of grace to lead you into all truth, no matter what it may be, a willingness to put in the study and investigation necessary and available, it can be done.

 

[EarlyActs]

Gal 4 tells us that the dispensation/management of God's truth under the Law was like the task of a governess/child-trainer. This management has no problem being enveloped by the covenant. The term 'old covenant' was actually used about the entanglements it created that made it harder, rather than easier, to see the gift of the Seed/Christ through it all. And they applied because of the pagan culture that was in Cana.

 

[Arial]

Gal 4 tells us that the dispensation/management of God's truth under the Law was like the task of a governess/child-trainer. This management has no problem being enveloped by the covenant. The term 'old covenant' was actually used about the entanglements it created that made it harder, rather than easier, to see the gift of the Seed/Christ through it all. And they applied because of the pagan culture that was in Cana.

However the Sinai covenant was not separate from the Covenant of Redemption, that existed within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. and announced in Gen 3:14-15. It was a part of it, not a dispensation alienated from the New Covenant with Christ as the mediator. It was what moved the COR forward, established the law that Christ would perfectly obey, and that convicted every man woman and child, Hebrew and Gentile alike, the law which Jesus was born under.

 

[CrowCross]

You are asking me to answer a question, when you have still not answered mine in the other thread concerning the signs of the times. And even though I don't think you have ever answered a single question, I or anyone else has asked. Never dealt with what we say or the scriptures we present as support for what we say.

Of course I haven't answered the questions...you don't have ears to hear. ANY question I answer you will argue. Then claim I haven't answered it.

Here is what happens next. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes. persecution of the church, suffering, death storms, tribulations, to put it another way, while Jesus, through the saints, gathers his people into the flock. All those the Father is giving him, and who he knew before the foundation of the world (in eternity iow). Until Jesus returns and destroys the last enemy---death, the saints are resurrected and those alive at his coming, changed, and then what we see in Rev 21. God dwelling with us, a new heaven and a new earth.

There are christians who believe the christians will control the economic, education, political, financial, religious communities in order to prepare the world for Christ return. I don't believe that "replacement" type of theology. I'm happy to hear neither do you.

Thing is, you post all that end time stuff...yet deny there will be a mark. Rev 13.

What happens next is what has been happening since Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden. But more specifically since the first advent of Christ. and will continue until he returns.

Do you have any intention of reading either of the books I suggested

No. Tell me why I should read them? It's kinda like a mormon posting a reference to the D&C and then asking me if I have any intentions of reading it. That answer would also be no.

so you don't hijack another thread to promote your speculations as fact, without ever looking at anything else? Is it going to turn into another thread that is akin to one man looking off into the distance and saying to the man beside him, "Look over there near the trees! It is a bear!" The other man looks at the spot through his binoculars and laughing says, "There is no bear. It is a boulder covered with moss. Here, have a look." He hands the first man his binoculars but the man says, "I don't need those binoculars, and I don't want them. It is a bear,"

Perhaps I siuld post a list of the hundreds of book about the pre-trib rapture....then ask you...do you intend on reading them?

At least, I beg of you, if you are going to engage in this OP, that you begin reading the information that was offered. The subject from either side cannot be adequately discussed unless both sides know what it is they are arguing against, and from the POV of the Amillennial view and the POV of the Dispensational premillenialism. The subject is too large to cover, too many details, too many dots to connect, on a forum, when one person just attacks the view of the other; asks questions and will only be satisfied unless they get the answer from their POV. When it is just an argument, one half of which is mostly unintelligible because it only offers its interpretations and pays not a lick of attention to the other side, but simply treats it with contempt.

I would assume your book only offer an interpretation.

And I do know your POV. I lived in it for over twenty years. But I did not want to wander around blind, believing something that may or may not be true, so I investigated the matter. It is as difficult to let go of, that pre-trib rapture theory, as it is for a devout Catholic to stop trusting in a priest for grace unto salvation, or submit to Sola scriptura. Unwittingly, it has become an anchor. A hill they are willing to die on. As difficult as it is to get an Arminianist to stop hating Reformed theology. But with a sincere heart to seek the truth of the matter, seeking the grace from the throne of grace to lead you into all truth, no matter what it may be, a willingness to put in the study and investigation necessary and available, it can be done.

Eh, I used to be an Arminianist. Not now.
I have a bunch of books on escatology...all views. The pre-trib view fits the best.

 

[CrowCross]

However the Sinai covenant was not separate from the Covenant of Redemption, that existed within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. and announced in Gen 3:14-15. It was a part of it, not a dispensation alienated from the New Covenant with Christ as the mediator. It was what moved the COR forward, established the law that Christ would perfectly obey, and that convicted every man woman and child, Hebrew and Gentile alike, the law which Jesus was born under.

The method of salvation has always been the same. Faith, grace....
What the dispensationalist say is God treated men differently through out history.

 

[Arial]

The method of salvation has always been the same. Faith, grace....
What the dispensationalist say is God treated men differently through out history.

But it wasn't about men and treating them differently. It was always about Christ. The Seed. He always treated them as sinners because that is what they are. What dispensationalism says is that each dispensation is one in which God tested men and ultimately judged them when they failed the test. There is no continuity. No eternal covenant of redemption within the Godhead before creation. The Bible is one story with many moving parts. And that story is the Covenant of Redemption entering history and progressing through history. And Christ is always the central focus and purpose. By him, and through him, and for him.

 

[CrowCross]

What dispensationalism says is that each dispensation is one in which God tested men and ultimately judged them when they failed the test.

I disagree. For example from the fall to Noah in the Antediluvian world God treated man differently. Then God "switched" so to speak to the Law. We are now in the dispensation of Grace or the church age. Every age salvation was based upon faith and grace.
There was no "test"...yet keep in mind man failed in every dispensation.

 

[Arial]

Of course I haven't answered the questions...you don't have ears to hear. ANY question I answer you will argue. Then claim I haven't answered it.

That is an excuse for not being able to answer. For having no answer. You never listen to the answers I give, argue with them, repeat your position, say I haven't answered, and then still expect me to answer your questions. The projection is remarkable. I deal with what you say, rather than act like it was never said and not worth hearing. You do not do the same.

There are christians who believe the christians will control the economic, education, political, financial, religious communities in order to prepare the world for Christ return. I don't believe that "replacement" type of theology. I'm happy to hear neither do you.

Thing is, you post all that end time stuff...yet deny there will be a mark. Rev 13.

What about what I said? You dealt with none of it. You simply posted two red herrings, trying to highjack the thread. A one pony show.

No. Tell me why I should read them? It's kinda like a mormon posting a reference to the D&C and then asking me if I have any intentions of reading it. That answer would also be no.

I did tell you why you should read them. If a person is going to engage in a discussion with a Mormon intelligently, they better know what Mormonism is and have a working knowledge of it. Otherwise they just joined in for the sake of arguing, thinking they are perfectly capable of doing so from ignorance of the subject matter.

I suggested you read them because you continue to argue against both the covenant position and all Amillennial positions. At the very least, you could make an informed decision instead of one that just parrots what pro dispensational premillennialist have said/written. It is quite possible to learn about something without agreeing with it. No need to be afraid to look. You treat this forum and all the eschatalogical threads you are in as your private pre-trib rapture, Revelation authority, pulpit. That is not what the forum is. It is a discussion board.

Perhaps I siuld post a list of the hundreds of book about the pre-trib rapture....then ask you...do you intend on reading them?

I already have read plenty. I actually know my subject. Like I said, I was sailing in the same boat you are for over twenty years.

I would assume your book only offer an interpretation.

Well, the one on covenant explains what covenant theology is, traces it through the historical accounts in the Bible, shows God as a covenant God who establishes relationships with humans through covenant (not dispensations, which is not a relationship) etc. The place to go to find out what covenant theology is would not be to a book on dispensationalism, but one on covenant.

The one on Amillennialism actually covers the dispensational premil view comparing it with the amil views, scripture by scripture with scripture. But by all means, don't read it. Keep on with blind belief in something. And you might even discover that you still believe what you believe now, but realize they do have a point. It isn't all smoke and mirrors, and spiritualizing, and lose the contempt and false accusations of denying certain scriptures. Possible, you might even come to a place most of us, dispensationalist pre-mil excepted, are. A more humble place of sure, leaning more one way than the other, recognizing blatant violations of Scripture interpretation, but still able to say, "I don't know for sure. But I trust God." Would either of those things be so terrible?

I have a bunch of books on escatology...all views. The pre-trib view fits the best.

Have you read them? What are the titles and authors? The "all views" ones?

 

[Arial]

I disagree. For example from the fall to Noah in the Antediluvian world God treated man differently. Then God "switched" so to speak to the Law. We are now in the dispensation of Grace or the church age. Every age salvation was based upon faith and grace.
There was no "test"...yet keep in mind man failed in every dispensation.

How did he treat him differently?

 

[Arial]

I disagree. For example from the fall to Noah in the Antediluvian world God treated man differently. Then God "switched" so to speak to the Law. We are now in the dispensation of Grace or the church age. Every age salvation was based upon faith and grace.
There was no "test"...yet keep in mind man failed in every dispensation.

There was more to my post than just that. That wasn't even the meat of my post. Can you PLEASE stop doing that and deal with the material of a post so a conversation can ensue?

 

[CrowCross]

How did he treat him differently?

I would imagine several ways...for starters only certain people were given the Holy Spirit. Now every believer is given the Holy Spirit.

 

[CrowCross]

There was more to my post than just that. That wasn't even the meat of my post. Can you PLEASE stop doing that and deal with the material of a post so a conversation can ensue?

Conversations built. Often other examples are brought up to help establish a point.

 

[CrowCross]

What about what I said? You dealt with none of it. You simply posted two red herrings, trying to highjack the thread. A one pony show.

LOL.....I was trying to determine what you think. There are millennialist christians who think when they take control of the earth Jesus will return then.