Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalsim

[Carbon]

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Eph 3:6.

Scripture emphasizes the fact that the church in both the Old and the New Testament is one. It is one chosen people in Christ. It is one tent, one vineyard, one family - Abraham is the father of all believers, whether they be circumcised or not, one olive tree, one elect race, one royal priesthood, one holy nation, people for God’s own possession. One bride, and in its consummation one new Jerusalem whose gates bear the names of the twelve tribes and whose foundations are inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles.

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29

 

[TMSO]

Your point?

The point is that because the view of Israel is not correct, the eschatology is not correct. There is one plan of redemption, and Israel, the church, Jews, and Gentiles are distinct throughout. Why? God had specific dealings with the Jews and Israel that He did not have with the Gentiles and the church. All that has to be reconciled. Paul did a good job of doing that, but everyone changes what he says.

 

[TMSO]

Scripture emphasizes the fact that the church in both the Old and the New Testament is one. It is one chosen people in Christ. It is one tent, one vineyard, one family - Abraham is the father of all believers, whether they be circumcised or not, one olive tree, one elect race, one royal priesthood, one holy nation, people for God’s own possession. One bride, and in its consummation one new Jerusalem whose gates bear the names of the twelve tribes and whose foundations are inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles.

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29

There is no church in the Old Testament. Paul already said that it was a complete mystery, not present in the Old Testament, that was revealed to him and the apostles. The word "church" shows up next to Israel in the New Testament because some translator decided to take the greek word for assembly/congregation and translate it as church. There was no specific word in the Greek that means church. The main translation is assembly/congregation.

And, the Abrahamic covenant is not for believers universally, but for Jewish believers. The promises made outside of the covenant are for all believers, where it says it is. The Abrahamic covenant has nothing to do with salvation, while the promises do.

 

[Carbon]

The Dispensational teaching that God has a separate purpose for Israel and the church is in error. Dispensationalism always insists that Israel and the church must always be kept separate. They claim that when the bible talks about Israel, it does not mean the church or the other ay around, if it talks about the church, it does not mean Israel. They claim that, since there are many OT promises by God for Israel, which have not been fulfilled yet, these promises must still be fulfilled in the future, to Israel, not the church.

But, when these statements are made when the bible talks about Israel, it never means the church, or when it talks about the church, it never means Israel. They are in error because the NT often interprets expressions relating to Israel in such a way as to apply them to the NT church, which includes both Jews and Gentiles.

There is at least one NT passage where the term Israel is used as inclusive of Gentiles, and therefore as standing for the entire NT church. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:15-16.
So, who is meant by the "all who follow this rule?" Obviously, all those who are new creatures in Christ, for whom neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. This would have to include all true believers, both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Carbon]

There is no church in the Old Testament. Paul already said that it was a complete mystery, not present in the Old Testament, that was revealed to him and the apostles. The word "church" shows up next to Israel in the New Testament because some translator decided to take the greek word for assembly/congregation and translate it as church. There was no specific word in the Greek that means church. The main translation is assembly/congregation.

Sure, there was. The overarching one covenant of grace, which connects all believers, New and Old, proves that the church existed from Adam. It's sad you do not see that.

And, the Abrahamic covenant is not for believers universally, but for Jewish believers. The promises made outside of the covenant are for all believers, where it says it is. The Abrahamic covenant has nothing to do with salvation, while the promises do.

Well, I think you should re-read the Abrahamic covenant, I believe you're missing out on a lot, or you're just denying it.

You should see, the Abrahamic covenant extends to all believers, not just ethnic Jews. And this is through faith in Christ, who is the promised "seed" that brings blessing to all nations. If you would rather not do the work yourself, I can and will point out the scriptures that teach Gentiles are grafted into this covenant through faith. Thereby, inheriting promises as Abraham's spiritual descendants rather than through physical lineage.

I do suggest, though, you do the work and see for yourself.

 

[Carbon]

@TMSO

Hoping these may help.

He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4:11-12.

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. Gal 3:16.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29.

 

[TMSO]

The Dispensational teaching that God has a separate purpose for Israel and the church is in error. Dispensationalism always insists that Israel and the church must always be kept separate. They claim that when the bible talks about Israel, it does not mean the church or the other ay around, if it talks about the church, it does not mean Israel. They claim that, since there are many OT promises by God for Israel, which have not been fulfilled yet, these promises must still be fulfilled in the future, to Israel, not the church.

The Bible is talking about Israel when it says Israel. Most of the time, the nation of Israel, the rest of the time the elect remnant that exists within Israel. They are separate. However, there is an intersection between the elect remnant of Israel and the church. Gentiles are not a part of Israel. Gentiles are not covered by the Abrahamic or Davidic covenants.

But, when these statements are made when the bible talks about Israel, it never means the church, or when it talks about the church, it never means Israel. They are in error because the NT often interprets expressions relating to Israel in such a way as to apply them to the NT church, which includes both Jews and Gentiles.

While the church includes the Jews and Gentiles, Israel does not include the Gentiles. Never has, never will. There is only one exception, and that is proselytes. The Gentiles who leave their world and take on the heritage of the Jews. That means, they have to follow the Law. This is why Paul is so against the Judaizers. No more. This was an Old Testament, pre new-covenant thing. People still "proselytize", such as for marriage.

There is at least one NT passage where the term Israel is used as inclusive of Gentiles, and therefore as standing for the entire NT church. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:15-16.

This speaks to two different groups. Those who walk by this rule, may peace and mercy be upon them, AND may peace and mercy be upon the Israel of God. A second group. There are two Israels. The nation of Israel, secular, hell bound. They violated the covenant, and they are not elect. Then there is the Israel of God, which is the elect remnant that is within Israel, those who were, are, and will be saved. So no, the term Israel here is not inclusive of Gentiles. The CHURCH is inclusive of the Gentiles.

The church started at Pentecost, as Jesus told Peter that his name means rock, and upon that rock He WILL build His church. What was that rock? Jesus wasn't talking about Peter or about Himself. He is talking about the faith that Peter presented. That faith where Peter said that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Most High God. Upon that faith, the church is built. That content of faith does not exist in the Old Testament. More evidence the church did not exist in the Old Testament. What were the keys that Jesus gave to Peter? (Not to the apostles, not to the church). The keys to the church so to speak. Who was at the head of bringing Jews into the church at Pentecost? Peter. Who went to Cornelius and presided over their reception of the Holy Spirit, sent by God? Peter. Who brought the Holy Spirit to the Samaritans? This is where it gets interesting. Philip and other apostles evangelized the Samaritans, but it says they had to wait for Peter in order for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit, the sign of entrance into the body of Christ, the church. They had to wait for Peter.

So, who is meant by the "all who follow this rule?" Obviously, all those who are new creatures in Christ, for whom neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. This would have to include all true believers, both Jew and Gentile.

Yes, and what group includes both saved Jews and Gentiles? The church. And then you have this, and the Israel of God. That speaks to the elect remnant that remains in Israel until the day Jesus returns and all Israel is saved. (All who remain to see Jesus return will be the remnant, or as God puts it in Zechariah, the 1/3rd.) 2/3rds of Israel will be destroyed, while 1/3rd will be saved by God for Himself. Again, that word AND means, and also, as in, in addition to. The translation you chose makes it even more clear. Upon those who walk by this rule, and upon the Israel of God. Treated as two different groups.

There are two Israels. The secular nation of Israel that is not the true Israel, and then God's elect remnant in Israel that is the Israel OF GOD. They are His.

 

[TMSO]

Sure, there was. The overarching one covenant of grace, which connects all believers, New and Old, proves that the church existed from Adam. It's sad you do not see that.

Could you give a Bible verse anywhere that speaks of some overarching covenant of grace? The church did not exist from Adam. Paul said the church was a mystery. Why was the church a mystery? There is nothing in the Old Testament that says the Gentiles will be included.

Ephesians 3
" For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 [a]By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets [c]in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. "

There was no church in the Old Testament. There was the nation of Israel under the Mosaic Covenant, which they violated. The word in Greek used to speak of Israel is translated as assembly/gathering/congregation. Church is not the prominent definition, though it is one of the words it can be translated to. In Hebrew, there is, unlike Greek, a separate word used for church. Greek does not have a separate word.

Well, I think you should re-read the Abrahamic covenant, I believe you're missing out on a lot, or you're just denying it.

Genesis 15
"17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your [t]descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”"

Genesis 17
"6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your [f]descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your [g]descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your [h]descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

[This is an ethnic covenant. There is no salvation here. The actual covenant is next here]

9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your [j]descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your [k]descendants. 13 A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

[Again, this covenant is ethnic. It is NOT salvific.]

15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but [l]Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will [m]come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” 19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name [n]Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his [o]descendants after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall [p]become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” 22 When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham."

Now, there are promises God made outside of the covenants. The one Gentiles care about is the one that says that in Abraham's seed [singular], all the nations of the world will be blessed. The one Paul said is the gospel given to Abraham. Abraham probably did not understand it, since in Ephesians Paul said that the inclusion of Gentiles had not been made known to any man until Paul's time.

You should see, the Abrahamic covenant extends to all believers, not just ethnic Jews. And this is through faith in Christ, who is the promised "seed" that brings blessing to all nations. If you would rather not do the work yourself, I can and will point out the scriptures that teach Gentiles are grafted into this covenant through faith. Thereby, inheriting promises as Abraham's spiritual descendants rather than through physical lineage.

This is a problem of eisegesis vs. exigesis. God made a promise with Abraham (not a covenant), after Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. It is that promise that Paul speaks of in relation to the uncircumcised being able to be saved by faith.

"15 Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your [e]seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your [f]seed shall possess the gate of [g]their enemies. 18 In your [h]seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba."

This is the promise. It is not the Abrahamic covenant. This is what Paul uses in Romans 4 in speaking of justification by faith for the circumcised and the uncircumcised.

As for Romans 11 with the tree that Gentiles are grafted into... that is NOT the Abrahamic covenant. It is the NEW covenant in Jesus blood that is a replacement for the flawed Mosaic covenant. The Jews who are in it are the disciples, and those Jews who believed in Christ from the beginning. The Gentiles are foreign branches who are grafted in. (God made the new covenant with the Jews only, but by His kindness and mercy, extended it to the Gentiles after the Jews rejected the Messiah.) Those Gentiles can be cut off if they do not continue in the kindness of God. The Jews were removed by God's severity. Why severity? They are His chosen people, living on His kindness, and they rejected His Messiah. So they are cut off. However, if they return in belief, God will reattach them. No such contingency is mentioned for Gentiles.

This is the important passage at the end;
"30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

For just as you [Gentiles] were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [Israel/Jews] disobedience, so these [Israel/Jews] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [Israel/Jews] also may be shown mercy.

This is how God has chosen to save His elect people of the Jews and the Gentiles. This is the circle. Gentiles disobedient, Jews rejected the Messiah [their disobedience], God shows mercy and Gentiles can be/are saved, Jews are still disobedient that God may show His wayward people the same mercy He showed to the Gentiles, and they will be saved.

I do suggest, though, you do the work and see for yourself.

I have done work. It will never be completed, as there is a lot to it.

 

[TMSO]

@TMSO

Hoping these may help.

He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4:11-12.

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. Gal 3:16.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29.

That does not speak to Israel or the church, but speaks to (Romans 4) the justification by faith of both the circumcised and the uncircumcised. So, can you point out in Galatians 3:29 where it says one is heir according to... covenant? Genesis 22 is a promise. The covenants are mentioned in Genesis 12 (circumcision) and Genesis 15 (land promise).