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'Church', never mentioned in the OT but 111 times in the NT. Why?

I would offer not all Israel is Israel.

Not all of Israel are called out or born again .

Some remained after Jacob to represent the unredeemed

God changed her name to Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations. Not all Christians like Israel are called out ones.
Yes, I agree, except with you last words. If somebody is called out by God, that person is a Christian. That is why in Revelation we read:

“And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,” (Re 5:9 NKJV)

If somebody has been redeemed by Jesus Christ, that person is a Christian.
 
Yes, I agree, except with you last words. If somebody is called out by God, that person is a Christian. That is why in Revelation we read:

“And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,” (Re 5:9 NKJV)

If somebody has been redeemed by Jesus Christ, that person is a Christian.
I would offer.

Most doctrines of Christ the spiritual unseen seed are established in Genesis.

When God revealed that dying mankind must be born again using. Abel the second born.

Cain the first murder. . .murdered the martyr Abel in order to emphasize a man must be born again. Christ gave another second born to replace born again Abel .Just like all sons of God born again from above .

Then born again men could answer the call .. . . . . not one second beforehand

The gospel seed (spiritual invisible Christ) that power was passed down to another second born ending at the birth of the Son of man Jesus.

The shadow becoming sight

Genesis4: 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Marvel not a dying mankind must be born again.

Marveling ,wondering, limbo leads to death

Believers have prophecy .

Satan the king of Gender dysphoria would make it all one in the same. also the king of identity theft .

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Signs and wonders are not prophecy.

True prohecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder in limbo?
 
I would offer.

Most doctrines of Christ the spiritual unseen seed are established in Genesis.

When God revealed that dying mankind must be born again using. Abel the second born.

Cain the first murder. . .murdered the martyr Abel in order to emphasize a man must be born again. Christ gave another second born to replace born again Abel .Just like all sons of God born again from above .
The fact that Abel was the second born of Adam's children does not refer to his being born again. Being born again is necessary whatever our position in the family by our natural birth.
Then born again men could answer the call .. . . . . not one second beforehand

The gospel seed (spiritual invisible Christ) that power was passed down to another second born ending at the birth of the Son of man Jesus.

The shadow becoming sight

Genesis4: 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Marvel not a dying mankind must be born again.

Marveling ,wondering, limbo leads to death

Believers have prophecy .

Satan the king of Gender dysphoria would make it all one in the same. also the king of identity theft .

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Signs and wonders are not prophecy.

True prohecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder in limbo?
I don't see what gender dysphoria and identity theft have to do with the need to be born again, except as examples of the sinfulness of man.
 
The fact that Abel was the second born of Adam's children does not refer to his being born again. Being born again is necessary whatever our position in the family by our natural birth.

I don't see what gender dysphoria and identity theft have to do with the need to be born again, except as examples of the sinfulness of man.

Hi David thanks. I have a brother-in- law named David and lost a brother before I was born named David .Fell off a bridge two years old

I would offer

The born again doctrine has its roots with Cain and Abel. Cain meaning "acquired possession". He failed to represent the gospel. Setting up the second born again doctrine .The first in Cain failed to show "It is by the expectations' of dying mankind" and not the unseen power of the gospel .

Cain meaning "acquired possession". .Adam and Eve thought Cain would lead them back in the garden , The second born Abel meaning Vanity . They realized it would be by faith the unseen power of Christ and might not see it in their lifetime .

Gender dysphoria and identity theft. Democrat's seduced by the father of lies using tax money to equip boys bathrooms with tampons' in case they desire to identify playing childish imagination games. I am a girl, now I am a boy.. now a cat (Lying wonders) the children's transformer "more than meets the eye" .

The government teaching children how to use their imagination and direct them to thier transgender ideology the new alphabet LBTQIA + and growing . Children are born with a imagination. Children today on the Job teaching the teacher how to be childish. Like living out their childhood they never had .caling it trans education .More than what meets the eyes

Tower of Babble Tower of identify theft Satan the king of lying sign to wonder after His only voice. lie, lie, lie.

the king of lying sign to wonder after working over time

The movement offering sex change to illegal's immigrates (crooks in prison.) Tip of the iceberg . Gnosticism denying faith as it is written
 
I will try to do that:

You say that it doesn't answer the question, but surely it does. "Church" means "called out ones", and if in the Old Testament, God's people were, on the whole, one nation, Israel, not like the New Testament church, which consists of individuals called out of every nation, there was not so much need in the Old Testament for the word "church", because Israel was a nation, not called-out individuals.
Wasn't Israel called out of Egypt?...

Hosea 11:1 KJV
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Also, the whole book of Exodus.
 
Have you done a word search for ecclesia in all its conjugations?
It's of little help...
qāhāl: (which is closer to sunagōgḗ) A masculine noun meaning an assembly, a community, a congregation, a crowd, a company, a throng, a mob
ékklētos-0
ekkaléō-0
ekklētoí-0
etc. etc.
 
It's of little help...
qāhāl: (which is closer to sunagōgḗ) A masculine noun meaning an assembly, a community, a congregation, a crowd, a company, a throng, a mob
ékklētos-0
ekkaléō-0
ekklētoí-0
Whether of little help or great help the point is proven. There is a direct correlation between the qahal in the OT and the ecclesia in the NT, and that correlation is not solely doctrinal. The Jews themselves perceived.

Now..... perhaps they perceived it in ignorance. Perhaps the correlation is a product of providence, God using history to make that connection as His word is translated in various languages. Perhaps this correlation is more overt and direct providence and God has once again communicated something only the unveiled can and will see while others remain blinded and blind even as their own conduct bears witness to Christ. I make no specific claims about that. What I do know is through the word "assembly," or "qahal," the Church is mentioned in the OT and this is supported and supplemented when all the attributes of the assembly and Israel are subsequently assigned or attributed to the body of Christ, the Church. It gets a little messy when the word "Israel," is employed because 1) Israel is defined at least five different ways in the whole of scripture (or are the really completely different? :unsure:), and 2) not all Israel is Israel. Recognizing the correlation between the assembly and the called-out avoids much of that (and might actually aid in a whole-scripture definition of the word "Israel." 🤨

Just saying.








Btw, thanks for hanging in there with me. I don't usually answer questions with questions, but it seemed to be the best play at the time.
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It gets a little messy when the word "Israel," is employed because 1) Israel is defined at least five different ways in the whole of scripture (or are the really completely different? :unsure:), and 2) not all Israel is Israel.
Let me add to the 'messiness'..."It gets a little messy when the word "the Church," is employed because 1) The Church is defined at least x- different ways in the whole of scripture (or are they really completely different? ), and 2) not all the Church is the Church."

IOW, what's good for the goose is good for the gander (depending on one's definition of gosling).
 
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And that is giving the OT an approximate 66% handicap.
Sure it was, it just wasn't titled the Church, it was Israel.
 
Let me add to the 'messiness'..."It gets a little messy when the word "the Church," is employed because 1) The Church is defined at least x- different ways in the whole of scripture (or are they really completely different? ), and 2) not all the Church is the Church."

IOW, what's good for the goose is good for the gander (depending on one's definition of gosling).
I'm not I'm correctly understanding the point.

  • The word "church," or ecclesia, transliterally means simply "called out". Denotatively, that is what the word means. Yes?
  • Connotatively, the word, "ecclesia," or "church," means those called out of the world into service to God through Christ. Yes?
  • Those are the generally accepted definitions of the Church, regardless of (orthodox) theological orientation. Yes?
  • Dispensationalists, for example, hold to that definition BUT they define Israel differently, not the Church differently. Yes? (if there is a theology that defines the Church differently then I would be interested in reading that noted. Just name it; I'll do my own investigation)
  • The Church may be defined alternatively as "the body of Christ," the "saints," or any of the qualifiers found in the greetings of the epistolary (for example), but the word "ecclesia means those who are "called out." Yes?
  • There are many people sitting in any given congregation that are not among those who are called out, but the scriptures do not call them the Church, the ecclesia. Yes?
  • Post-scriptural usages of the word "church" may include buildings or people that do not believe in Christ, people who take up space in a pew, and institutionalized religion, or some other entities but scripture does not call any of them the ecclesia. Yes?

That's not what happens with the word "Israel."

When I said, "It gets a little messy when the word 'Israel,' is employed because....." I meant there are five ways scripture defines the word, not five different ways people or theologies extra-scripturally-scripturally define the word. So maybe I've assumed something I shouldn't have but before I address that and speak to the many definitions of Israel, are the above bullet points correct and, either way, what am I missing? Clarify Post 29 for me, please. What are the multiple ways scripture defines the word ecclesia?
 
Sure it was, it just wasn't titled the Church, it was Israel.
That's been the point of this thread, how/why did it go from 'Israel' to the 'Church'?
 
  • The word "church," or ecclesia, transliterally means simply "called out". Denotatively, that is what the word means. Yes?
  • Connotatively, the word, "ecclesia," or "church," means those called out of the world into service to God through Christ. Yes?
  • Those are the generally accepted definitions of the Church, regardless of (orthodox) theological orientation. Yes?
  • Dispensationalists, for example, hold to that definition BUT they define Israel differently, not the Church differently. Yes? (if there is a theology that defines the Church differently then I would be interested in reading that noted. Just name it; I'll do my own investigation)
  • The Church may be defined alternatively as "the body of Christ," the "saints," or any of the qualifiers found in the greetings of the epistolary (for example), but the word "ecclesia means those who are "called out." Yes?
  • There are many people sitting in any given congregation that are not among those who are called out, but the scriptures do not call them the Church, the ecclesia. Yes?
  • Post-scriptural usages of the word "church" may include buildings or people that do not believe in Christ, people who take up space in a pew, and institutionalized religion, or some other entities but scripture does not call any of them the ecclesia. Yes?
Yes.
When I said, "It gets a little messy when the word 'Israel,' is employed because....." I meant there are five ways scripture defines the word, not five different ways people or theologies extra-scripturally-scripturally define the word. So maybe I've assumed something I shouldn't have but before I address that and speak to the many definitions of Israel, are the above bullet points correct and, either way, what am I missing? Clarify Post 29 for me, please. What are the multiple ways scripture defines the word ecclesia?
In post #29, I simply swapped out what you said about Israel and swapped it out with'the Church' capping it off with "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" meaning what holds for one holds to the other.
 
Wasn't Israel called out of Egypt?...

Hosea 11:1 KJV
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Also, the whole book of Exodus.
Yes it was, but it was the whole nation of Israel, not individuals from all nations, as the New Testament church is.
 
Let me add to the 'messiness'..."It gets a little messy when the word "the Church," is employed because 1) The Church is defined at least x- different ways in the whole of scripture (or are they really completely different? ), and 2) not all the Church is the Church."

IOW, what's good for the goose is good for the gander (depending on one's definition of gosling).

I would offer God is not a racist. He is not a man .

.Follow the doctrine of the seed Christ.. the unseen glory of God

Mankind must be born again from above . Not a new testament principle by which some beleive the church began at Pentecost and not that he retuned at the time of the first century reformation.

Many teach there was no 1st century reformation under sola scriptura. All things written in the Law and Prophets,

Not all Israel are born again Israel .In the same way not all that name the name Christian are born again. Not as if the living word/seed of God had no effect.

God is not a racist . Its never about the flesh of dying mankind . A wile of the evil one.

We are instructed to compare the spiritual understanding hid in parables to the same .In that way without parables Christ's seed working in us the teacher spoke not.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob,(deceiver) but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

As Jacob the deceiver (dead in ones trespass and sin previously he had no power coming from Gods' faithful labor of love.

The word Israel has a born again meaning in respect to the spiritual seed Christ introduced in Genies 4.

The teaching anointing seed Christ that works in believers to both give us His understanding and power to do it to the good pleasure of the seed

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, (Jacob) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed (born again) were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; (dying flesh and blood.) but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Satan murdered the first prophet, apostle, martyr. Abel the first second born. he was needed to set up the doctrine a person must be born again . The first birth leads to death . God replaced him

Then and not before they were born again as previous dead in trespasses and sin Born agin they could call out to Him not seen

Genesis 4: 25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

From Enos the seed Christ was passed down to another second born. Cain seeing no interest in the spiritual unseen eternal things of the seed Christ . Pased in on to Onan who had no value in the invisible things of Christ .he spilled the seed . Esau in the same way no spiritual value sold his first born rights for a cup of hairy goat soup .

The seed (Christ) was passed down the Abram another second born . renaming him a born again Abraham signifying the Father of all the nations of the world .

Establishing the geanalolgy of the generation( beginning) of the born again seed (Christ ). Luke ending with the first born again from above. Seth the birth of the Son of man. . end of geanalolgy of the second born. God's first born of many sons of God

Luke 3:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham the second born )begat Isaac;( second born ) and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Luke 3: 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Previous Jacob meaning the deceiver. One that grasp the heel of another 1st born . Second born seed to represent Christ in us passed on from Abel in Genesis.

Hosea 12:2-4King James Version The Lord hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel ( Satan not giving up the the first born Cain dead in trespasses and sin) in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
 
In post #29, I simply swapped out what you said about Israel and swapped it out with'the Church' capping it off with "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" meaning what holds for one holds to the other.
I understood. I took no offense with the attempt, and my reply was not intended to return any offense, only to clarify the matter.
Amen!

Then we can conclude, while the actual word, "church" or "those called out" is not found explicitly stated in the OT there are those who are called out by God, those called out of the world into His service, throughout the Old Testament. The question then remains, were those people called out in service to God..... through Christ? My answer to that would be that if all we had was the Old Testament we would likely answer that question in the negative, but the New Testament gives us information about the Old Testament people who were called out that leads us to answer the question in the affirmative. Many come to mind, but I will cite only two. The first is the remarkable claim by Paul the gospel was preached to Abraham, and the second is the author of Hebrews' declaration all the Old Testament people of faith are made complete in "us" (the Church).

Galatians 3:6-9
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Can a person have the gospel preached to them, believe, have faith and act faithfully in accordance with the promise of a future seed that is Christ..... and not be a member of the Church, the ecclesia, those called out by God into His service through His Son? According to Paul in the rest of that passage, all the Gentiles who have faith are blessed with Abraham and heirs to all the same promises.

Hebrews 11:1-3, 39-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible............... [and then a bunch of people are named] ...............And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They did not receive what was promised because they would be made complete in us, those that author calls those to whom God had spoken through His Son, the heir of all things (Heb. 1:2), those who would inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14). Therefore, we can reasonably conclude the gospel was preached in the Old Testament, a select few did believe God (and His promises) and act in faith accordingly and those exact same attributes are what comprise the saints. While the "institution" of the Church (and I mean that solely as a group of people organized as described in the New Testament, and not any post-scriptural definition) may not have been existent in the OT, the ecclesia, those "called out" did exist. I would even go so far as to say the history recorded in scripture is God's report of His creating, gradually building, and eventual establishment of the Church as Christ's body that began at least as far back as Seth (Gen. 4). To be fully forthcoming, I would argue the Church began before the foundation of the world, according to 1 Peter 1:20.

1 Peter 1:20-21
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

According to Paul, Abraham would qualify as someone who through Christ believed in God, even though Christ would not be revealed until those last days in which Peter was writing. Hints of people earlier than Abraham exist, such as Enoch's walking with God or Noah being said to be the one who "will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed" 🤨, and a latter OT example would be David's awareness the promised throne was not a physical chair but the resurrection (assuming he understood what God was promising).

Acts 2:29-32
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

It seems fundamentally inconsistent to me to acknowledge a Christology exists in the Old Testament, but no one in the OT understood it (or believed it), especially in light of the NT's report. Even Moses, who was not permitted entrance into the promised land is with Jesus at the transfiguration. How'd that happen?

Hebrews 11:23-26
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

It's pretty amazing stuff.









Btw, I didn't have all this well-articulated in my thoughts until we had this conversation so thanks for the opportunity.
.
 
I understood. I took no offense with the attempt, and my reply was not intended to return any offense, only to clarify the matter.

Amen!

Then we can conclude, while the actual word, "church" or "those called out" is not found explicitly stated in the OT there are those who are called out by God, those called out of the world into His service, throughout the Old Testament. The question then remains, were those people called out in service to God..... through Christ? My answer to that would be that if all we had was the Old Testament we would likely answer that question in the negative, but the New Testament gives us information about the Old Testament people who were called out that leads us to answer the question in the affirmative. Many come to mind, but I will cite only two. The first is the remarkable claim by Paul the gospel was preached to Abraham, and the second is the author of Hebrews' declaration all the Old Testament people of faith are made complete in "us" (the Church).

Galatians 3:6-9
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Can a person have the gospel preached to them, believe, have faith and act faithfully in accordance with the promise of a future seed that is Christ..... and not be a member of the Church, the ecclesia, those called out by God into His service through His Son? According to Paul in the rest of that passage, all the Gentiles who have faith are blessed with Abraham and heirs to all the same promises.

Hebrews 11:1-3, 39-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible............... [and then a bunch of people are named] ...............And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They did not receive what was promised because they would be made complete in us, those that author calls those to whom God had spoken through His Son, the heir of all things (Heb. 1:2), those who would inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14). Therefore, we can reasonably conclude the gospel was preached in the Old Testament, a select few did believe God (and His promises) and act in faith accordingly and those exact same attributes are what comprise the saints. While the "institution" of the Church (and I mean that solely as a group of people organized as described in the New Testament, and not any post-scriptural definition) may not have been existent in the OT, the ecclesia, those "called out" did exist. I would even go so far as to say the history recorded in scripture is God's report of His creating, gradually building, and eventual establishment of the Church as Christ's body that began at least as far back as Seth (Gen. 4). To be fully forthcoming, I would argue the Church began before the foundation of the world, according to 1 Peter 1:20.

1 Peter 1:20-21
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

According to Paul, Abraham would qualify as someone who through Christ believed in God, even though Christ would not be revealed until those last days in which Peter was writing. Hints of people earlier than Abraham exist, such as Enoch's walking with God or Noah being said to be the one who "will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed" 🤨, and a latter OT example would be David's awareness the promised throne was not a physical chair but the resurrection (assuming he understood what God was promising).

Acts 2:29-32
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

It seems fundamentally inconsistent to me to acknowledge a Christology exists in the Old Testament, but no one in the OT understood it (or believed it), especially in light of the NT's report. Even Moses, who was not permitted entrance into the promised land is with Jesus at the transfiguration. How'd that happen?

Hebrews 11:23-26
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

It's pretty amazing stuff.









Btw, I didn't have all this well-articulated in my thoughts until we had this conversation so thanks for the opportunity.
.
Touché.

I think my real question is if Israel=Church
*Why are there curses laid upon Israel for disobedience (Deut 28) and not the Church? (at least not to the same extent).
*Why has God earmarked and preserved the Jews even through persecutions over millennia, but not others?
*In the Church, we are all Priests unto God, whereas in Israel one had to be born a Levite.
*Church; we are sealed by His Spirit, Israel; no mention of that (to my knowledge) for Israel
*Israel, circumcision of males only/Church baptizes males and females.
*Israel-Saturday Sabbath; Church-everyday sabbath
*Israel-Law outward; Church-Law inward
(just some struggles I have when called upon to equate Israel with the Church.)
 
Touché.

I think my real question is if Israel=Church
*Why are there curses laid upon Israel for disobedience (Deut 28) and not the Church? (at least not to the same extent).
*Why has God earmarked and preserved the Jews even through persecutions over millennia, but not others?
*In the Church, we are all Priests unto God, whereas in Israel one had to be born a Levite.
*Church; we are sealed by His Spirit, Israel; no mention of that (to my knowledge) for Israel
*Israel, circumcision of males only/Church baptizes males and females.
*Israel-Saturday Sabbath; Church-everyday sabbath
*Israel-Law outward; Church-Law inward
(just some struggles I have when called upon to equate Israel with the Church.)
That first question is a GREAT one and the everlasting promises of destruction are a favorite point of mine when talking with Dispies. Unblessedly, I was called to dinner while typing that sentence, so I'll get back to you on those inquiries. I will say, before I go, I believe the correct answers lie in correctly identifying Israel because...... those Hebrews in Deuteronomy 28 were not yet a geo-political nation-state and the geo-political nation-state may not have been what was promised when God said He would make them a holy nation. Look to see when Israel first became a nation in scripture, and what did the word "Israel" mean before then.
 
Touché.

I think my real question is if Israel=Church
*Why are there curses laid upon Israel for disobedience (Deut 28) and not the Church? (at least not to the same extent).
Part 1:

Since the nation of Israel did not exist at the time of Dt. 28 the curses have nothing specifically to do with the later-occurring nation-state status. Neither should the promises and curses of that occasion be restricted to ethnicity (it wasn't only Hebrews who left Egypt to later enter the promised land. I will suggest there is a parallel between the blessings/curses promise in Dt. 28 and what Paul wrote in Galatians 6.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

That's just a stripped-down version of Deuteronomy 28. When the "Israel" of Dt. 28 is understood to be the "sons of Israel" (which is what they were called from Genesis 32 all the way through to the book of Joshua) and not the nation of Israel, we better understand what Paul was saying in Romans 4 and 8. The scripture passage is too large to quote in its entirety, but Paul asserts the promise of fathering many nations wasn't just "many nations," but the entire world.

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

That verse applies to the Deuteronomy 28 audience, not just the Church in Rome. This is reiterated in Romans 8 and in Galatians 3.

Galatians 3:23-29
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore, the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

The word "Israel" means "God perseveres." If we read that definition with every mention of "Israel" then Jacob has his name, his identity changes from "Heel Grabber" (or Grifter) to "God Perseveres." The sons of God perseveres were later enslaved in Egypt and after 400 years released because God perseveres, and the sons of God perseveres wandered the wilderness for forty years until God purged the sons of God perseveres of all those..... who lacked faith (see Hebrews 11), and according to Romans 14....

Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

This is supposed to be a purified group that is about to enter the promised land, but the reality is no different than the eight people God called and chose to save when He purged the entire world of sin. Those eight sinners are still sinful but God covenants with them anyway because His purpose(s) is not dependent on them, any more than God's purpose(s) is dependent on the audience of Deuteronomy 28. Their name is God perseveres, not people perseveres.

The sons of God are determined by faith, not faithfulness. Abraham was deemed righteous according to his faith, not his faithfulness (works). His faithfulness was a product of his faith. The same applies to the Dt. 28 audience, and the same standard applies to the Church. The Church is, after all, solely a product of God perseveres.

Romans 8:13-17
...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
I know this is redundant but.....
Hebrews 11:1-2, 39-40
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval................ [a bunch of people are listed] ........................And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

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All those people listed in Hebrews 11 (even the Gentiles) were God Perseveres and therefore sons of Israel. As far as Dt. 28 goes, not all Israel is Israel and those in the Dt. 28 audience that were the Israel that is Israel, or the Israel that is God Perseveres, were those that lived by faith. Faithless faithfulness (obedience of the flesh) merits nothing. Jacob, God Perseveres, was loved but Esau (which means "rough," "hairy," "maker," "doer," or "worker") was hated. The covenant is not based on works of the flesh but the promises and works of God, and those promises are reached through faith, not works.

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

ALL of what is said in Deuteronomy 28 is first couched in the covenant God initiated with Abraham. Without that covenant there'd be no Deuteronomy 28 audience, and there'd be no covenant with them. Furthermore, God is the initiator of the covenant(s) and He does not ask if the covenant participants want to be chosen, nor does He ask if they want to be chosen. He calls and chooses them, initiates a covenant with them and then commands them with an unyielding and unwavering expectation of obedience. That is what is happening in Dt. 28 and that is exactly what happens in the Christian's covenant with God through Christ. We did not ask to be chosen or called. God chose us, called us, and commanded us, and He commands us with an expectation of obedience. It is the purpose for which we were called.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The Deuteronomy 28 group was also created for good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to perform. The only difference is we have the privilege of being completed in Christ, or the Church, whereas they awaited the day when they would be made complete in us.

And there were a lot of poseurs among them...... just as there is in the Church. Not all who are the Church are the Church ;).

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

And we all know what happens to those who practice lawlessness. The list, in fact, is quite lengthy.....

Deuteronomy 28:15-24ff
But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. Cursed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock. Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it. The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron. The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed................


...but it can be summarized in a single sentence: the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Jacob was renamed God Perseveres. That is a name applied to Jesus, too.


It's late and I'm going to call it a night. I'll take up the rest of the questions tomorrow (or maybe Friday, depending on how my schedule permits).
 
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