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Christian, You have less than three months to get it right

Then why are we here 2000 years later? Why then are we not in the new heavens and earth and living in the new Jerusalem? If near and soon means what you say, then all the visions in the book would be finished! All things would be made new!

Doug

Hence the delay doctrine; 2 Peter 3 has answered all your questions. An accurate NT eschatology will always have two features: that the end of the world was indeed expected 'right after these things (the 1st cent. Judean calamity), and 2 that God decided to delay the final day of judgement.
 
Hence the delay doctrine; 2 Peter 3 has answered all your questions. An accurate NT eschatology will always have two features: that the end of the world was indeed expected 'right after these things (the 1st cent. Judean calamity), and 2 that God decided to delay the final day of judgement.

God doesn’t delay his work, everything has its time, and an omniscient God would not delay a perfect plan. To say he delayed a previous decision or plan, contrary to what he has already stated is to make God a liar and imperfect in judgement and knowledge!


Doug
 
God doesn’t delay his work, everything has its time, and an omniscient God would not delay a perfect plan. To say he delayed a previous decision or plan, contrary to what he has already stated is to make God a liar and imperfect in judgement and knowledge!


Doug


Not at all. He has done nothing contrary--except contrary to D'ists! (2 peoples, 2 programs). And Romans 13 is perfect about govs, it's in the US Constitution, too!

How could there be a lie when he said there are 4 possible times? Or a "perfect" plan when there's 4?
 
Not at all. He has done nothing contrary--except contrary to D'ists! (2 peoples, 2 programs).
Forgive my ignorance, but I’m not sure what your shorthand terms are supposed to mean.

And Romans 13 is perfect about govs, it's in the US Constitution, too!
I disagree with this interpretation. The first part of Romans 13 is not about the Government per se, but rather our response and obedience to our civil laws. It’s not about what government should do, it is about what we should do in relation to our governments.

Furthermore, this focus on our actions toward the government ends at verse 6, but the theme of our actions continues in verses 7-10 with “others” instead of the government as the point of reference.

So when we get to verses 11-14, we are removed from any direct reference to government, so there is nothing that supports your assertions about this being about the government praising Jesus.

How could there be a lie when he said there are 4 possible times? Or a "perfect" plan when there's 4?
Four different times? For what? There can only be one “Day of the Lord”; only one 42 months time of the beast and his prophet; only one point in time when he sends his angels to get us, and according to you, all of these are said to be “near” or “soon”.

God knows perfectly when and where everything will or has happened. He hasn’t delayed anything and if he has he didn’t tell us this in scripture, which shakes the very foundations of our faith! This is dangerous thinking!

Doug
 
Forgive my ignorance, but I’m not sure what your shorthand terms are supposed to mean.


I disagree with this interpretation. The first part of Romans 13 is not about the Government per se, but rather our response and obedience to our civil laws. It’s not about what government should do, it is about what we should do in relation to our governments.

Furthermore, this focus on our actions toward the government ends at verse 6, but the theme of our actions continues in verses 7-10 with “others” instead of the government as the point of reference.

So when we get to verses 11-14, we are removed from any direct reference to government, so there is nothing that supports your assertions about this being about the government praising Jesus.


Four different times? For what? There can only be one “Day of the Lord”; only one 42 months time of the beast and his prophet; only one point in time when he sends his angels to get us, and according to you, all of these are said to be “near” or “soon”.

God knows perfectly when and where everything will or has happened. He hasn’t delayed anything and if he has he didn’t tell us this in scripture, which shakes the very foundations of our faith! This is dangerous thinking!

Doug

D'ism is dispensationalism. Most people think it is exactly the Bible. It is quite off. The 2 peoples-2 programs doctrine has always been the mark of D'ism; it is a chapter in the Dallas prof Ryries' book defining D'ism. He called it the "sine qua non" (the one thing without which the thing is not distinct). You are probably aware of it, but on the affirmative, unquestioning side.

As Reformation scholars have shown, Rom 13 has three roots of freedom which the West has enjoyed against totalitarianism for maybe 5 centuries (since the Magdeburg Confession of 1550):
1, government is seen as a lowly domestic servant
2, the offices, but not the people in them, are ordained of God (there are some times in modern times when this is not even the case. Most reformers sought the smallest possible scope of government).
3, "good, right, evil" are used in the normal sense as defined by the Law. They are not twisted to accommodate totalitarianism.

Mk 13's parable of the 4 times means that there can be a delay (there has been) and that the 1st cent. Judean material is accomplished. That is true for the Revelation too, as the 1st page says (repeated throughout). There are good sources here at CCCF about the historic view; the last I saw was on the 2 witnesses. Try for ex., "Marty."

What John was trying to do was wrap up the 70th week in terms of the 1st cent. devastation, as far as the beast and the 42 months go. I encourage you to at least know what this research means.

As far as the unfolding 1st cent. and future, it means that those kinds of details have taken place in that generation, and then when you see the descriptions of the final day of judgement, it is very quick, even an hour. The Bible is not trying to describe modern times, although the 6th decade of the 1st cent. has echoes! If you think our times are bad, try some of the medieval periods where then was: the little ice age, the Bubonic plague, and the totalitarian Holy Roman Empire all at the same time! So long as organizations like Tacticalcivics.com keep growing, it is proof that we have a say in this unfolding.

All the best,
Marcus, writer, THE COVENANT REVOLT, at Amazon.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but I’m not sure what your shorthand terms are supposed to mean.


I disagree with this interpretation. The first part of Romans 13 is not about the Government per se, but rather our response and obedience to our civil laws. It’s not about what government should do, it is about what we should do in relation to our governments.

Furthermore, this focus on our actions toward the government ends at verse 6, but the theme of our actions continues in verses 7-10 with “others” instead of the government as the point of reference.

So when we get to verses 11-14, we are removed from any direct reference to government, so there is nothing that supports your assertions about this being about the government praising Jesus.


Four different times? For what? There can only be one “Day of the Lord”; only one 42 months time of the beast and his prophet; only one point in time when he sends his angels to get us, and according to you, all of these are said to be “near” or “soon”.

God knows perfectly when and where everything will or has happened. He hasn’t delayed anything and if he has he didn’t tell us this in scripture, which shakes the very foundations of our faith! This is dangerous thinking!

Doug

The day of the Lord was referenced in Acts 2 (Joel 2) because of the auspicious event of that generation. It was the generation of Israel that was supposed to reach all nations with Messiah's news; and using Gentiles to help in that mission if possible.

This a further proof that throughout the NT we find that the end of the world was indeed expected 'right after' (Mt 24:29) the destruction of Israel in that generation.

The fact that there has been a delay is both historic reality and is allowed for by a few passages. 2 Peter 3 was written specifically to answer questions about this. It says there has been a delay; it says why (grace of God); and it affirms there will be an end of this world. I don't know how it could be more clear. I also don't know how a person develops a Judaistic future and millenium once you know 2 Peter 3. Those things are absent.
 
The day of the Lord was referenced in Acts 2 (Joel 2) because of the auspicious event of that generation. It was the generation of Israel that was supposed to reach all nations with Messiah's news; and using Gentiles to help in that mission if possible.

This a further proof that throughout the NT we find that the end of the world was indeed expected 'right after' (Mt 24:29) the destruction of Israel in that generation.

The fact that there has been a delay is both historic reality and is allowed for by a few passages. 2 Peter 3 was written specifically to answer questions about this. It says there has been a delay; it says why (grace of God); and it affirms there will be an end of this world. I don't know how it could be more clear. I also don't know how a person develops a Judaistic future and millenium once you know 2 Peter 3. Those things are absent.
2 Pet 3:On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

No new heavens and earth, thus no Day of the Lord!


Doug
 
2 Pet 3:On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

No new heavens and earth, thus no Day of the Lord!


Doug
??? I don't know what you are saying. The Day of the Lord is a day of judgement; the NHNE come after. If you had turned your sentence around I could almost understand.

I don't think you are doing the exercise of placing the delay at 70 AD when the end of the world did not happen. The writers thought one way before that and another way after that.
 
??? I don't know what you are saying. The Day of the Lord is a day of judgement; the NHNE come after. If you had turned your sentence around I could almost understand.

I don't think you are doing the exercise of placing the delay at 70 AD when the end of the world did not happen. The writers thought one way before that and another way after that.
This only confirms my point that “near” does not necessarily mean a relatively short span of time. The Bible relates these events in a sequential order that is encompassed by the term near or soon. A two millennia “delay” is not near or soon.

Doug
 
This only confirms my point that “near” does not necessarily mean a relatively short span of time. The Bible relates these events in a sequential order that is encompassed by the term near or soon. A two millennia “delay” is not near or soon.

Doug

Ahh, but which events. Those in Mt24A are 1st cent. Judean-based. "wrath on the Jew, then on the Gentiles" (Rom 2). That way, they saw them as near, but a delay was allowed for the Final Day of Judgement of the world. And the millenium of Rev 20 is not strictly 1000 years, and has its martyrs who reign like Christ--who deserve honor. It is very long, like the expression 'he owns the cattle on 1000 hills.' It ends with a quick rescue of the believers and the destruction of the ungodly.

'takei' then has its normal sense of being upon them; suggesting John wrote it in the thick of the war.
 
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