Can We Determine the Age of the Universe and Earth Biblically?

[ChristB4us]

I am not here to speak for or against evolution - that is not my field.

I think it is very important for Christians who enter these discussions to do so with a good understanding of what the Bible does, and doesn't say, as I have seen too often over zealous Christians make claims that are not supported by Scripture or scientific evidence.

@makesends @Gus Bovona @Mikeuk

Okay then what does Genesis say about creation?

Genesis 1:1 is the topic with the following verses is how God did it.

Genesis 1:2-5 is the creation of light of the day for that evening and morning that first day. Time has been created. The earth was not there at all but just water.

Genesis 1:6-8 is the starting of the creation of earth of gravity by dividing the water planet from the upper atmosphere.

Genesis 1:9-13 is the completion of the creation of earth with the one large land mass and the sea all in one place on that third day.

Genesis 1:14--19 was when the universe was created as God created them to give her lights to govern the earth that fourth day

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

That means the universe was not there in the beginning until that fourth day for God spoke and they came into existence filling the gaps with her lights to shine on the earth that day.

So can you tell the age of the universe and the earth by the speed of light? No. You cannot when in respect to His words that they did not exist nor had her lights shine on that earth until that fourth day.

And regardless of how scriptures were not originally divided by numbered chapters 7 numbered verses, this creation account did not end until Genesis 2:3

So when you read from Genesis 1:1... that is why the following verses is about how God created everything in verse 1.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[ChristB4us]

With the genealogy in the Old Testament & the New Testament is why believers say that the earth and the universe is about 6,000 years old.

 

[Sereni-tea]

With the genealogy in the Old Testament & the New Testament is why believers say that the earth and the universe is about 6,000 years old.

You asked: Can we determine the age of the universe/earth biblically? The short answer is no, we can't.
Adding up the genealogies in the OT involves making assumptions that may or may not be valid. I believe it is not valid, but I'll get to that as well as answer your other post later in the day when I have more time.

 

[Sereni-tea]

@makesends @Gus Bovona @Mikeuk

Okay then what does Genesis say about creation?

Firstly, I want to point out that I absolutely believe that God is the Creator of all things - visible and invisible.

Genesis 1:1 is the topic with the following verses is how God did it.

Genesis 1:2-5 is the creation of light of the day for that evening and morning that first day. Time has been created. The earth was not there at all but just water.

How is time measured?
Notice carefully what the text says - God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
How can you have day without the sun? How can you have evening and morning?

Genesis 1:6-8 is the starting of the creation of earth of gravity by dividing the water planet from the upper atmosphere.

Genesis 1:9-13 is the completion of the creation of earth with the one large land mass and the sea all in one place on that third day.

Genesis 1:14--19 was when the universe was created as God created them to give her lights to govern the earth that fourth day

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

That means the universe was not there in the beginning until that fourth day for God spoke and they came into existence filling the gaps with her lights to shine on the earth that day.

Notice how the sun and moon are not named - they are simply referred to as the 'greater light' and the 'lesser light'. Why do you think that is?
Another thing I want you to notice in verse 14 is the word "firmament". Modern translations use words like "expanse" or "vault of the sky". But here, I think the KJV translation is more accurate. But tell me, what does "firmament" mean?

So can you tell the age of the universe and the earth by the speed of light? No. You cannot when in respect to His words that they did not exist nor had her lights shine on that earth until that fourth day.

So we need to think through all this very carefully. As I said elsewhere, the Word of God and His universe are not at odds with each other. We need to understand both correctly.

And regardless of how scriptures were not originally divided by numbered chapters 7 numbered verses, this creation account did not end until Genesis 2:3

You are correct.

So when you read from Genesis 1:1... that is why the following verses is about how God created everything in verse 1.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 is an amazing passage - so much theology packed into it. Notice what I said - the Bible is first and foremost a book about theology - it tells us about God and His relationship to us. It is not a scientific text book, nor is it a history book - though we do learn a lot about people and places and events that actually happened.

What I want you to understand before I go on is that reading this passage in a 'straight-forward' manner (by which I mean simply reading the words as they are written in English without any thought of genre, structure, purpose, etc.) - leads to a confusing narrative devoid of the theology that is being presented. It simply doesn't make sense like that. However if you look at it in its literary and cultural context, it comes alive and you see the wonder and glory of the Creator and Covenant God.

 

[ChristB4us]

Firstly, I want to point out that I absolutely believe that God is the Creator of all things - visible and invisible.

So you do not believe as science does that everything happened by random chance?

How is time measured?
Notice carefully what the text says - God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
How can you have day without the sun? How can you have evening and morning?

Would it behoove you to consider the weight of His words that what was created that first day by that light was time thus creating what that first day was and has been each day after that as a 24 hour day by how each day was ended with there was evening and morning each day?

Notice how the sun and moon are not named - they are simply referred to as the 'greater light' and the 'lesser light'. Why do you think that is?

To signify that they were not created until that fourth day along with the rest of the universe.

Another thing I want you to notice in verse 14 is the word "firmament". Modern translations use words like "expanse" or "vault of the sky". But here, I think the KJV translation is more accurate. But tell me, what does "firmament" mean?

That space or that place.

So we need to think through all this very carefully. As I said elsewhere, the Word of God and His universe are not at odds with each other. We need to understand both correctly.

When the universe did not exist until that fourth day for her lights to shine on that earth that fourth day for the purpose of governing for signs, and seasons, days and years, then that universe with her lights did not exist on day one nor day two nor day three when on day three was the earth completed in creation.

You are correct.

Glad in the Lord that you know & see that.

Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 is an amazing passage - so much theology packed into it. Notice what I said - the Bible is first and foremost a book about theology - it tells us about God and His relationship to us. It is not a scientific text book, nor is it a history book - though we do learn a lot about people and places and events that actually happened.

It is a history book in all respect. Many historians scoffed at the Bible for the places mentioned as never having existed until they had found it.

As for science, science did ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. They said the chicken in order to take care of the egg. So science can see the Intelligent Designer in all things when they remove the evolution theory spectacles for how they are looking at the "evidence".

What I want you to understand before I go on is that reading this passage in a 'straight-forward' manner (by which I mean simply reading the words as they are written in English without any thought of genre, structure, purpose, etc.) - leads to a confusing narrative devoid of the theology that is being presented. It simply doesn't make sense like that. However if you look at it in its literary and cultural context, it comes alive and you see the wonder and glory of the Creator and Covenant God.

Jesus Christ as the Son of God & Our Creator testified to the seventh day and to the first marriage, and to Noah regarding the Biblical flood which science denies. All of their dating methods are done by the faulty assumption that there had been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years. They are wrong. That is why they are not getting accurate dating results for the age of anything; not even for a "living" mollusks carbon dated as 2,300 years old "dead".

 

[ChristB4us]

You asked: Can we determine the age of the universe/earth biblically? The short answer is no, we can't.
Adding up the genealogies in the OT involves making assumptions that may or may not be valid. I believe it is not valid, but I'll get to that as well as answer your other post later in the day when I have more time.

@makesends @Gus Bovona @Mikeuk

How about this?

 

[Sereni-tea]

So you do not believe as science does that everything happened by random chance?

No, I do not believe that everything happened by random chance. God is the Creator. However that doesn't mean that science can't figure out something about the mechanism He used.

Would it behoove you to consider the weight of His words that what was created that first day by that light was time thus creating what that first day was and has been each day after that as a 24 hour day by how each day was ended with there was evening and morning each day?

What do you mean by 'light'? God called the 'light' day and the 'darkness' night. We know that day is when the sun is shining on our part of the world and night when it is not. But there was no sun or moon. If the 'plain' reading of Scripture matches science, then you need to explain how this is possible.

To signify that they were not created until that fourth day along with the rest of the universe.

That is one way to explain it. Another way might be to signify that they are part of creation as well. This would stand in direct contrast to other ancient cultures around them that worshipped the sun and moon.

That space or that place.

That is a bit vague. We need to look at the actual word used to ensure our understanding is correct. I'll come back to this because it is really important.

When the universe did not exist until that fourth day for her lights to shine on that earth that fourth day for the purpose of governing for signs, and seasons, days and years, then that universe with her lights did not exist on day one nor day two nor day three when on day three was the earth completed in creation.

Yes, on the 4th day we see God assigning functions to the sun, moon and stars.

Glad in the Lord that you know & see that.

It is a history book in all respect. Many historians scoffed at the Bible for the places mentioned as never having existed until they had found it.

As for science, science did ask what came first, the chicken or the egg. They said the chicken in order to take care of the egg. So science can see the Intelligent Designer in all things when they remove the evolution theory spectacles for how they are looking at the "evidence".

Yes, there is history in the Bible but it is primarily a book on theology.

Jesus Christ as the Son of God & Our Creator testified to the seventh day and to the first marriage, and to Noah regarding the Biblical flood which science denies. All of their dating methods are done by the faulty assumption that there had been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years. They are wrong. That is why they are not getting accurate dating results for the age of anything; not even for a "living" mollusks carbon dated as 2,300 years old "dead".

At this point we are not talking about the flood. We are only looking at the first chapter of Genesis.
Yes, Jesus mentioned all these things and we will need to look at that as well. But first, let's try to work out what the text is actually saying before trying to wrestle with anything else.

 

[Sereni-tea]

@makesends @Gus Bovona @Mikeuk

How about this?

Let me be perfectly clear about something before we move ahead. I am only interested in what the biblical text actually says. I believe that both the so called 'young earth creationists' and 'old earth creationists' make the same mistake but in different ways. The YEC group try to fit science into what they believe the Bible is saying (i.e. their literalistic reading of Genesis 1). The OEC group do the opposite - they try to fit the Bible into science. In doing so, they are both approaching the Scriptures with a modern mindset and looking for answers to the questions of today. This is where they make their mistake.

I believe the Bible doesn't say anything at all about how old the earth is and in this thread I will endeavour to show you why I came to that conclusion. In many ways, it doesn't matter to me whether you believe the earth is young or old, because in my view these are scientific questions, not addressed in the Bible. I just want to help you to read the passage correctly.

Having said that, however, I do believe the earth is old, and I struggle to see how all the things mentioned in the Bible can happen in a young earth timeframe. But that is an aside and not relevant to this discussion.

We need to let the Bible speak on its own terms. In doing so, we need to set aside our modern worldview, with its modern questions, and read the text as an ancient document, written to an ancient people, with their questions in mind.

 

[Sereni-tea]

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

So what about this word ‘firmament’. What is it? The Hebrew word rendered as ‘firmament’, ‘expanse’, ‘canopy’ or ‘vault of heaven’ in various translations is 'raqia' and means something like ‘that which is firmly hammered’. How does that fit with our modern idea of ‘space’?

Answer: It doesn’t.
In fact, it fits much better with the ancient Israelite cosmology, which believed that there was a 'solid dome' holding back the 'waters above the earth' from the ‘waters beneath’. It was on this 'dome' that they believed that the sun and moon and stars moved. Today, of course we know that there is no such thing. If you want to read the passage in a ‘straight-forward’ way, you are going to have to deal with this. This is difficult, if not impossible.

I suggest instead, that we go back to the beginning and simply allow the text to speak for itself, putting aside as much as possible our modern-day mindset with our modern-day questions, and focus instead on trying to work out what the original audience, the ancient Israelites, would have understood Genesis 1 to be telling them.

Let me ask you another question – what genre is this passage written in? This of course is one of the first questions you should ask when you come to any passage of Scripture. After all, you don’t read poetry the same way you read a parable, or narrative, or apocalyptic literature.

 

[ChristB4us]

No, I do not believe that everything happened by random chance. God is the Creator. However that doesn't mean that science can't figure out something about the mechanism He used.

Science cannot figure it out when they do not believe in the Biblical global flood for how they are determing everything on that faulty assumption that there has been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years to mess with their radiocarbon dating methods.

What do you mean by 'light'? God called the 'light' day and the 'darkness' night. We know that day is when the sun is shining on our part of the world and night when it is not. But there was no sun or moon. If the 'plain' reading of Scripture matches science, then you need to explain how this is possible.

God said "Let there be light" and that was the light that created the first day with the evening and morning, that first 24 hour day. Time was created by that first day.

That is one way to explain it. Another way might be to signify that they are part of creation as well. This would stand in direct contrast to other ancient cultures around them that worshipped the sun and moon.

May I remind you of this quote from the next reply you had given me?

Let me be perfectly clear about something before we move ahead. I am only interested in what the biblical text actually says.

Do not doubt what He says. Remember how the first creation account concluded in Genesis 2:1? for how God rested from creating everything from the topic stated in "Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." ?

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

That is a bit vague. We need to look at the actual word used to ensure our understanding is correct. I'll come back to this because it is really important.

I believe gravity was created that second day by separating the waters in creating the water planet from the upper atmosphere in the beginning of the creation of earth. So that space or that place is about as close as one can get to how firmament was used in the scripture.

Yes, on the 4th day we see God assigning functions to the sun, moon and stars.

Actually created the universe that fourth day whereby the lights filled in the gaps from the sources of those lights to shine on the earth that day.

Yes, there is history in the Bible but it is primarily a book on theology.

It is the truth about God and "His story" with man as in His relations with mankind. The ruins of Sodom & Gomorrah has been found. Marine fossils are found on mountaintops all over the world and far inland too. Jesus validated them both in Luke 17:26-37 KJV

At this point we are not talking about the flood. We are only looking at the first chapter of Genesis.
Yes, Jesus mentioned all these things and we will need to look at that as well. But first, let's try to work out what the text is actually saying before trying to wrestle with anything else.

Jesus confirmed what that 6th day of creation of man and woman meant for all future marriages as joined together by God.

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

God created marriage that sixth day and so there wasn't a bunch of cave men fornicating before they got the "religious idea" of having only one wife. I know you are not saying that but science is, when denying the Bible. If science was true, nobody would conjure up marriage at all for the way sinners are behaving today.

 

[ChristB4us]

Let me be perfectly clear about something before we move ahead. I am only interested in what the biblical text actually says. I believe that both the so called 'young earth creationists' and 'old earth creationists' make the same mistake but in different ways. The YEC group try to fit science into what they believe the Bible is saying (i.e. their literalistic reading of Genesis 1). The OEC group do the opposite - they try to fit the Bible into science. In doing so, they are both approaching the Scriptures with a modern mindset and looking for answers to the questions of today. This is where they make their mistake.

I believe the Bible doesn't say anything at all about how old the earth is and in this thread I will endeavour to show you why I came to that conclusion. In many ways, it doesn't matter to me whether you believe the earth is young or old, because in my view these are scientific questions, not addressed in the Bible. I just want to help you to read the passage correctly.

Jesus did by confirming the reason for the creation of the 7th day for man to rest in.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Course, you may only see this as stemming from Judaism and not every mankind on earth but then again, where did we get our 7 days a week from that all the world still abides by?

Having said that, however, I do believe the earth is old, and I struggle to see how all the things mentioned in the Bible can happen in a young earth timeframe. But that is an aside and not relevant to this discussion.

Science made the faulty assumption that there has been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years for why they believe their radiocarbon dating methods are reliable. They are way off. So how can they determine the age of the universe when the global Biblical flood had happened?

Plus the Bible says mankind and living things and even plant life were created as mature.

Since God created the universe that fourth day and filled in the lights from all those distant sources to shine on that earth that fourth day, we cannot tell how old the universe is by the speed of light. As for the age of the earth... what standard can they actually use to determine that age? They are assuming "what" at the beginning to ascertain the rate of decay but they do not know what was present at the beginning that there weren't already some descendent particles from the parent particles which would throw off their dating method; not to mention the global flood.

We need to let the Bible speak on its own terms. In doing so, we need to set aside our modern worldview, with its modern questions, and read the text as an ancient document, written to an ancient people, with their questions in mind.

We need to set that false science, the evolution theory, aside and believe the Bible for what it actually says.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Science cannot figure it out when they do not believe in the Biblical global flood for how they are determing everything on that faulty assumption that there has been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years to mess with their radiocarbon dating methods.

I'm not talking about science here at all; I'm talking about what the Bible says.

God said "Let there be light" and that was the light that created the first day with the evening and morning, that first 24 hour day. Time was created by that first day.

You might be right about time, but time is not light, so what is the light that is called day?

May I remind you of this quote from the next reply you had given me?

Sure.

Do not doubt what He says. Remember how the first creation account concluded in Genesis 2:1? for how God rested from creating everything from the topic stated in "Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." ?

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I don't doubt God's Word at all; I am seeking to understand it correctly.

I believe gravity was created that second day by separating the waters in creating the water planet from the upper atmosphere in the beginning of the creation of earth. So that space or that place is about as close as one can get to how firmament was used in the scripture.

Gravity is an interesting idea, however what did the ancient Israelites know about gravity? And does it really explain the meaning of the Hebrew word as I wrote in post#9 - which you didn't address by the way?

Actually created the universe that fourth day whereby the lights filled in the gaps from the sources of those lights to shine on the earth that day.

Okay... but how does that fit with day 1 where light way created?

It is the truth about God and "His story" with man as in His relations with mankind. The ruins of Sodom & Gomorrah has been found. Marine fossils are found on mountaintops all over the world and far inland too. Jesus validated them both in Luke 17:26-37 KJV

Yes, it is God's story and yes, it is about His relationship with mankind. I agree with this completely. The rest of what you have written here is not relevant to our discussion. We are not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, or about the flood. Let's stay focussed.

Jesus confirmed what that 6th day of creation of man and woman meant for all future marriages as joined together by God.

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

God created marriage that sixth day and so there wasn't a bunch of cave men fornicating before they got the "religious idea" of having only one wife. I know you are not saying that but science is, when denying the Bible. If science was true, nobody would conjure up marriage at all for the way sinners are behaving today.

I agree about God giving us marriage, but I disagree that this is what is day 6 is about. For me, the importance is in mankind being made in the image of God.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Jesus did by confirming the reason for the creation of the 7th day for man to rest in.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Course, you may only see this as stemming from Judaism and not every mankind on earth but then again, where did we get our 7 days a week from that all the world still abides by?

On the 7th day God rested and this is the pattern for us to follow. But do you know what rest here means? It is about God taking up His rule and enjoying His creation.

Science made the faulty assumption that there has been no global calamity within the last 55,000 years for why they believe their radiocarbon dating methods are reliable. They are way off. So how can they determine the age of the universe when the global Biblical flood had happened?

Plus the Bible says mankind and living things and even plant life were created as mature.

Since God created the universe that fourth day and filled in the lights from all those distant sources to shine on that earth that fourth day, we cannot tell how old the universe is by the speed of light. As for the age of the earth... what standard can they actually use to determine that age? They are assuming "what" at the beginning to ascertain the rate of decay but they do not know what was present at the beginning that there weren't already some descendent particles from the parent particles which would throw off their dating method; not to mention the global flood.

We need to set that false science, the evolution theory, aside and believe the Bible for what it actually says.

Okay ... slow down. Again, we are not talking about science; not radio-dating, not evolution, not even the speed of light. None of this is mentioned in the Biblical text and that is what we are looking at.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Did God create the earth ( and the universe it floats within ) and all it's creatures mature so that life could be abundant from the get go?

If so...how would you date it?

The Bible gives 7 days to create and then some time passes with men begetting...but few pause to ponder the fact that all creation was created ready to be fruitful.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Did God create the earth ( and the universe it floats within ) and all it's creatures mature so that life could be abundant from the get go?

If so...how would you date it?

The Bible gives 7 days to create and then some time passes with men begetting...but few pause to ponder the fact that all creation was created ready to be fruitful.

I think reading the passage in Genesis1:1-2:3 in a material/mechanistic way is misreading the passage as it was originally intended. I believe that the passage is telling us theology, not science.

 

[ChristB4us]

I'm not talking about science here at all; I'm talking about what the Bible says.

But are you reading it with that view from science or as it is written? Just wondering if you were applying what you know about science as you were reading the scripture rather than just as it is written?

You might be right about time, but time is not light, so what is the light that is called day?

I'd say that was Jesus speaking a word in creation for that light that shines in the darkness in creating time as that first day. By the word He speaks, He lights everything to life.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Sure.
I don't doubt God's Word at all; I am seeking to understand it correctly.

aside from that false science the evolution theory, we have to prove everything that is taught in the church with His help by the scriptures too..

Gravity is an interesting idea, however what did the ancient Israelites know about gravity? And does it really explain the meaning of the Hebrew word as I wrote in post#9 - which you didn't address by the way?

Well I did but you seem to think that space or that place was vague. If God is dividing the water that was there in separating it from one firmament from another hence a water planet, one place in its own space, and the other firmament the upper atmosphere which is another place or that space, I am not sure how else to explain it as I understand it to mean.

Okay... but how does that fit with day 1 where light way created?

Jesus speaking that light into existence in calling that light good was Him creating the first day by its evening and morning that day.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

That was the whole point for that light was to designate what day is and what the darkness was as night. Thus toime was created that first day.

Yes, it is God's story and yes, it is about His relationship with mankind. I agree with this completely. The rest of what you have written here is not relevant to our discussion. We are not talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, or about the flood. Let's stay focussed.

I agree about God giving us marriage, but I disagree that this is what is day 6 is about. For me, the importance is in mankind being made in the image of God.

Then by recognizing what that first day was as the beginning of time and the earth was not created yet until its completion on the third day and neither the universe until the fourth day, then we can see the conclusion of God creating the heavens and the earth from verse 1 in Genesis 2:1-3.

 

[Sereni-tea]

But are you reading it with that view from science or as it is written? Just wondering if you were applying what you know about science as you were reading the scripture rather than just as it is written?

I thought I had made it very clear that what I am trying to do is read the text in its originial literary and cultural context, not from the view point of science at all. In fact I am very deliberately putting all science aside so that I can let the text speak for itself and not read into it any of my own biases. Are you doing the same?

I'd say that was Jesus speaking a word in creation for that light that shines in the darkness in creating time as that first day. By the word He speaks, He lights everything to life.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

How does this relate to the passage in Genesis at all? Are you saying that Jesus, as the Word of God is day? Because that is what the author of Genesis says - he called the light day and the darkness night. Does that mean that the Word of God was absent at night?
Believe it or not, but what you are doing is trying to fit your own views into the text.

aside from that false science the evolution theory, we have to prove everything that is taught in the church with His help by the scriptures too..

Yes, so prove what you are saying by Scripture. Taking verses out of context is not going to help. And you are the one that keeps trying to bring science and evolution into this - not me.

Well I did but you seem to think that space or that place was vague. If God is dividing the water that was there in separating it from one firmament from another hence a water planet, one place in its own space, and the other firmament the upper atmosphere which is another place or that space, I am not sure how else to explain it as I understand it to mean.

Jesus speaking that light into existence in calling that light good was Him creating the first day by its evening and morning that day.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

That was the whole point for that light was to designate what day is and what the darkness was as night. Thus toime was created that first day.

Then by recognizing what that first day was as the beginning of time and the earth was not created yet until its completion on the third day and neither the universe until the fourth day, then we can see the conclusion of God creating the heavens and the earth from verse 1 in Genesis 2:1-3.

Actually no, you didn't respond to post#9, have another look. In any case I will ask my question to you again:
What genre is Genesis 1:1-2:3 written is - what is the literary context? Is it narrative, history, poetry, parable, gospel, apololyptic, something else? This is an important question to ask any biblical text when you are trying to understand it because you read them each differently.

 

[ChristB4us]

I thought I had made it very clear that what I am trying to do is read the text in its originial literary and cultural context, not from the view point of science at all. In fact I am very deliberately putting all science aside so that I can let the text speak for itself and not read into it any of my own biases. Are you doing the same?

Hopefully.

I reckon that cultural context is what I am concern about because some of that cultural context has been influenced by the evolution theory as it does pervade through out our educational system. Example is how one KJV Bible has in its footnotes that the Biblical scholars believed that the behemoth was an elephant, or a hippo, or an alligator and neither of them has a tail like a cedar which is a tree.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

The thing about this verse 17 is that science only recently discovered that the sexual organs of a dinosaur are internal and yet the latter half of verse 17 already testified to that scientific fact as well as what science ignored in how this behemoth was made with man to know that their calculating the age of fossilized bones are way off.

Anyway, your cultural context may also be influenced by how they see the culture at the time through a tainted lens as far as understanding the Bible in respect to what has been understood or "believed" by educators for that time period and for the reading of the Bible.

How does this relate to the passage in Genesis at all? Are you saying that Jesus, as the Word of God is day? Because that is what the author of Genesis says - he called the light day and the darkness night. Does that mean that the Word of God was absent at night?
Believe it or not, but what you are doing is trying to fit your own views into the text.

Jesus is the Creator that lights everything that came into existence and so when He said "Let there be Light" that was Him creating the first day as He divided the first day by that light as designating that light as day and the darkness as night for that first day by the evening & morning that day.

Yes, so prove what you are saying by Scripture. Taking verses out of context is not going to help. And you are the one that keeps trying to bring science and evolution into this - not me.

It is that cultural context that you are applying is why I keep referring to that pervasive evolution theory in every field of education even though you may not see it that way.

Actually no, you didn't respond to post#9, have another look. In any case I will ask my question to you again:
What genre is Genesis 1:1-2:3 written is - what is the literary context? Is it narrative, history, poetry, parable, gospel, apololyptic, something else? This is an important question to ask any biblical text when you are trying to understand it because you read them each differently.

And there is your educated cultural context at work in how you are reading the Bible, right? Wisdom comes from the Lord; not from our obviously tainted education.

 

[Sereni-tea]

And there is your educated cultural context at work in how you are reading the Bible, right? Wisdom comes from the Lord; not from our obviously tainted education.

I really appreciate your efforts and your willingness to discuss this with me becuase I think it is so important. The opening chapters of Genesis set the scene for the entire Bible.
Yes, wisdom comes from the Lord. And it is not our scientific wisdom that is going to help us understand this properly. It is our literary and historical wisdom that is going to help. And this may not be totally correct. Our knowledge of course is imperfect. But God knows and is the One who will lead us in the right direction if we approach it prayerfully. But if we set aside the wisdom and knowledge that He has given us in this area, then we are not honouring Him as we should.

Literary genre of a passage matters. You don't read the Psalms the same way you read the Gospels. You don't read Proverbs the same way you read Revelation. And the same book may have different genres within it - for example a historical account as well as a song. So it is important to look at each passage and work out its genre to provide you with more information how best to read it.

 

[ChristB4us]

I really appreciate your efforts and your willingness to discuss this with me becuase I think it is so important. The opening chapters of Genesis set the scene for the entire Bible.
Yes, wisdom comes from the Lord. And it is not our scientific wisdom that is going to help us understand this properly. It is our literary and historical wisdom that is going to help. And this may not be totally correct. Our knowledge of course is imperfect. But God knows and is the One who will lead us in the right direction if we approach it prayerfully. But if we set aside the wisdom and knowledge that He has given us in this area, then we are not honouring Him as we should.

Literary genre of a passage matters. You don't read the Psalms the same way you read the Gospels. You don't read Proverbs the same way you read Revelation. And the same book may have different genres within it - for example a historical account as well as a song. So it is important to look at each passage and work out its genre to provide you with more information how best to read it.

I generally look for the truth in His words by His grace & by His help. He provides the answers I seek; He will do the same for you when you trust Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd & Friend also to help you to understand the "meat" of His words as kept by those who loved Him and His words in the KJV.

In any discussion, be it with me or someone else, always hope in the Lord to confirm or reprove ALL things by the truth in His words.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.