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Can the very elect be deceived?

Good point. The verse does not specify what specifically they are deceived about. We all get some of our doctrine 'screwed up' (deceived). i.e. baptism by full immersion or sprinkling, eschatology ...

We all get some of our doctrine 'screwed up' (deceived). i.e. baptism by full immersion or sprinkling, eschatology ...

Now that is something to muse on.


The verse does not specify what specifically they are deceived about.
Matthew 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Without getting into eschatology on the verse in context, perhaps verse 23 interprets verse 24 here.

False Christ, those that come and claim to be Christ.

Personally, I cannot see any elect being deceived by someone claiming to be Christ.

But there are multitudes that are self-deceived and are clueless.

Didn't Jim Jones claim to be Christ?

Apologies, my mind started wandering off topic.
 
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These are interesting responses. The reason I ask:

Matthew 24:24
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Does not the "if" imply it is not possible to deceive the elect? Why include the "if it were possible"? Do you think Jesus is making a rhetorical or a theological argument?

Do you understand how influential a person's eschatology is answering this op's inquiry? Any reader of Matthew 24 who takes literally and takes seriously Jesus' statement all the events described will occur "in this generation" necessarily understand the only elect being alluded to are those elect living in that generation. Alternatively, any reader who either ignores the "this generation" marker, or who changes its meaning to "that generation that sees these things," is going to think Jesus is referring to an elect of some future time when those events occur. The eschatological Idealist, will, instead, see this as a comment that might apply to any elect at any time because the principles cycle or replicate throughout human history.

Perhaps more importantly...... we should never isolate one single verse, neglect all its surrounding text and make some kind of doctrinal statement based on the singled-out verse. That is always bad exegesis. Jesus explicitly stated the days of all that mess he described would be cut short. Why? For the sake of the elect, that's why. So I ask you (and any others) why God would cut short the days for the sake of the elect if the elect were at risk? Is the thinking God cut short the days because the elect might be at risk? Why then would Jesus say, "if it were possible"? To be consistent with a real risk he should say, "insomuch that it is possible for the elect to be deceived to follow a false Messiah and be destroyed by the coming events I describe." Jesus is talking to the eleven!!! When Jesus states, "Do not believe anyone who claims to be me," he is talking to people who have followed him around the country for three years, eating and sleeping, changing clothes, sharing a common purse, listening to every word Jesus has spoken. That is the inalterable context for Jesus saying, "if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ..." Those eleven men do not yet know it but very soon every single one of them would abandon Jesus, feel the guilt and shame of doing so, and then see him resurrected so profoundly that on one occasion he appears so physically that they were allowed to put their hands in his wounds.

How many false messiahs do you think walked around preaching with gaping wounds in their hands, feet, and sides? How many false messiahs were that committed to their falsehoods? How many false messiahs crazy enough to mutilate themselves to legitimize their falsehoods do you think taught sound Godly truth?

NEVER base your thinking, doctrine, or practice on one verse alone.
.
These are interesting responses. The reason I ask:

Matthew 24:24
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Great question, so let me take another approach; another approach just a firmly couched in sound scriptural exegesis as my comments above.

@Rescued One, can you find me a place in the New Testament, where scripture explicitly reports any member of the elect was deceived into following a false messiah? How about an elect explicitly reported to have lost his or her salvation? Aside from the argument from silence nature of my question and the unavoidable speculative nature of any answer..... why do you think New Testament scripture fails to provide even one explicit example of such an occurrence?

This next suggestion and inquiry will take some time to perform so please don't feel any need to respond immediately (or at all). Reading through the New Testament, where might we find actual explicit mention of false Christs and false prophets? Christs and prophets are not the same thing. There are many prophets in the Bible but only one Jesus. There are many anointed people, people anointed by God for the purpose of teaching and preaching, but there is only one Anointed One, only one Messiah, only one Christ. Where then does the New Testament identify the false prophets? Where then does the New Testament identify the false Christs? Once identified..... upon what basis in scripture would we say any of them were among the elect?

Here's the rub with what you'll find: In order for a person to (falsely) claim he (or she? :unsure:) is the Christ, he would have to either deny Jesus is the Christ or claim he is Jesus. Remember we are talking about people Jesus warned the eleven against. Jesus was not speaking directly to you or me. He was speaking to the small group of disciples gathered on the Mount of Olives that evening overlooking the temple right after Jesus had just lambasted the Pharisees. None of the eleven were going to by Bert's, Ernie's, Ricky's or Lucy's claim to be Jesus - especially if they did not have gaping wounds in their bodies. They most definitely were not going to be deceived by someone who....

  • Denied the Father and the Son,
  • Taught Jesus is not the Christ,
  • Taught Jesus did not come from God,
  • Taught Jesus did not come in the flesh.

What does scripture call those who claim such things? Antichrists!!! How then can an antichrist deceive the eleven elect who saw Jesus face-to-face before and after the grave into thinking he, the false Christ, is the Christ?


Being in a cult is not, necessarily, the same thing as being deceived into believing a false messiah (read those parts about the Local Church)...... and the larger truth of the matter regarding falsehood is that every single poster in this forum has heard/read false teaching. It is only by the grace of God and His work in us that we are not still deceived, and the more we prayerfully mine His word the more deceit will be removed from our knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.
 
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False Christ, those that come and claim to be Christ.


Perhaps Christ is simply in the context of people who come in the Name of God claiming to be annointed of God?

That's highly common actually

Also, back when they really were expecting Christ's return at any moment - 2000 years later we don't have the same feeling that Christ would return any minute which they would have had... So if someone said Christ has returned they were more likely to have gone running out of their home to see.

(We of course are more likely to laugh in the same scenario).

Those are two of my own musings. Ultimately to me it just means even the elect should be careful, but of course will ultimately come out of any deceived state they find themselves in.
 
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Does not the "if" imply it is not possible to deceive the elect? Why include the "if it were possible"? Do you think Jesus is making a rhetorical or a theological argument?

Do you understand how influential a person's eschatology is answering this op's inquiry? Any reader of Matthew 24 who takes literally and takes seriously Jesus' statement all the events described will occur "in this generation" necessarily understand the only elect being alluded to are those elect living in that generation. Alternatively, any reader who either ignores the "this generation" marker, or who changes its meaning to "that generation that sees these things," is going to think Jesus is referring to an elect of some future time when those events occur. The eschatological Idealist, will, instead, see this as a comment that might apply to any elect at any time because the principles cycle or replicate throughout human history.

Perhaps more importantly...... we should never isolate one single verse, neglect all its surrounding text and make some kind of doctrinal statement based on the singled-out verse. That is always bad exegesis. Jesus explicitly stated the days of all that mess he described would be cut short. Why? For the sake of the elect, that's why. So I ask you (and any others) why God would cut short the days for the sake of the elect if the elect were at risk? Is the thinking God cut short the days because the elect might be at risk? Why then would Jesus say, "if it were possible"? To be consistent with a real risk he should say, "insomuch that it is possible for the elect to be deceived to follow a false Messiah and be destroyed by the coming events I describe." Jesus is talking to the eleven!!! When Jesus states, "Do not believe anyone who claims to be me," he is talking to people who have followed him around the country for three years, eating and sleeping, changing clothes, sharing a common purse, listening to every word Jesus has spoken. That is the inalterable context for Jesus saying, "if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ..." Those eleven men do not yet know it but very soon every single one of them would abandon Jesus, feel the guilt and shame of doing so, and then see him resurrected so profoundly that on one occasion he appears so physically that they were allowed to put their hands in his wounds.

How many false messiahs do you think walked around preaching with gaping wounds in their hands, feet, and sides? How many false messiahs were that committed to their falsehoods? How many false messiahs crazy enough to mutilate themselves to legitimize their falsehoods do you think taught sound Godly truth?

NEVER base your thinking, doctrine, or practice on one verse alone.
.

Great question, so let me take another approach; another approach just a firmly couched in sound scriptural exegesis as my comments above.

@Rescued One, can you find me a place in the New Testament, where scripture explicitly reports any member of the elect was deceived into following a false messiah? How about an elect explicitly reported to have lost his or her salvation? Aside from the argument from silence nature of my question and the unavoidable speculative nature of any answer..... why do you think New Testament scripture fails to provide even one explicit example of such an occurrence?

This next suggestion and inquiry will take some time to perform so please don't feel any need to respond immediately (or at all). Reading through the New Testament, where might we find actual explicit mention of false Christs and false prophets? Christs and prophets are not the same thing. There are many prophets in the Bible but only one Jesus. There are many anointed people, people anointed by God for the purpose of teaching and preaching, but there is only one Anointed One, only one Messiah, only one Christ. Where then does the New Testament identify the false prophets? Where then does the New Testament identify the false Christs? Once identified..... upon what basis in scripture would we say any of them were among the elect?

Here's the rub with what you'll find: In order for a person to (falsely) claim he (or she? :unsure:) is the Christ, he would have to either deny Jesus is the Christ or claim he is Jesus. Remember we are talking about people Jesus warned the eleven against. Jesus was not speaking directly to you or me. He was speaking to the small group of disciples gathered on the Mount of Olives that evening overlooking the temple right after Jesus had just lambasted the Pharisees. None of the eleven were going to by Bert's, Ernie's, Ricky's or Lucy's claim to be Jesus - especially if they did not have gaping wounds in their bodies. They most definitely were not going to be deceived by someone who....

  • Denied the Father and the Son,
  • Taught Jesus is not the Christ,
  • Taught Jesus did not come from God,
  • Taught Jesus did not come in the flesh.

What does scripture call those who claim such things? Antichrists!!! How then can an antichrist deceive the eleven elect who saw Jesus face-to-face before and after the grave into thinking he, the false Christ, is the Christ?


Being in a cult is not, necessarily, the same thing as being deceived into believing a false messiah (read those parts about the Local Church)...... and the larger truth of the matter regarding falsehood is that every single poster in this forum has heard/read false teaching. It is only by the grace of God and His work in us that we are not still deceived, and the more we prayerfully mine His word the more deceit will be removed from our knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

Let me say I truly appreciate your time and effort with this response. For 12 years I was in a cult that taught many lies. It was like being in a desert without water. Looking back on those years, I know God was telling me something was very wrong, but I kept waiting for a conviction that it was true. The worst memories are not feeling as if I was praying to God. So in light of John 10, I wonder was I elect before that time, or only afterwards when I truly accepted the Triune God and realized that I was saved by His Son? IT WAS A DISGUSTING RELIGION.
 
Let me say I truly appreciate your time and effort with this response. For 12 years I was in a cult that taught many lies. It was like being in a desert without water. Looking back on those years, I know God was telling me something was very wrong, but I kept waiting for a conviction that it was true. The worst memories are not feeling as if I was praying to God. So in light of John 10, I wonder was I elect before that time, or only afterwards when I truly accepted the Triune God and realized that I was saved by His Son? IT WAS A DISGUSTING RELIGION.
Do you mind telling us what the cult was. I grew up in one too. Christian Science.

But yes, you were elect always. But you had not yet come to Christ. You were rescued from the cult because you were elect.
 
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Let me say I truly appreciate your time and effort with this response. For 12 years I was in a cult that taught many lies. It was like being in a desert without water. Looking back on those years, I know God was telling me something was very wrong, but I kept waiting for a conviction that it was true. The worst memories are not feeling as if I was praying to God. So in light of John 10, I wonder was I elect before that time, or only afterwards when I truly accepted the Triune God and realized that I was saved by His Son? IT WAS A DISGUSTING RELIGION.
Being an elect, you were chosen by God the Father before the foundation of the world.
 
Let me say I truly appreciate your time and effort with this response. For 12 years I was in a cult that taught many lies. It was like being in a desert without water. Looking back on those years, I know God was telling me something was very wrong, but I kept waiting for a conviction that it was true. The worst memories are not feeling as if I was praying to God. So in light of John 10, I wonder was I elect before that time, or only afterwards when I truly accepted the Triune God and realized that I was saved by His Son? IT WAS A DISGUSTING RELIGION.
Were you a Christian before becoming a participant in that cult?
 
Were you a Christian before becoming a participant in that cult?
No, but one of my stepfathers told me that that the Bible my mother gave me was the word of God. I believed him and sometimes beginning at age nine read parts of the Bible. I think my stepfather told her to buy a Bible for my older sister and me. My sister never read hers. I was gullible about joining the cult because no relatives that I knew were Christians, but I wanted to belong to a church.
 
Do you mind telling us what the cult was. I grew up in one too. Christian Science.

But yes, you were elect always. But you had not yet come to Christ. You were rescued from the cult because you were elect.
i think I'll postpone naming it. Maybe I'll reveal it someday, but for now I'd like to avoid discussing it.
 
That explains a lot of the incidences that God arranged in my life even in the anti-christian home environment.
Amen! Since you were chosen by Him before the foundations of the world, you have always been precious to Him. It's His divine providence that has seen you along the way and through so many things that could have happened to you.
 
No, but one of my stepfathers told me that that the Bible my mother gave me was the word of God. I believed him and sometimes beginning at age nine read parts of the Bible. I think my stepfather told her to buy a Bible for my older sister and me. My sister never read hers. I was gullible about joining the cult because no relatives that I knew were Christians, but I wanted to belong to a church.


We all came from something, happy to have you as a sister in Christ.

God's glory is beyond amazing, the pinnacle of which we see in Christ, with the testimony of Him in our bodies... It's just amazing!

It's been lovely to hear your testimony...
 
No, but one of my stepfathers told me that that the Bible my mother gave me was the word of God. I believed him and sometimes beginning at age nine read parts of the Bible. I think my stepfather told her to buy a Bible for my older sister and me. My sister never read hers. I was gullible about joining the cult because no relatives that I knew were Christians, but I wanted to belong to a church.
Thanks for that. I asked because if you were a believer before the cult then you'd stand as a testimony to TULIP's "P" and the elect's limited ability to be deceived. I was a Christian before finding myself in the Local Church and I credit God at work in me with provoking me to recognize the error of their teaching.... and, therefore, a small witness to the "P". My conversion was somewhat similar to Paul's so it's not something easily denied. How can God rend the fabric of time and space and manifestly demonstrate His presence..... and then later I fall prey to cult deception?

The truth is it was a dame 🤫. Curvy brunette who played jazz piano and liked punk clubs on the weekends. "Hey, wanna come to church with me handsome Christian guy?" I followed her right to the cult 😬😬😬😬. Blessed thing I read my Bible diligently - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
 
Thanks for that. I asked because if you were a believer before the cult then you'd stand as a testimony to TULIP's "P" and the elect's limited ability to be deceived. I was a Christian before finding myself in the Local Church and I credit God at work in me with provoking me to recognize the error of their teaching.... and, therefore, a small witness to the "P". My conversion was somewhat similar to Paul's so it's not something easily denied. How can God rend the fabric of time and space and manifestly demonstrate His presence..... and then later I fall prey to cult deception?

The truth is it was a dame 🤫. Curvy brunette who played jazz piano and liked punk clubs on the weekends. "Hey, wanna come to church with me handsome Christian guy?" I followed her right to the cult 😬😬😬😬. Blessed thing I read my Bible diligently - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
2 TIM. 3:16 is a quote I frequently use! Love it!
 
Can the very elect be deceived? I wonder.

The intent of these great signs and wonders was "to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

If possible. Which is a rhetorical way of saying "not possible."


I was deceived before I finally realized I was in a cult. When did I become an elect?

God's elect were chosen by him before the foundation of the world. That is when they became elect.

And then, all over the world and at various points throughout history, they were each born and, at a time that was just right for each, they were called by God and born again. In other words, they were God's elect for their entire lives, even long before they came to believe. And it was a divine appointment in God's perfect timing when the Holy Spirit brought them to new life and these elect became believers.


I was in my thirties.

That was the age at which he called me, too. I was an atheist for 33 years before coming to the faith.
 
@Hazelelponi

No. Ultimately not. Jesus will lose none, we can be sure of this promise.

Correct, ultimately not, since before conversion all the elect are deceived by nature Titus 3:3

3 For we[believers/elect] ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But we can have assurance they will not stay deceived Matt 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Even if after conversion they are led astray by false doctrine, be sure they shall be recovered by God granting them repentance 2 Tim 2:24-26


24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
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The intent of these great signs and wonders was "to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

If possible. Which is a rhetorical way of saying "not possible."




God's elect were chosen by him before the foundation of the world. That is when they became elect.

And then, all over the world and at various points throughout history, they were each born and, at a time that was just right for each, they were called by God and born again. In other words, they were God's elect for their entire lives, even long before they came to believe. And it was a divine appointment in God's perfect timing when the Holy Spirit brought them to new life and these elect became believers.




That was the age at which he called me, too. I was an atheist for 33 years before coming to the faith.
Thank you. That makes sense to me.
 
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