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Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

You use the word faith. I would use the word belief. They had no faith in God.. they may have believed. but their faith was dead.
James uses the word faith., not me. So when you change it to your own definition of belief, you are changing the Bible. You have made a distinction between faith and belief that does not exist in the passage and didn't even bother to define that distinction. You have added your presuppositional views to the word of God---also known as eisegesis.
How did those people you say took their eisegesis too far, take it to far?
 
Here is the rest of it that, you purposely left out in order to say that I proved your point.



The quote from me is what you are disagreeing with here. Do you disagree because it does not fit with what you have chosen to believe? Or is there some objective reason why you say it is incorrect? Simply saying you disagree is meaningless. No meat, no word.

This is downright egregious. It is not surprising to see it being done on a regular basis as the same thing is done in supporting the false beliefs being presented. Removing what I have said from it context to present my being in agreement with you, when you know full well that I am not. The same thing is done with God's word by removing sections from their context.

So here is the context of of my statement.


It has nothing to do with seeing the word as I do. Or with repenting of your faith and come to my faith, whatever that is intended to mean. It is simple fact that if someones understanding to Scripture is grounded on the absolute sovereignty of God, even in election, because they see the principle throughout Scripture, and it is consistent with the actual meaning of Sovereign; and if they or a particular theology (in this case Reformed theology) are not complacent in their attempt to make certain that what they believe, or how they interpret a scripture, is never contradicted elsewhere in Scripture, but keeps the teachings consistent with one another just as the Bible does; if all that exists, then it is bound to more align with what God means, than it will with one who is randomly finding scriptures and interpreting them to agree with a presupposition of prevenient grace. Prevenient grace in the theological debate over effectual grace, it is said to be the grace of God given to individuals (all without exception) that releases them from their bondage to sin (total depravity) and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man.

I, and many others of the Reformed camp, have had many, many, debates over this, over many years, and yet not one single person of the prevenient grace persuasion has proven their assumption. In order to attempt to do so, things are added to scriptures that are not there, and much of the whole of Scripture is never dealt with----not even when it is presented and the contradiction exposed.

My purpose in even engaging with you in this, is for your great benefit. In the hope that you will learn the importance of rightly handling the word of God and gain the knowledge of God that cannot be gained when one does not keep God's self revelation in mind when teaching what is no more than their subjective truth. The ability to do this has been stolen from the people of God in ever increasing measure since the 19th century, with the spreading of the idea of prevenient grace. For a long time, certainly with your lifetime and mine and I am much older than you, it is practically the exclusive teaching in congregations. Even though it was soundly condemned during the Reformation. The Catholic church even at that time, was teaching a form of prevenient grace and still does.

But all I can do is put these things before you. Only God can open your eyes and mind to receive it. I was exactly where you are for the first 23 years of my now 40 plus years of being in Christ. I had not so much as heard of Reformed theology or of any of its teachings. But I knew something was off, something was missing, and that something was hearing from the pulpit actual teaching about God. I did not know exactly what I meant by that but I knew I was thirsty. The very minute the teachings of Reformed theology were presented to me, I knew, that was what I thirsted for. Systematic, always consistent teaching about God, and all interpretations of scriptures consistent with who he is and consistent with one another. And it is as someone said, "No one gets it unless God gives it to them." So I can take no credit at all. I argued with that statement of God giving it to us by saying "But he does give it to us! In his word." I think perhaps we have to really desire his truth above all else, and he will open the eyes that have been blinded to it doctrinally and theologically, by the modern church. And even if we are satisfied with what we have, we can still go before him and tell him that we want to want, to know truth and to know him.

Blessings.
I am done. Good day.
 
James uses the word faith., not me. So when you change it to your own definition of belief, you are changing the Bible. You have made a distinction between faith and belief that does not exist in the passage and didn't even bother to define that distinction. You have added your presuppositional views to the word of God---also known as eisegesis.
James used the word they Claimed they had faith

then he asked if that 'claimed: faith could save them

just because someone claims they have faith. does not mean they have it

If they had real faith. they would have worked.


How did those people you say took their eisegesis too far, take it to far?
what???
 
it still begs the issue

if payment was made. "the elect" as you say, is already saved. there is no need of anything

Sin was paid on the cross. But something had to happen for that payment to be applied.. what happened.
Why wouldnt it be the good news of their salvation ? Thats what the Gospel is the elect, the good news of their Salvation in Christ Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Wouldnt you want to know that you have been saved ? Wouldnt that be good news to find out your sins have been forgiven ? Wouldnt it great to find out thy sins were forgiven at the Cross, wouldnt that be an occasion to bless the Lord for His saving electing grace ?
 
Why wouldnt it be the good news of their salvation ? Thats what the Gospel is the elect, the good news of their Salvation in Christ Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Wouldnt you want to know that you have been saved ? Wouldnt that be good news to find out your sins have been forgiven ? Wouldnt it great to find out thy sins were forgiven at the Cross, wouldnt that be an occasion to bless the Lord for His saving electing grace ?
yes

they heard. they believed after they heard. and they were sealed. because they were then regenerated

The application of grace was not applied until they heard and believed
 
How can I be regenerated when the wrath of god abides on me because of unbelief?
How can you believe when you are dead in sin? Regeneration is being made alive. God in his mercy made you alive while you were dead. Not after your faith made you alive. He declares that to be so. Why don't you believe it? It is because we are spiritually dead due to our sins that we have need of being made alive. First. But regeneration is not in a vacuum. It includes the necessary faith through which we are saved. Look at it this way: "I was blind, but now I see! I was lost, but now I am found."

Do you not believe in total depravity and original sin? Pelagianism does not. Condemned as heresy at the Council of Carthage in 418

Semi-Pelagianism does believe in original sin and Total Depravity ----that even the will was affected by the fall. but it asserts that humans still have the power to choose God and turn towards him. Grace is necessary, but human beings take the initiative to seek and respond to that grace. His grace helps and cooperates with humans effort in salvation. Condemned as heresy by the Council of Orange in 529.

Classic Arminianism. Taught election based on foreseen faith, universal atonement, partial depravity, resistible grace. Today, there are various subtractions and additions and a variety of views, but predominantly a form of prevenient grace exists. It acknowledges original sin and Total Depravity but claims the grace provided at the cross is given to everyone without exception, in effect making them not dead in sin any longer but only sick. Like semi-Pelagianism it teaches that grace is necessary to the extent of making everyone able to choose to believe or reject the gospel. In any case this doctrinal posisiton was also condemned at the Synod of Dort held between Nov of 1618 through May of 1619. The five points of the Armenian Remonstrance were rejected as hersey and and the five points of Calvinism adopted.

Whichever form or combination of them that you are presenting, it was recognized as heretical to what the Bible teaches, over 400 years ago.

marinij.com/2012/08/04/tulip-the-five-biblical-elements-of-the-doctrine-of-salvation/
 
How can you believe when you are dead in sin?
Because God drew me to himself. Proved himself faithful. Used the HS, His creation, His word and his power to bring me to the point of faith.

and I responded

Not because he made me alive while I was still dead because of sin.
 
yes

they heard. they believed after they heard. and they were sealed. because they were then regenerated

The application of grace was not applied until they heard and believed
They were already saved when they hear about their Salvation. How could it be their Salvation if they didnt have possession of it, if they weren't saved ? The word your as in your salvation is genitive of possession. If someone unknowingly to you, purchased you a car, it was in your name title and all, and just so happen you needed a car for your family, then someone comes to you and say hey, I have good news for you, you reply, really what is it ? The messenger says, you see that nice brand new suv outside in front of your house ? Well its yours, its in your name, here is the title, now would not that be good news ? You didn't work for it, you didn't earn it, but its legally yours. Now it was yours b4 you knew about it and came into experiential possession of it. Now wasnt that good news ? That was the gospel of your new car. Same with Salvation and the Gospel
 
Because God drew me to himself. Proved himself faithful. Used the HS, His creation, His word and his power to bring me to the point of faith.

and I responded

Not because he made me alive while I was still dead because of sin.
And your faith made you alive? Or God responded to your faith and made you alive?

I rest my case. That is man contributing to his salvation and God responding to man. You can say it isn't ten ways to Sunday, but it is. And you cannot prove that what you say is scripturally true. You can read into the scriptures, presume on and into the scriptures, mishandle the word of God to try and prove it; create contradictions with the presumptions and presupposition and not care as though it is not important. But none of that will convince anyone who has done the work necessary to prove otherwise. And none of it will make what you say the same thing as what God says---IN HIS WORD.
 
And your faith made you alive?
No. Gods grace made me alive

But i have told you think numerous times already. so you should understand that
Or God responded to your faith and made you alive?
Or God offered it to me, and I took it.

Just like anyone offers others a gifts. and they take it. or they say no thank you
I rest my case.
That is man contributing to his salvation and God responding to man. You can say it isn't ten ways to Sunday, but it is. And you cannot prove that what you say is scripturally true. You can read into the scriptures, presume on and into the scriptures, mishandle the word of God to try and prove it; create contradictions with the presumptions and presupposition and not care as though it is not important. But none of that will convince anyone who has done the work necessary to prove otherwise. And none of it will make what you say the same thing as what God says---IN HIS WORD.
I am done
 
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