Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Carbon]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

No, because faith in the heart of the elect is produced by God—in the context of, but not by, the preaching of the word.

Regeneration is not caused by the preaching of the word, as if the word had inherent power apart from the Spirit, nor is it triggered by a decision of the human will upon hearing the word (cf. John 1:12-13). The preaching of the word is made effectual, not by the power of the preacher, nor the power of the word itself, but by the inward operation of the Holy Spirit.

The external call of the gospel by itself does not (and cannot) produce faith in the heart of unregenerate man.

If faith is the result of the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity.

Or divine receptivity.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Or a God that can help him understand what he is hearing.

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

It does not say Man is unknowing romans 1 says he know only knows. He hides the truth, so he is accountably

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

Again, Without Gods help He can’t

 

[Carbon]

Or a God that can help him understand what he is hearing.

Then wouldn't the natural man still have the issue of not being able to (appraise) understand spiritual things?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then wouldn't the natural man still have the issue of not being able to (appraise) understand spiritual things?

Not without God’s help no

A natural man, can not understand the things of God. And he will not be able to understand them

But we are told he already understands God. That they are rightly condemned, and thus are without exuse

All God has to do is convince them he is trustworthy once he is saved, then God will help him understand doctrines and things of God they need to know to Grow

 

[Carbon]

All God has to do is convince them he is trustworthy once he is saved, then God will help him understand doctrines and things of God they need to know to Grow

Thanks for the explanation.

But it leaves me curious about how God convinces them that He is trustworthy?

 

[makesends]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

There is an almost humorous side to this, by way of a serious riddle or pun, play on words--or something. Jesus Christ is the message, the messenger, and the content of the message, for his own sake. There may well be no such thing as "the external call of the gospel by itself".

Chat GPT may be able to pump out an amazingly lucent doctrine, and maybe even an astonishing presentation of the Gospel, but it is clueless. If that is all that "external call" means, no, it cannot produce faith in the fallen man.

 

[ReverendRV]

There is an almost humorous side to this, by way of a serious riddle or pun, play on words--or something. Jesus Christ is the message, the messenger, and the content of the message, for his own sake. There may well be no such thing as "the external call of the gospel by itself".

Chat GPT may be able to pump out an amazingly lucent doctrine, and maybe even an astonishing presentation of the Gospel, but it is clueless. If that is all that "external call" means, no, it cannot produce faith in the fallen man.

I think the Parable of the Soils has the answer; only the Good Soil receives the internal Call. The Rocky, Weedy and Trodden Soils receive the Outward Call for sure..

The type Christian I am, settles things wham bam...

Fundamentalism and it's Method of coming to conclusions, has made things pretty easy...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thanks for the explanation.

But it leaves me curious about how God convinces them that He is trustworthy?

I would ask, is he not capable of doing this?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I think the Parable of the Soils has the answer; only the Good Soil receives the internal Call. The Rocky, Weedy and Trodden Soils receive the Outward Call for sure..

The type Christian I am, settles things wham bam...

Fundamentalism and it's Method of coming to conclusions, has made things pretty easy...

I see it only one group had faith

The rest did not belief fully and the truth was easily taken away

 

[ReverendRV]

I see it only one group had faith

The rest did not belief fully and the truth was easily taken away

The reason it's not the Gift of Faith, is because Jesus said if the Trodden Soil had Believed, he would have had to Save it. So all faith is not equal. The Weedy and Rocky Soils receive the Gospel without the Gift of Faith, just with their Fallen Intellect. The Trodden Soil is Dead. It can't receive the Gospel through it's Intellect. The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation, not the Intelect. If the birds didn't carry away the Gospel, it would have germinated in the dead Soil. This Soil was like the Fallen hearts of Adam and Eve. God had the Tree of Life, the Gospel, carried off; lest they take of its Fruit and live forever...


Calvinism adds up...

 

[Carbon]

I would ask, is he not capable of doing this?

Well, thats probably one of the best ways to avoid answering. Okay, thanks.

 

[Eleanor]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

Hearing the gospel does not produce faith.

The sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) produces faith in the gospel, apart from which one is spiritually dead, deaf, blind and helpless.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The reason it's not the Gift of Faith, is because Jesus said if the Trodden Soil had Believed, he would have had to Save it. So all faith is not equal. The Weedy and Rocky Soils receive the Gospel without the Gift of Faith, just with their Fallen Intellect. The Trodden Soil is Dead. It can't receive the Gospel through it's Intellect. The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation, not the Intelect. If the birds didn't carry away the Gospel, it would have germinated in the dead Soil. This Soil was like the Fallen hearts of Adam and Eve. God had the Tree of Life, the Gospel, carried off; lest they take of its Fruit and live forever...


Calvinism adds up...

I disagree

Jesus shows 4 reactions to the truth.

Only one actually trusted the message and were saved.

The others believed for awhile. Or had mere belief. But the belief did not take root.. and was easily taken away

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, thats probably one of the best ways to avoid answering. Okay, thanks.

Avoid?

Is God capable of explaining and helping a natural man the truth about the gospel. So that man is able to make a decision?

Ot is God not capable?

It’s the ONLY valid question one should ask. Because it is the only one that answers the question you asked with reason

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God.

 

[ReverendRV]

I disagree

Jesus shows 4 reactions to the truth.

Only one actually trusted the message and were saved.

The others believed for awhile. Or had mere belief. But the belief did not take root.. and was easily taken away

Let's add a fifth reaction to the Truth; the demons know Jesus is the Christ; but they're not even a Soil at all. The distinction between belief and Faith are apparent. But I've got you figured out; you don't want to know why we're right. But remember what I said about speaking past you?


Lurkers? What say you?

 

[Eleanor]

Avoid?

Is God capable of explaining and helping a natural man the truth about the gospel. So that man is able to make a decision?

Ot is God not capable?

It’s the ONLY valid question one should ask. Because it is the only one that answers the question you asked with reason

Which is answered in post #13.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let's add a fifth reaction to the Truth; the demons know Jesus is the Christ; but they're not even a Soil at all. The distinction between belief and Faith are apparent. But I've got you figured out; you don't want to know why we're right. But remember what I said about speaking past you?

The demons believe yet tremble

The demons had their chance. They will not get a second chance. Nor do they want one. They still think they will win. And they will until the end.

You got me figured out?

You want me to know your right. Prove it. Thats all you have to do.

4 groups. All had heard the word , but only one had saving faith

The first group They heard, but they did not understand, So Satan came and stole the truth from their heart, because it had no understanding and was not what they thought it was

The second group, Recieved it with joy (initial reaction) But it had no root, so when struggles came They quickly fell away (it was not rooted in faith)

The third group, the word of truth (the seed) is choked out by the things of this world. Wealth fame and fortune is what they trusted in, their faith was not in the word. Or the God who gave it them them.

The 4th group? - 1 They understood, 2 they trusted - they were rooted in Christ. The result. Not only were they saved, But they produced fruit.. Not everyone produced the same amount of fruit. But they produced.

The is the only group that was saved. The rest were lost.

You want to speak past me, freel free.

You want to convince me, then talk to me and show me where I am in error.

Or better yet. Let’s discuss the word. Not worried about who is wrong or right. And see if we both can learn something

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Which is answered in post #13.

Which was refuted in post 16

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

While the word is not a PRODUCER OF FAITH, it is the SOURCE OF FAITH.

These are Gods words not mine