Can A Person Be a Monergist and a Synergist At the Same Time? Can One Be Neither?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Even the nature of our Regeneration (not just our Sanctification) can be described as becoming IN CHRIST.

I believe this too.

But it takes walking in steps of faith to grow in Christ.

It all is of faith.. Who is our faith in? Again, is it God. or is it in self.

My faith is in God. I believe yours is too. On this we are united.

 

[makesends]

yes. we have a disagreement

Salvic faith is not some special faith as the Catholics like to put it. (a religious things as I see it) it is simple faith. Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain

Jesus gave as an example. a type of Christ in the OT. of what happens.

The bronze serpent.

Moses told the people. If you get bit. Look to this serpent and you will live (the word of God)

Those who lived (believed) were saved those who did not. would have died.

Jesus said in the same manor, The son of man must be lifted up so whoever believes will not perish (not die) and their new life will be forever.

The word of God is no different. we are dead, if we are not rescued..

If you want to live. Look to the cross.

If not. Keep looking away

He who believes is not condemned.

He who does not believe is condemned already.

I like how the man who came to Jesus said, Lord I believe Help me with my unbelief.

Somewhere I heard you ask if I even read what you had said. Here I can't think but that you don't read, or that you ignore, where these things you are repeating here --all of them things you have said before on this site-- were answered by sound exegesis and sound doctrine and sound reason. Whenever one of us says something that counters what you posit, you usually just say something to the effect of, "that's not what I believe", or you bring up one or more of the things you said above, as though that corrects what we showed.

I like how the man says, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief", too! That doesn't begin to prove your point that salvific faith is the same as being convinced of the trustworthiness of your wife or you chair or your car. And no, sorry, the fact that the Son of Man must be lifted up as the brass serpent was does not prove your point either. You have not shown how it does. Salvific faith is not man's response to convincing evidence.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Somewhere I heard you ask if I even read what you had said. Here I can't think but that you don't read, or that you ignore, where these things you are repeating here --all of them things you have said before on this site-- were answered by sound exegesis and sound doctrine and sound reason.

In other words.

All of them have been answered by what you BELIEVE is sound.

If it was truly sound. I would have at least given it a thought. As I believe I told another member earlier. When we give an answer to some that basically says I am right and you are wrong. and this is what the bible says, it is sound etc etc. We have shut off all forms of communication. when someone does this, they have prety much put their hand to the face of the other person. That usually does not end well..and also why I will call out people who do this. and will eventually set them aside. with no more communication

Its why I say, this is what I believe, this is what I see. I am not here to confront I came in to find common ground with brothers and sisters in Christ. in a chatroom that says Christ centered.. Christ should be our focus. Not all the extra fluff..

Whenever one of us says something that counters what you posit, you usually just say something to the effect of, "that's not what I believe", or you bring up one or more of the things you said above, as though that corrects what we showed.

Well show me where I am wrong in what I showed.

I like how the man says, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief", too! That doesn't begin to prove your point that salvific faith is the same as being convinced of the trustworthiness of your wife or you chair or your car. And no, sorry, the fact that the Son of Man must be lifted up as the brass serpent was does not prove your point either. You have not shown how it does. Salvific faith is not man's response to convincing evidence.

Well that's too bad then

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person says.


The serpent of Moses, Jesus used that example. a type of Christ. that those who looked because they trusted God would live. Those who did not because they did not believe would die.

Its the same for us

I do not make stuff up.. I know its easy for us to get to tied up in religion (I did this myself for many many years) that we make things more difficult than they are.

we make words up to make it sound more God like or whatever we are doing (again, I have done this, or followed this)

I think Paul said it best.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People call us free gracers. easy believists. lovers of sin. thinking we can just say a prayer and we are saved no matter what. we can live in sin etc etc.

what I have learned is just as the jews did when they returned from babylon. Is they make up stuff outside the word. to make sure they do not do what caused them to fall in the first place.

Only we do it for different reasons.

1. one group accuses us of this...
2. Our response is to make up a doctrine to refute the accusations.
3. Another group accuses us of that.
4. Again, our response is to create doctrines to refute the accusations.

sadly this goes on an on and eventually we have a lot of doctrines that we keep and hold and fight to the end. But they take away from the message because it makes things so difficult. and takes away from the simplicity in christ.

a perfect example is tulip vs arminian 5 point I will focus on the 5th point

The final point, Arminian follower will say we must "persevere to the end" or we will not be saved (Ie salvation can be lost)

so the other group makes a point we WILL persevere to the end.

which came first? I am not sure. I would hope the arminian point did. and the P in tulip was a response. why?

Because we do not persevere to the end. Saying we do is like saying we keep ourself saved by persevering.

God keeps us.

here we have left the simplicity of Christ to try to respond to a counterpoint. and in the end. cause what I have seen to be the most viscous arguments and fight in chat rooms far and wide.

I am blessed that I do not see that in this chat room. and have taken steps for those who try to bring me into one of these heated debates to not respond.

I pray we can all find common ground. and not take what others say personally. knowing we will not all agree on everything

 

[makesends]

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

Did I indicate that they are not God's words? You think they necessarily prove your point--they do not. You think they can ONLY mean what you use them to prove. Telling me that they are God's words do nothing to that end.

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person says.


The serpent of Moses, Jesus used that example. a type of Christ. that those who looked because they trusted God would live. Those who did not because they did not believe would die.

Its the same for us

I do not make stuff up.. I know its easy for us to get to tied up in religion (I did this myself for many many years) that we make things more difficult than they are.

we make words up to make it sound more God like or whatever we are doing (again, I have done this, or followed this)

I think Paul said it best.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People call us free gracers. easy believists. lovers of sin. thinking we can just say a prayer and we are saved no matter what. we can live in sin etc etc.

what I have learned is just as the jews did when they returned from babylon. Is they make up stuff outside the word. to make sure they do not do what caused them to fall in the first place.

Only we do it for different reasons.

1. one group accuses us of this...
2. Our response is to make up a doctrine to refute the accusations.
3. Another group accuses us of that.
4. Again, our response is to create doctrines to refute the accusations.

sadly this goes on an on and eventually we have a lot of doctrines that we keep and hold and fight to the end. But they take away from the message because it makes things so difficult. and takes away from the simplicity in christ.

a perfect example is tulip vs arminian 5 point I will focus on the 5th point

The final point, Arminian follower will say we must "persevere to the end" or we will not be saved (Ie salvation can be lost)

so the other group makes a point we WILL persevere to the end.

which came first? I am not sure. I would hope the arminian point did. and the P in tulip was a response. why?

Because we do not persevere to the end. Saying we do is like saying we keep ourself saved by persevering.

God keeps us.

here we have left the simplicity of Christ to try to respond to a counterpoint. and in the end. cause what I have seen to be the most viscous arguments and fight in chat rooms far and wide.

I am blessed that I do not see that in this chat room. and have taken steps for those who try to bring me into one of these heated debates to not respond.

I pray we can all find common ground. and not take what others say personally. knowing we will not all agree on everything

I'm going to leave this alone for now. I appreciate the effort you put into this, but it does nothing for your point. I could go through demonstrating your strawmen and other fallacies even within what you post, but that would only stall the conversation and worse, miss the point that your worldview and presupposition, which you stated outright somewhere, that "God created us to serve us and love us", is an invalid, and anthropocentric, construction.

 

[ReverendRV]

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

For every Verse which says, "We CAN"; we're to presuppose Grace has appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. IE, our Ears are first Circumcised...

All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. If, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" were All Scripture; you would be right. But it's not ALL Scripture. Other Verses modify our Systematic Theology. Systematic Theology establishes that Grace always goes before, "We CAN"...

What happens when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN", before a Verse which says, "We CAN'T"? This doesn't make sense; like putting Romans 10:7 before Romans 3:11 in your Systematic Theology. But when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN'T", before a Verse which says, "We CAN"; because of Grace, this makes sense...

Why? Because Grace thwarts the, "We CAN'T ". If "We CAN" without Grace, it doesn't make sense that we would EVER need Grace at all. If you back peddle, as you usually do, and say 'Yes, we need Grace first'; why do you keep saying that We CAN, as if we don't need Grace first?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Did I indicate that they are not God's words? You think they necessarily prove your point--they do not. You think they can ONLY mean what you use them to prove. Telling me that they are God's words do nothing to that end.

It’s what I see. If you don’t. Well that is what you see

I'm going to leave this alone for now. I appreciate the effort you put into this, but it does nothing for your point. I could go through demonstrating your strawmen and other fallacies even within what you post, but that would only stall the conversation and worse, miss the point that your worldview and presupposition, which you stated outright somewhere, that "God created us to serve us and love us", is an invalid, and anthropocentric, construction.

Yeah I think it is time to stop. Instead of discussing the word or discussing what we believe you have started to accuse me of things

You are at the point you are defending yourself and not listening to

So I will move on. Discussion can not happen this way. It becomes us attacking each other and u have tried not to do this

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For every Verse which says, "We CAN"; we're to presuppose Grace has appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. IE, our Ears are first Circumcised...

The word cuts to the heart. That’s why many do not want to hear it so I can agree

All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. If, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" were All Scripture; you would be right. But it's not ALL Scripture. Other Verses modify our Systematic Theology. Systematic Theology establishes that Grace always goes before, "We CAN"...

I do not systematic theology to tell me this. I deserve nothing. So without grace there is no can it can not there is death and an eternity in hell

What happens when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN", before a Verse which says, "We CAN'T"? This doesn't make sense; like putting Romans 10:7 before Romans 3:11 in your Systematic Theology. But when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN'T", before a Verse which says, "We CAN"; because of Grace, this makes sense...

Ok now you have e list me

Why? Because Grace thwarts the, "We CAN'T ". If "We CAN" without Grace, it doesn't make sense that we would EVER need Grace at all. If you back peddle, as you usually do, and say 'Yes, we need Grace first'; why do you keep saying that We CAN, as if we don't need Grace first?

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace then

 

[ReverendRV]

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace ththen

So, the Debate is over; right?

You'll never again say anyone can?

 

[ReverendRV]

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace ththen

This is only true after Grace, right?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result is faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So, the Debate is over; right?

You'll never again say anyone can?

The debate would be over in your mind

I believe with God all things are possible.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is only true after Grace, right?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result is faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

Grace starts the day you are born.

Again, I think people are trying to give religious meanings to words and not just take them for what they are

Grace in essence means unmerited or unearned favor.

there mere fact we are living and breathing and walking this earth is but the grace of God.

we earn nothing. not even life is ours to boast in. For God breathed into each of us the spirit of life. God holds our life in his hands. He determined when we will die, although we can act stupid and commit sins that lead to death prematurely. But the mere fact we can even do this, is by the grace of God

The mere fact we are not in hades waiting our final death is also by the grace of God. because that is where every human ever born belongs.

The mere fact we have an opportunity to be saved is by the grace of God.

NOTHING happens apart from the grace of God

 

[ReverendRV]

The debate would be over in your mind

I believe with God all things are possible.

Okay Tom...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Okay Tom...

I am sure you believe the same.

All things are possible. Because God is unlimited. not only in his grace and mercy, but in his power

 

[makesends]

The debate would be over in your mind

I believe with God all things are possible.

You believe with God all things are possible. Good. You do know, then, that because we think we are conceiving of something in our mind, such as God making a rock too big for him to pick up, that all we have conceived of is stupidity, self-contradiction and human presumption that we can put words together to mean something real that encumbers God. Such foolishness is not a THING. It's not even impossible. It's only silly.

Such is the notion that for God to have 'a real relationship with humanity' and to love us, he must endow us with the ability to be like him --to some degree autonomous. That is wrong on many levels, including that it assumes that this life is for this life, and that we operate on his level. It is foolishness and contradicts both reason and scripture concerning God's attributes and his very being.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You believe with God all things are possible. Good. You do know, then, that because we think we are conceiving of something in our mind, such as God making a rock too big for him to pick up, that all we have conceived of is stupidity, self-contradiction and human presumption that we can put words together to mean something real that encumbers God. Such foolishness is not a THING. It's not even impossible. It's only silly.

Such is the notion that for God to have 'a real relationship with humanity' and to love us, he must endow us with the ability to be like him --to some degree autonomous. That is wrong on many levels, including that it assumes that this life is for this life, and that we operate on his level. It is foolishness and contradicts both reason and scripture concerning God's attributes and his very being.

Again,

With God all things are possible

God does not need to make us alive IN SIN against his perfect justice. to get us to understand who and what he is, and decide if we want his salvation.

He can do that all by himself.

If anyone is limiting God here. it is not me.

God created us in his image. It is what separates us from all animal and plant life in that we can love, we can receive love, we can create, we can do all these things..

God told us it is better to give than to receive.

This is God. That's why God loves to give, because it is more blessed to give and receive the joy of giving, than it is to take..

I think Jesus showed us when he was here what this means..

He sacrificed himself for everyone. May people. including Pharisees eventually came to him, Because he and his disciples went out and loved people.

as far as operating on his level. I have never stated this. You are assuming things I have never even contemplated.. Thats why I get so frustrated. Because people assume things that are not true,. 90 % of the times it is because they are believing that they have been taught, or putting me under some ISM.

I thought we got over that. I pray I was not wrong

 

[Arial]

God does not need to make us alive IN SIN against his perfect justice. to get us to understand who and what he is, and decide if we want his salvation.

He can do that all by himself.

And yet Eph 2 says that is exactly what he does. And how is making us alive when we are dead not God all by himself. "And decide if we want his salvation." ? Show that Scripture says that? And who, pray tell, if they understood and therefore believed who Jesus is, and that gives eternal life and heaven instead of hell, would decide he didn't want it? Tell me how that is even possible?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And yet Eph 2 says that is exactly what he does. And how is making us alive when we are dead not God all by himself. "And decide if we want his salvation." ? Show that Scripture says that? And who, pray tell, if they understood and therefore believed who Jesus is, and that gives eternal life and heaven instead of hell, would decide he didn't want it? Tell me how that is even possible?

I have already proven this to be in error. Yet you keep bringin it up.

Eph 2:

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

1. We were dead IN TRESSPASSES AND SIN, we are now made alive (which means trespasses and sin have been forgiven


2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

2. God is rich in mercy
3. God has great love (there is that love word)
4. He made us alive TOGETHER
5. How? By Grace we have been saved. How are we saved by grace? lets continue

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone
should boast.

6. our salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH
7. Our faith is NOT OF OURSELVES
8. Our salvation is a GIFT OF GOD
9. our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. lest anyone be puffed up
10. Faith is not a work.

You keep demanding I answer you. Yet I keep answering you and you keep not hearing

This is at least the third time I have posted this passage to explain it all in context.

Yet I keep being taken to this passage as it if proves you right.,

You want to keep taking me, feel free. It makes my faith stronger. Because I am reminded of where it came from.

 

[Arial]

I have already proven this to be in error. Yet you keep bringin it up.

Not to me you haven't. Someone who is dead in their sins has to be brought to life before anything else happens. Spiritually dead people can't believe. There is nothing in Scripture about God helping dead people to understand so he can bring them to life.

6. our salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH
7. Our faith is NOT OF OURSELVES
8. Our salvation is a GIFT OF GOD
9. our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. lest anyone be puffed up
10. Faith is not a work.

https://christcentered.community.fo...the-heart-of-the-natural-man.2680/post-114097

Arial said
What does being placed in Christ entail?
Being given faith that places its trust in the person and work of Jesus.
EternallyGrateful replied:
yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

It is not given, It must be earned.

You keep demanding I answer you. Yet I keep answering you and you keep not hearing

This is at least the third time I have posted this passage to explain it all in context.

Yet I keep being taken to this passage as it if proves you right.,

You want to keep taking me, feel free. It makes my faith stronger. Because I am reminded of where it came from.

I hear you just fine. I disagree with you. Maybe you are not hearing me?

 

[makesends]

Again,

With God all things are possible

If you miss my point, about man-made constructions of thought and words that are logically vapid —they are not THINGS. It is not a question of whether or not God can do them. It is a question of whether or not they even make sense.

You say, ignoring that point, I think: "With God all things are possible." True they are, if they are 'things'. Would you say it is possible for God to lie? —after all, "with God, all things are possible!"

God does not need to make us alive IN SIN against his perfect justice. to get us to understand who and what he is, and decide if we want his salvation.

Once again. He does not make us alive IN SIN.

He can do that all by himself.

If anyone is limiting God here. it is not me.

Where did I say anything about limiting God? If I did, I don't read it in the post to which you are responding here.

God created us in his image. It is what separates us from all animal and plant life in that we can love, we can receive love, we can create, we can do all these things..

And...?

God told us it is better to give than to receive.

This is God. That's why God loves to give, because it is more blessed to give and receive the joy of giving, than it is to take..

I think Jesus showed us when he was here what this means..

Why are you telling me these things? What has the wonderful truth of them to do with the question at hand? It is as if you are using a scatter-gun, but it is low on powder.

He sacrificed himself for everyone. May people. including Pharisees eventually came to him, Because he and his disciples went out and loved people.

Were we talking here about the scope of his sacrifice? But, since you bring it up, your example, (as if proving that he sacrificed himself for everyone), shows only at best that he sacrificed himself for all sorts of people, just like others of the 'proof texts' the Self-Determinist uses to prove that God intended (but was unable) to save everyone.

as far as operating on his level. I have never stated this. You are assuming things I have never even contemplated.. Thats why I get so frustrated. Because people assume things that are not true,. 90 % of the times it is because they are believing that they have been taught, or putting me under some ISM.

I know you have never stated that. That is why I keep pointing it out. You seem not to realize (contemplate) that that is what the notion of salvation via any faith that is of human derivation (I didn't say 'origin', since you so cleverly point out it comes from whomever you trust in, because they have convinced you) —again, faith of human derivation, by which I mean faith that you apparently mean is what we produce upon being convinced, does. Your construction elevates your ability to choose to that of God's ability to cause.

I thought we got over that. I pray I was not wrong

Self-Determinist is a word I use for short, for "Those Who Insist on Self-Determinism". You don't want to be categorized under any -ism, yet, there you are, consistently claiming that WE cannot be saved unless by US choosing Christ. You have spent long paragraphs and many posts explaining that, reducing and expanding that, even defining faith by that boundary while claiming it comes From God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not to me you haven't. Someone who is dead in their sins has to be brought to life before anything else happens. Spiritually dead people can't believe. There is nothing in Scripture about God helping dead people to understand so he can bring them to life.

see, now I can not see this, They can not be brought to life UNTIL their sin debt is resolved.
As for spiritually dead people being brought to life because they understood. it is all over the place. John 1 - 6 would be a great place to start.

In john 6. Jesus even lets them know. You do not see because you do not believe.

https://christcentered.community.fo...the-heart-of-the-natural-man.2680/post-114097

Arial said
What does being placed in Christ entail?
Being given faith that places its trust in the person and work of Jesus.
EternallyGrateful replied:
yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

It is not given, It must be earned.

This is the second (or is it the third) you have refused to counter point what I said. and just went back to your doctrinal view.

You accused me of not understanding Eph 2 by claiming Eph 2 says exactly what you claim it did.

I point by point took us through the passage.

And all you say is I am wrong, and no counterpoints of your own.

I hear you just fine. I disagree with you. Maybe you are not hearing me?

I hear you fine. And this I can live with.. We agree to disagree.