But whom say ye that I am?

[Carbon]

I wasnt sure where to start this thread, at first I thought the Arminian and Calvinism area. After thinking about it, I thought, though this could be, I don't want it to be just another A&C debate. Though it could surely work in that direction, I though this might be the best area.

But anyway, here it is. Then a few questions.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mark 16.

How did Peter know Jesus is the Christ? And what is the rock Jesus will build his church on? What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

Thoughts?

 

[Fred]

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus is the Christ?

The end of verse 17 gives the answer.

 

[Carbon]

The end of verse 17 gives the answer.

Indeed.

 

[Carbon]

The end of verse 17 gives the answer.

I could ask, how was that accomplished?

 

[Carbon]

I wasnt sure where to start this thread, at first I thought the Arminian and Calvinism area. After thinking about it, I thought, though this could be, I don't want it to be just another A&C debate. Though it could surely work in that direction, I though this might be the best area.

This may be best in the Christian church area. So here it is

 

[Fred]

I could ask, how was that accomplished?

This revealing was done because it pleased the Father (cf. Matthew 11:26).
The specific means by which He did so is uncertain.

 

[Tambora]

What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

Thoughts?

Here's one perspective:

Take into consideration where Christ said that, and the pun He uses about one Rock being atop and superior to another that will be crushed beneath it.

Matthew 16 ESV​

(13) Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”​

(14) And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”​

(15) He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”​

(16) Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

(17) And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

(18) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

Caesarea Philippi was in the district of Bashan at the base of Mount Hermon.
This was an area flooded with pagan shrines and known for demonic activity.
Mount Hermon has a long and sinister history.
The Book of Enoch records that this is the very Mount where the fallen Watchers made their pact to take human women in Genesis 6.
Mount Hermon is a giant rock mountain range.
In this Mount are underground water sources with cave openings to deep dark water.
So deep were the waters of these cave openings that the ancients believed them to be bottomless and gates to the underworld.
These deep dark cave openings became known as "The Gates of Hades" (the gates of hell).

View attachment 854
The Gates of Hades.

Scholars have said that verse 18 is not saying that the gates of hell will attack the Rock that is Christ & His Church, but rather that the Rock that is Christ & His Church is the one on the offensive and the the gates of hell will not be able to withstand it.
It's as if Jesus specifically choose that location to make a declaration of victory, for there is none that can deliver out of His hand.

Kinda fits very well with:

Deuteronomy 32 ESV​

(37) Then he will say, ‘Where are their gods, the rock in which they took refuge,​

 

[Josheb]

How did Peter know Jesus is the Christ?

I am not convinced Peter did know Jesus is the Christ, or if he "knew" it, he did not understand what he was saying. Peter is an impulsive person, and he vacillates. This same Peter who blurts out, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God!" is also the same Peter who denied Jesus multiple times, the same Peter who clung to the Law legalistically. We do not know his mind. That scripture could be read to mean Peter was declaring what he hoped to be true, not what he knew to be true, and Jesus' response as affirmation of Peter's hope, what for Peter was speculative hope. After all Peter is also the guy who says he and the others have given up everything to follow Jesus (I hope my commitment will prove worth giving up everything). Perhaps Peter did understand because Jesus says it was revealed to Peter by the Father. Peter is also the guy who stands up in the boat and realizes his depravity next to Jesus' authority and asks Jesus to leave..... but the substance of that epiphany does not long endure in Peter. Like Jacob and many others in scripture Peter had to be "trained," by God to hold fast to his claim. Imagine how Peter felt, the older steward of the gospel when he was confronted and correct over his double-standards and hypocrisy by the newer apostle and former murderous conspirator.

And what is the rock Jesus will build his church on?

Where scripture is silent, so too should we be silent, but I'm inclined to say it is Christ's identity and the profession in faith that is the "rock." I say "and" because Jesus is always the anointed one of God. That does not exist or change simply because humans say the words. The words reconcile with the reality. We stand on the "rock" that is Jesus, but we do so by faith. There is only one thing we need in the end and that is to have held onto our faith. If we believe, we will be saved. Blessedly, that profession does not come from sinful flesh; it is revealed and empowered by our Savior.

What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

Thoughts?

Faith. All the world's religions beside Christianity are built on works or knowledge being the means of salvation, or enlighten, or whatever the preeminent achievement that religion holds out as the goal. Christianity eschews that concept and that practice and replaces it with believe. The gospel spread and the Church grew on that precept: believe in the name of God's only resurrected Son and you will be saved from sin and death.

 

[Carbon]

I am not convinced Peter did know Jesus is the Christ, or if he "knew" it, he did not understand what he was saying.

Well, if it was revealed to him by the Father, he knew. Could he figure it all out? Probably not. Just like us, when we are regenerated, we know Jesus is the Christ, we can't figure it all out but we know, therefore we also believe and confess him unto salvation.

Peter is an impulsive person, and he vacillates. This same Peter who blurts out, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God!" is also the same Peter who denied Jesus multiple times, the same Peter who clung to the Law legalistically. We do not know his mind.

There are many personal traits about Peter's mind we cannot know, but we do know about the law of sin which Paul teaches in Romans 7. He was human, sinful, and in need of constant sanctification and forgiveness as we all are. Do you think if the Father reveals something to you, you won't know it? The church is built on those to whom the Father reveals Christ, through their confession.

 

[Carbon]

Faith. All the world's religions beside Christianity are built on works or knowledge being the means of salvation, or enlighten, or whatever the preeminent achievement that religion holds out as the goal. Christianity eschews that concept and that practice and replaces it with believe. The gospel spread and the Church grew on that precept: believe in the name of God's only resurrected Son and you will be saved from sin and death.

Yes, and in order for us to believe, Christ must be revealed by the Father. How do you think Jesus is revealed to us?
Jesus says this: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

This is what happened to Peter. His flesh didn't reveal who Jesus was. He had to be made alive.

 

[Carbon]

Where scripture is silent, so too should we be silent,

But it's not silent here.

but I'm inclined to say it is Christ's identity and the profession in faith that is the "rock."

See

 

[Josheb]

Well, if it was revealed to him by the Father, he knew. Could he figure it all out? Probably not. Just like us, when we are regenerated, we know Jesus is the Christ, we can't figure it all out but we know, therefore we also believe and confess him unto salvation.

Yes, and I should clarify what I meant because I did not mean to imply Peter never knew, only that at the time of his statement in Mark 16 he did not grasp his own words, especially not fully. The Jews of his era expected the anointed one to overthrow the Romans and set up shop as the King of Israel, a king like all the other nations (only better). It was not within their lexicon of understanding that the anointed one would die a criminal (defeated by dishonest authorities) and come back from the dead. I do not mean to steer us off-topic, but that "earthly" view has always been a sort of puzzling indictment of the RCCism for me because that profession the supposed first Pope made was misguided.

Matthew 16:21-23
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

Hmmm... , God built His Church on Satan? Peter knew Jesus was the anointed one of God and then set about to obstruct his way and later deny what he knew God had revealed to him?

There are many personal traits about Peter's mind we cannot know, but we do know about the law of sin which Paul teaches in Romans 7. He was human, sinful, and in need of constant sanctification and forgiveness as we all are. Do you think if the Father reveals something to you, you won't know it? The church is built on those to whom the Father reveals Christ, through their confession.

What specifically did the Father reveal to Peter, exactly? We do not know. What we do know is that Peter was a double-minded man, and he remained so even after Calvary, being reconciled with the fish-cooking Jesus on the beach and Pentecost. That witness is there for a reason (if nothing else, it confirms a certain assurance of salvation), a witness that is different than Matthew's or John's (or Paul's) while still bearing witness to Jesus the Anointed One of God made incarnate as a man, living, dead, resurrected, ascended and ruling over ALL. What we do know is that the mainstream, traditional view of the prophesied anointed one was much different than the real things turned out to be. If Peter understood that in Mark 16 then he later contradicted himself and denied his own knowledge and the revelation by God given to him that day. It is much more consistent to read the Mark 16 profession as Peter understanding Jesus is the prophesied anointed one, but not understanding all that entailed.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, and in order for us to believe, Christ must be revealed by the Father.

The correct Jesus must be revealed and be revealed sufficiently to transform salvifically. Joseph Smith claims God revealed Jesus to him.

How do you think Jesus is revealed to us?

Jesus says this: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

This is what happened to Peter. His flesh didn't reveal who Jesus was. He had to be made alive.

He'd been made alive prior to Calvary and Pentecost and then proceeded to obstruct Jesus (in collaboration with Satan?) and deny God, God's revelation, and what he knew he knew???


Make that case.

 

[Josheb]

But it's not silent here.

See

Are you being facetious? If so, then stick an emoji in there to indicate the rhetorical content.

Peter did not correctly understand Christ's (true) identity. This failure in understanding is revealed later (to Peter himself, to all the others in attendance, and to us as readers of the historical record) when Peter obstructs Jesus, and still later denies him thrice. Otherwise, we have a Peter who correctly understands who and what is Jesus and what Jesus will providentially do and accomplish deliberately acting in a manner to prevent..... monergism. His getting in the way of Jesus is inherently resisting God.

And please do not quote mine my posts.

Where scripture is silent, so too should we be silent, but I'm inclined to say it is Christ's identity and the profession in faith that is the "rock." I say "and" because Jesus is always the anointed one of God. That does not exist or change simply because humans say the words. The words reconcile with the reality. We stand on the "rock" that is Jesus, but we do so by faith. There is only one thing we need in the end and that is to have held onto our faith. If we believe, we will be saved. Blessedly, that profession does not come from sinful flesh; it is revealed and empowered by our Savior.

See

I do see. I see there's no evidence Peter understood any of that (and more) in Matthew 16. Ironically, Jesus did not say, "...upon this rock I have built my Church." He said, "will," indicating a future, yet to have occurred event. That would be a peculiar juxtaposition given the fact Paul described how the righteous have always lived by faith in the messianic promises of God and the Hebrews author's claim they are all made complete in the body of Christ. The body of Christ is, by definition, those who have been crucified with Christ. No crucifixion, no death, no resurrection, no anointed one and no anointing. The crucifixion, resurrection, and the bestowing of the same on the ecclesia was yet to come in Matthew 16. Between Matthew 16 and Matthew 28 all the eleven and other disciples have is the baptism of John, the baptism with water of repentance, not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. They were commanded to stay put until Pentecost before heading out to baptize all the nations and teach Jesus' commands.

Think otherwise? Then make that case.






Btw, the op incorrectly cites the scripture quoted as Mark 16, when the quote comes from Matthew 16.
.

 

[Carbon]

Are you being facetious? If so, then stick an emoji in there to indicate the rhetorical content.

Peter did not correctly understand Christ's (true) identity. This failure in understanding is revealed later (to Peter himself, to all the others in attendance, and to us as readers of the historical record) when Peter obstructs Jesus, and still later denies him thrice. Otherwise, we have a Peter who correctly understands who and what is Jesus and what Jesus will providentially do and accomplish deliberately acting in a manner to prevent..... monergism. His getting in the way of Jesus is inherently resisting God.

And please do not quote mine my posts.

I do see. I see there's no evidence Peter understood any of that (and more) in Matthew 16. Ironically, Jesus did not say, "...upon this rock I have built my Church." He said, "will," indicating a future, yet to have occurred event. That would be a peculiar juxtaposition given the fact Paul described how the righteous have always lived by faith in the messianic promises of God and the Hebrews author's claim they are all made complete in the body of Christ. The body of Christ is, by definition, those who have been crucified with Christ. No crucifixion, no death, no resurrection, no anointed one and no anointing. The crucifixion, resurrection, and the bestowing of the same on the ecclesia was yet to come in Matthew 16. Between Matthew 16 and Matthew 28 all the eleven and other disciples have is the baptism of John, the baptism with water of repentance, not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. They were commanded to stay put until Pentecost before heading out to baptize all the nations and teach Jesus' commands.

Think otherwise? Then make that case.






Btw, the op incorrectly cites the scripture quoted as Mark 16, when the quote comes from Matthew 16.
.

good stuff in your replies. I should have more time to put into these in a day or so. Thanks.

 

[TATII]

How did Peter know Jesus is the Christ?

“Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 16:17 NKJV)

Well, according to the Lord Yahshua Christ…the eternal Spirit of God the Father of creation revealed it to Peter…right there as the Scripture has it recorded…I would suggest. Yahshua said “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you” that would indicate that this understanding came from eternity Himself…with the clear and open support of God manifest in the flesh…affirming him…clearly.

And what is the rock Jesus will build his church on? What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

The “rock” is the Lord Himself…I first see this in Daniel 2…however…when the Lord says you are Peter…He is simply acknowledging that He knows Peter…His disciple and buddy…His chosen man whom He recognizes as His own…has now been introduced to the spiritual supernatural Truth of who the Man Yahshua is…as…God manifest in the flesh exactly as prophesied hundreds of years before…standing before him. He is affirming that Peter is hearing from the Spirit of God and understanding this truth.

Given this Truth…the Lord tells Peter that upon this revelation of who He “The Lord Yahshua is”…the “rock of our salvation”…God manifest in the flesh…exactly as prophesied and born of the virgin…He going to build His Body. No man comes to the Father except through the Lord…so there is a direct one to one correlation between Yahshua and Peter in the Spirit in that moment…and Yahshua acknowledges this for Peter.

Most of Israel in Yahshua’s day did not believe that…neither did the Romans and “world” around them…because it is Spirit discerned or revealed…the carnal mind does not see these spiritual truths. The Lord is saying that anyone who receives this revelation from the Spirit of God and obeys Him…will be included in Christ.

Peter is the one who was utterly vindicated by the Lord in that when it came time on the Pentecost following the resurrection and ascension of our Lord…it was him…Peter whom Lord allowed to explain and reveal…that the Lord Yahshua Christ had returned to them as He told them He would…as the Holy Spirit that was now present in them.

There is the manifestation of the “rock”…Yahshua returned as the Holy Spirit exactly as He stated when He was alive with them prior to the crucifixion…His Holy Presence could not be denied…He lived…He died…He was resurrected…He came back as God and took up residence in them…this is the “rock solid foundation” of the eternal Kingdom of God and it will never change.

Tatwo...

 

[atpollard]

What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

Thoughts?

Approach the question from the other direction (hindsight being 20/20).
We are the CHURCH, so what WAS it built on?

Was it built upon the person of Simon, son of Jonah, renamed Peter, and his successors?

• If I place unwavering faith in Peter, will that make me THE CHURCH? I don't think so ... and I don't thing History bears faith in Peter as the 'shibboleth' of our entrance into the Church.

Was it built upon the KNOWLEDGE granted?

• If I just learn enough, will that make me THE CHURCH? Christian Forums stand as living proof that 'taint so'.

Was it built upon the 12 people present ... the Apostles?

• Since one was "the son of perdition" and the people that wrote most of what WE know about the Church (Luke and Paul) were not even THERE, I am gonna have to say that it was not those specific individuals that the CHURCH was built upon.

So what DOES distinguish a "wheat" from a "tare" or a "sheep" from a "goat" (or a "wolf in sheep clothing")?

• It seems to me that WHAT THE FATHER DID FOR PETER is what the CHURCH is built upon. The ROCK upon which God's Church is built is the people coming to the understanding that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God." Since Ephesians 2 tells us this is a GIFT from God (prevenient or predestined ... still a GIFT and still FROM GOD), is the CHURCH not still built up exactly as it was when Jesus spoke those words?

Romans 10:5-13 [NLT]

For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. But faith's way of getting right with God says, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (to bring Christ down to earth). And don't say, 'Who will go down to the place of the dead?' (to bring Christ back to life again)." In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."​

 

[Lees]

I wasnt sure where to start this thread, at first I thought the Arminian and Calvinism area. After thinking about it, I thought, though this could be, I don't want it to be just another A&C debate. Though it could surely work in that direction, I though this might be the best area.

But anyway, here it is. Then a few questions.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mark 16.

How did Peter know Jesus is the Christ? And what is the rock Jesus will build his church on? What exactly did Jesus mean by: "and upon this rock I will build my church"

Thoughts?

Do you mean (Matt. 16:15-20)? I see you listed it as (Mark 16).

Peter knew Jesus was the Christ because the Father revealed it to him to know. (Matt. 16:17) "...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

I believe the 'rock' to be the testimony that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God.

It means upon that testimony Christ will build His Church. The Person of Jesus had been rejected. Thus His identity becomes crucial in the building of His Church. (Acts 8:34-35) "...I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."

Also, (Acts 2:36). "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Lees

 

[atpollard]

And what is the rock Jesus will build his church on?

All of it ...

• the PROCLAMATION of who He is,
• the divine revelation to those who make such a proclamation of who He is,
• and the reality of who He is

... (and as "the Christ, son of the living God", what that reality means ... a revelation summed up in the FACT that the "GATES" that hold mankind imprisoned in "DEATH" are nothing compared to the power of this revealed TRUTH).