Are there modern day prophets and Apostle then today?

[Carbon]

Then stick to the op and I won't have reason to depart with digression.

Maybe we both should?

 

[JesusFan]

How would you read the text on this...
Joel 2:28-31
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Was fulfiled in the time of Acts

 

[JesusFan]

These manifestations were a specific sign of the Apostolic age. confirming the new covenant had arrived.

Christians now have direct access to Him through the indwelling of His Spirit.

We also have the written word and we do not need Prophets and Apostles for dreams, visions and the like.

Peter's Sermon at Pentecost
Act 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
Act 2:15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
Act 2:18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
Act 2:20 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
Act 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'


If you believe there are real Prophets and Apostles today, can you point them out?

He would say Ellen White, Mormons Joseph Smith, word of faith Copeland, hagin, Hinn etc

 

[JesusFan]

No, they are not. They are about how the prophet has changed over the course of God's history, from the days when prophecy was revealed in the written word first recorded by Moses (not Moses himself) to the development of the "office" or formal position of prophet, to the New Testament examples where multiple "offices" were shared by the same person(s), to the post-Pentecost experience of prophecy occurring by the average convert at the time of his or her salvation on through examples in modernity where prophecy occurs with scriptural integrity and examples where it does not.

The offices of prophet and Apostles themselves ceased when John died, and only those in Cults or charisma ever claimed otherwise

 

[Josheb]

The offices of prophet and Apostles themselves ceased when John died, and only those in Cults or charisma ever claimed otherwise

Why are you repeating already posted content?
Why are you not keeping up with what has been posted after everyone has agreed the offices of the prophet and the apostle have ceased?
Why are you not moving the conversation forward?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

He would say Ellen White, Mormons Joseph Smith, word of faith Copeland, hagin, Hinn etc

Agreed.

I still want visual proof.

 

[JesusFan]

Why are you repeating already posted content?
Why are you not keeping up with what has been posted after everyone has agreed the offices of the prophet and the apostle have ceased?
Why are you not moving the conversation forward?

So you would agree then no prophets nor apostles in the biblical sense exist today then?

 

[Josheb]

So you would agree then no prophets nor apostles in the biblical sense exist today then?

I have already answered that question. No office of prophet or apostle exists today. However, every conversion has the potential to manifest prophecy and apostleship as a work of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life at that time. This is why you were asked to define the terms (and you've failed to do so correctly). Lots of people in the Bible who prophesied did not inhabit the "office" of prophet.

If I read this thread correctly then you started this op with the intent to repudiate those in the Word of Faith (WoF) movement claiming to be prophets. The problem is you do not mention the WoF anywhere in the op. All you say is there appears to be a "push" toward believing what you later identify as WoF-style false prophets. No one would understand that by reading only the op. No one would know that you mean "WoF false prophets" instead of "modern-day prophets." I'll assume that was not intentional. I'll assume you were not intentionally trying to create the problem of ambiguity that runs through your posts, beginning with the failure to correctly define the term "prophet," OR respond directly to my input in that matter. Not all prophets added to scripture. You never addressed the mistake of using that as a defining metric of a prophet.

We're six pages into this discussion and you still do not know what is a prophet. You know something about what is not a prophet, but arguing antithesis (what something is not) does not get anyone very far. A prophet is not a purple striped, yellow polka doted aboriginal wombat. That is why I provided a modern example of someone making prophetic statement during an episode of conversion that was not the convert himself. "Wow" is not a cogent op-relevant response to that example. You were also completely unable to address the screwy syllogism I posted multiple times in which the existence of prophets in the last days was pitted against the belief we are living in the last days. You've got a glaring contradiction in your posts and have thus far proved unable to resolve it. That phrase you just used, "in the biblical sense" is the epitome of ambiguity. Ten different people will define that in ten different ways - especially since the Bible does not provide a definitive definition of prophet or apostle. I posted information about both and you ignored it. The onus is on you, not me, to define your terms and do so correctly. Prophets and apostles are not limited to an office, any more than evangelists, pastors, or teachers are. Are there modern-day evangelists in existence today? Yes. Are there modern-day pastors existing today? Yes. Are there modern-day teachers existing today? Yes. Their "offices" are gone. Nonetheless the Holy Spirit continues to work in and through God's people to preach, shepherd, and teach, as well as provide oversight, guidance, accountability, and illuminate God's already-existing revelation.


No, there is no office of the prophet or the apostle in existence today and the WoF version were never prophets or apostles in the first place. Please do not ask me again.


Now, can I get an answer to the questions asked in Post 105?

1. Why are you repeating already posted content?
2. Why are you not keeping up with what has been posted after everyone has agreed the offices of the prophet and the apostle have ceased?
3. Why are you not moving the conversation forward?

.

 

[JesusFan]

I have already answered that question. No office of prophet or apostle exists today. However, every conversion has the potential to manifest prophecy and apostleship as a work of the Holy Spirit in the individual's life at that time. This is why you were asked to define the terms (and you've failed to do so correctly). Lots of people in the Bible who prophesied did not inhabit the "office" of prophet.

If I read this thread correctly then you started this op with the intent to repudiate those in the Word of Faith (WoF) movement claiming to be prophets. The problem is you do not mention the WoF anywhere in the op. All you say is there appears to be a "push" toward believing what you later identify as WoF-style false prophets. No one would understand that by reading only the op. No one would know that you mean "WoF false prophets" instead of "modern-day prophets." I'll assume that was not intentional. I'll assume you were not intentionally trying to create the problem of ambiguity that runs through your posts, beginning with the failure to correctly define the term "prophet," OR respond directly to my input in that matter. Not all prophets added to scripture. You never addressed the mistake of using that as a defining metric of a prophet.

We're six pages into this discussion and you still do not know what is a prophet. You know something about what is not a prophet, but arguing antithesis (what something is not) does not get anyone very far. A prophet is not a purple striped, yellow polka doted aboriginal wombat. That is why I provided a modern example of someone making prophetic statement during an episode of conversion that was not the convert himself. "Wow" is not a cogent op-relevant response to that example. You were also completely unable to address the screwy syllogism I posted multiple times in which the existence of prophets in the last days was pitted against the belief we are living in the last days. You've got a glaring contradiction in your posts and have thus far proved unable to resolve it. That phrase you just used, "in the biblical sense" is the epitome of ambiguity. Ten different people will define that in ten different ways - especially since the Bible does not provide a definitive definition of prophet or apostle. I posted information about both and you ignored it. The onus is on you, not me, to define your terms and do so correctly. Prophets and apostles are not limited to an office, any more than evangelists, pastors, or teachers are. Are there modern-day evangelists in existence today? Yes. Are there modern-day pastors existing today? Yes. Are there modern-day teachers existing today? Yes. Their "offices" are gone. Nonetheless the Holy Spirit continues to work in and through God's people to preach, shepherd, and teach, as well as provide oversight, guidance, accountability, and illuminate God's already-existing revelation.


No, there is no office of the prophet or the apostle in existence today and the WoF version were never prophets or apostles in the first place. Please do not ask me again.


Now, can I get an answer to the questions asked in Post 105?

1. Why are you repeating already posted content?
2. Why are you not keeping up with what has been posted after everyone has agreed the offices of the prophet and the apostle have ceased?
3. Why are you not moving the conversation forward?

.

The office of the OT prophet and NT Apostles ONLY existed in the scriptures times, as we no longer have had either sent into the church since John died , and I am attacking Wof and Chiasmata Views on this, as they ALONE see them as still continuing and function even today in the body of Christ

 

[Josheb]

The office of the OT prophet and NT Apostles ONLY existed in the scriptures times, as we no longer have had either sent into the church since John died , and I am attacking Wof and Chiasmata Views on this, as they ALONE see them as still continuing and function even today in the body of Christ

Anything else?

 

[JesusFan]

Anything else?

As in?

 

[Josheb]

As in?

As in today's existence of modern-day prophets and apostles relevant to all that has been posted on the subject. Anything else to add other than,

The office of the OT prophet and NT Apostles ONLY existed in the scriptures times, as we no longer have had either sent into the church since John died , and I am attacking Wof and Chiasmata Views on this, as they ALONE see them as still continuing and function even today in the body of Christ

or is that it from you?

 

[JesusFan]

As in today's existence of modern-day prophets and apostles relevant to all that has been posted on the subject. Anything else to add other than,

or is that it from you?

They alone still see prophets and Apostles active for today

 

[Hobie]

So you deny what Gods Word says in Act 2:17 and Joel 2:28-29?

 

[Arial]

So you deny what Gods Word says in Act 2:17 and Joel 2:28-29?

Disagreeing with the SDA or Charismatic interpretation of those verses is not the same thing as denying those scriptures. Be careful in your implied accusations.

 

[Hobie]

Disagreeing with the SDA or Charismatic interpretation of those verses is not the same thing as denying those scriptures. Be careful in your implied accusations.

That is Gods Word, not any interpretation and in good context.

Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

 

[Josheb]

That is Gods Word, not any interpretation and in good context.

Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Yes, and.....?

You've got three posts in this thread and none of them move the conversation forward. Joel 2 and Acts 2 have been broached and discussed.

 

[Arial]

That is Gods Word, not any interpretation and in good context.

Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Joel 2:28-29
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

You are interpreting those passages when you determine what you think they are saying. You present them as meaning a specific thing. If someone ask you what you think they mean you would give a specific answer. But not everyone when asked the same question would give the same answer as you.

But the question being debated is not what individual think they mean but what DO they mean. Finding out what they DO mean requires finding out what Peter meant. And finding out what Peter meant requires finding out what he as a Jew quoting from the OT and applying a prophecy (therefore, interpreting that prophecy) to what was being witnessed at Pentecost.

That has already been done by a couple of posters in this thread and I am not going back through 6 pages to find them for you. And since I was probably one of those posters who covered it, I am not going to repeat it or repeat the work of others.