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Are there modern day prophets and Apostle then today?

@Josheb

The last days started with Jesus’ first coming. And who do you think the last OT prophet was. None other than John the Baptist.

Peter and James happened to be alive “Prophesying” in these last days. Jesus was, “prophet,” priest and king.

All these things happened “in the last days” according to the prophet Joel.
 
If prophecy continues and is infallible it competes with Scripture. If it is fallible, it redefines prophecy itself.

So, if the last days are "this age", the time period between the first and second coming of Christ, what does Acts 2:17 mean?

Since this prophecy of Joel is tied to Pentecost and the Spirit being poured out, it could refer to, not revelatory prophecy, but the preaching and teaching of the word as revealed in the apostles laying of the foundation of the church and extended--to Spirit filled believers preaching and teaching that word of God. Spreading the gospel, giving understanding of the word of God. Staying always on that foundation and not adding to it or taking away from it.
Three comments and one question.

Comment 1: Very commendable answer.

Comment 2: Wow 😲. That is a lot to add to scripture.

Comment 3: There is an easier explanation. It is very much related to what you've said but this isn't quite it.

Question: I know you cannot speak for others but.... Why is it @JesusFan and @Carbon have so much difficulty answering the question when you, apparently, can do so and do so on the correct track? One attempt and that is a commendable (though incomplete, imo) response.


This is not complicated, folks. Joel and Peter reported there would be people prophesying in the last days. Those who say we are in the last days (a very commonly heled point of view, especially among the Reformed) and also say there are no prophets place themselves in a position to explain the seeming inconsistency. It has absolutely nothing to do with any opposing point of view. It is an easily addressed matter, so I genuinely wonder how the question - merely asking this very valid and op-relevant question - prompts so much obfuscation (he must be a preterist! 😤 One who doesn't understand the difference between preterism and partial preterism 🤪). Just answer the question, @JesusFan and @Carbon. You do not need to be rescued by @Arial. Once the answer is posted both you (@JesusFan and @Carbon) are going to facepalm yourselves and whisper to yourselves, "Ah! Of course! Such a simple answer!" The correct answer ties all the seemingly disparate comments of this thread together. (Given @makesends previous comment, I suspect others have been lurking, knowing the answer, waiting on @JesusFan or @Carbon. The correct answer explains why the "office" of prophet no longer exists, and it explains why the WoF get it wrong, and it explains how conversion events like the one I previously described may occur (those are all hints, btw). It provides a unifying standard by which prophecy today can be correctly understood and when it must unilaterally be dismissed. It's not complicated.
The problem with those in the modern church who claim the office of prophet and also claim they are not adding to the word---they have stepped off the foundation and mostly don't even know it. Acts 2:17 does not say the office of prophet as we see in the OT will continue. It ceased with the apostolic age and the death of the apostles.
I appreciate that but it is not relevant to the answer to the question asked and there has been enough delay and obfuscation already. I would normally ask something like, "What's the rest of it?" or affirm the answer and ask you to say more, "Yep. That's good. Given what you've said, how can there be people today through whom the Spirit speaks prophetically without adding to scripture?" but @JesusFan prompted the inquiry and @Carbon thought to step in for JF, so I'd really like to hear from one of them, if you do not mind 🤗. They are the specific ones getting hung up by the inquiry.





How can it be said there are no prophets today when Acts 2:17 explicitly states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you two say we are in the last days?
 
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@Josheb

The last days started with Jesus’ first coming. And who do you think the last OT prophet was. None other than John the Baptist. Peter and James happened to be alive “Prophesying” in these last days. Jesus was, “prophet,” priest and king.
That is not an answer to the question asked.

Scripture states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you and @JesusFan say we are living in the last days. If we are living in the last days then, according to that premise, there must be people prophesying today in modern times. Explain how we can be in the last days and not have people prophesying when scripture clearly states people will prophesy in the last days.
All these things happened “in the last days” according to the prophet Joel.
Yes, and according to you and @JesusFan, we are still in the last days.


How can it be said there are no prophets today when Acts 2:17 explicitly states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you two say we are in the last days?


.
 
I think I might have missed this post....
Might be those who have the gift tp prophesy, that though is NOT occupying office of a prophet
On the right track but the answer has nothing to do with the "office" of prophet.


How can it be said there are no prophets today when Acts 2:17 explicitly states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you two say we are in the last days?


.
 
Acts 2 says there will be people prophesying in the last days. Scripture is notnonsense.
Of course there was. Do you know what a prophet is? Do you know what that office entails?
Peter (and Joel) stated there would be people prophesying in the last days. The conflict is not with scripture. The conflict exists within the position the last days exist, but prophets do not. How do you reconcile those two positions that you hold?
I believe I already provided you with an answer.

Did you say “reconcile?”
In other words, my observation has absolutely nothing to do with me or what I believe. I have simply cited a pair of verses stating people will prophecy in the last days and ask you and @JesusFan to explain how there could be no prophets if we are living in the last days (there is an explanatory answer, but neither one of you have provided it).
I believe I have provided a correct answer for you. If you don’t agree with it, hey, you’re entitled to your opinion.
 
Of course there was. Do you know what a prophet is? Do you know what that office entails?
ALL of that has already been covered earlier in the thread.
I believe I already provided you with an answer.
I understand that is what you believe but you are wrong.
Did you say “reconcile?”
Yes. I did. I have used several different words to help JesusFan understand the inquiry and the seeming problem to be resolved. Yes, I used the word "resolved."
I believe I have provided a correct answer for you.
You have not.
If you don’t agree with it, hey, you’re entitled to your opinion.
Non sequitur.

There are no entitlements in scripture other than those provided as an inheritance in Christ and everyone has an opinion. You're off topic AGAIN. I won't ask you the question again because this is now the third time you've obfuscated what should have otherwise been a very quick Q&A between @JesusFan and I.

@JesusFan, if you the answer is known then post it. If not, then simply say, "I don't know." Take note of what you previously said and what @Arial posted (because you're both on the correct track). Consider what @makesends posted because I think he correctly understands the inquiry ;) (although I do not believe anyone has caught on to the motive of the inquiry). You've argued there are not prophets today (clarifying that to say there is no "office" of prophet) and you have said we are living in the last days. Given those two premises.....


How can it be said there are no prophets today when Acts 2:17 explicitly states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you two say we are in the last days?


.
 
ALL of that has already been covered earlier in the thread.

I understand that is what you believe but you are wrong.

Yes. I did. I have used several different words to help JesusFan understand the inquiry and the seeming problem to be resolved. Yes, I used the word "resolved."

You have not.

Non sequitur.

There are no entitlements in scripture other than those provided as an inheritance in Christ and everyone has an opinion. You're off topic AGAIN. I won't ask you the question again because this is now the third time you've obfuscated what should have otherwise been a very quick Q&A between @JesusFan and I.

@JesusFan, if you the answer is known then post it. If not, then simply say, "I don't know." Take note of what you previously said and what @Arial posted (because you're both on the correct track). Consider what @makesends posted because I think he correctly understands the inquiry ;) (although I do not believe anyone has caught on to the motive of the inquiry). You've argued there are not prophets today (clarifying that to say there is no "office" of prophet) and you have said we are living in the last days. Given those two premises.....


How can it be said there are no prophets today when Acts 2:17 explicitly states there will be people prophesying in the last days and you two say we are in the last days?


.
Even though we disagree here. I still appreciate you brother. I’ll back off, I said my piece. I may add more.
 
If we are living in the last days, then there are prophets today. According to Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus stated one of the signs of the end of the age would be the existence of false prophets. If there are no modern-day prophets today, then even though the last days still exist it would/will be very easy to observe any false prophet because anyone and everyone who prophesies or claims to prophesy is false!
For the record here is how I understand prophecy

I believe prophecy existed in the OT and during the early church, but the nature of it has changed after the completion of the canon of Scripture. I believe, in these last days, “it is not about new revelations” but is more about applying and interpreting God's existing word in a relevant way for today’s context.

No longer is this a gift with the other 8 gifts (Charismata) but we now develop these, ie, window, knowledge, prophecy (as I explained it) through prayer and study of God’s word.
 
Even though we disagree here.
I do not believe we do disagree. I believe the minute you read the correct answer you will completely affirm what is posted. You'll then see where you were wrong without anyone having to point it out.
I still appreciate you brother.
You do not show it. Although I am catching on to the sop, the problem is not getting better despite my exhortation for improvement. .
I’ll back off, I said my piece. I may add more.
......

Thanks, but the question was asked of @JesusFan relevant to something he posted having to do with the op.
Oops, sorry.
That was twenty posts ago. Since then, three digressions, a critical personal insinuation and multiple examples of obfuscation have been posted. None of them helped @JesusFan answer the question asked.

If JF hasn't been in the forum today, so I'll wait to see if he has an answer to the question asked and if he hasn't responded by dinnertime, I'll post the answer.
 
I do not believe we do disagree.
Then you agree we are in the last days. Well it’s about time 😉
I believe the minute you read the correct answer you will completely affirm what is posted. You'll then see where you were wrong without anyone having to point it out.
Well, if we agree as you say then we would both be wrong, since you say I am wrong. It’s the logical conclusion, is it not? So accept a little bit of being wrong also.
 
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If prophecy continues and is infallible it competes with Scripture. If it is fallible, it redefines prophecy itself.

So, if the last days are "this age", the time period between the first and second coming of Christ, what does Acts 2:17 mean?

Since this prophecy of Joel is tied to Pentecost and the Spirit being poured out, it could refer to, not revelatory prophecy, but the preaching and teaching of the word as revealed in the apostles laying of the foundation of the church and extended--to Spirit filled believers preaching and teaching that word of God. Spreading the gospel, giving understanding of the word of God. Staying always on that foundation and not adding to it or taking away from it.

The problem with those in the modern church who claim the office of prophet and also claim they are not adding to the word---they have stepped off the foundation and mostly don't even know it. Acts 2:17 does not say the office of prophet as we see in the OT will continue. It ceased with the apostolic age and the death of the apostles.
It also equate the gift of prophecies as being the very same as occupying the office and role of a Prophet or Apostle, which none has since John passed away. That is very same misunderstanding Sda use to make Ellen White a Modern say prophetess of God
 
See Post #69 😏.

  1. Joel and Peter stated men and women would prophesy in the last days.
  2. According to Post 70, we have in the last days since Jesus' ascension.
  3. There are, therefore, modern-day prophets today.

Your response?

At the risk of recycling old content, what is the difference? How can someone prophecy and not be a prophet? How can prophecies be promised in the ast day and people not prophecy if we are still living in the last days?

Where does scripture mention something called an "office" of prophet? I mentioned the word "office" simply as a designator of role or position of leadership - one of meany that was neither permanent nor occupationally static or fixed - not as something separating some people from all others in the body of Christ. It's odd that you would assert the premise of an "office" in some other way because that is what the WoF does. Can you use the WoF definition and decry the WoF practice while asserting an alternative using the WoF definition? That would be circular reasoning.


If we are living in the last days, then there are prophets today. According to Matthew 24 and 25, Jesus stated one of the signs of the end of the age would be the existence of false prophets. If there are no modern-day prophets today, then even though the last days still exist it would/will be very easy to observe any false prophet because anyone and everyone who prophesies or claims to prophesy is false!

How is the conundrum reconciled?
It also equate the gift of prophecies as being the very same as occupying the office and role of a Prophet or Apostle, which none has since John passed away. That is very same misunderstanding Sda use to make Ellen White a Modern say prophetess of God
 
It also equate the gift of prophecies as being the very same as occupying the office and role of a Prophet or Apostle...
No, it doesn't.
Might be those who have the gift tp prophesy, that though is NOT occupying office of a prophet.
Remember soteriology is eschatological. Jesus was revealed in the last times, having appeared at the consummation of the ages. The ends of the ages fell during the NT era. What happened at Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2 but what was that? It was soteriology. The Holy Spirit fell upon select Jews who had gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost. As a consequence of the Spirit's work, about three thousand people were added to the Church, and God added more each day. From Acts 2 on the standard operating procedure when someone gets saved is that the HS comes upon them and they display various "gifts" or manifestations of that Spirit, one of which is prophecy. In Acts 2 they speak in tongues and Peter explains the prophets. The word of God kept spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to greatly increase in Jerusalem so much that even a great many Jewish priests were becoming obedient to the faith. Stephen, Philip, and Barnabas began preaching boldly, all of them explaining the prophets. Eventually Saul of Tarsus was changed by God and he immediately began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, increasing in strength and confounding Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ. Ananias, Cornelius, Peter and Paul had visions. Greeks (goy/Gentiles) were getting saved. The Holy Spirit began to fall upon the Gentiles in Caesarea, and the Jewish converts were amazed hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Peter returned to Jerusalem to report this inclusion of the goy. Some prophets went from Jerusalem to Antioch and foretold about a famine that would befall the world so the Christians in the Gentile lands began to sent offerings to Jerusalem via Barnabas and Saul. The Holy Spirit orchestrated moves to put Paul before the Gentiles, increasing the persecution of the Church(!) which God used to spread the gospel further and further. The conversions of Lydia and the jailer in Thyatira, established a woman as the goy host of a congregation, the Spirit having blocked Paul, Silas, and Timothy from going to Bithynia (we read this without little pause but it was an enormous event in first century Judaic experience). Having bad their way to Athens, where Paul debated the Stoics and Epicureans (Greek versions of the Sadducees and Pharisees, sorta ;)), Paul and his cohorts return to Ephesus where they find a group of people who follow Jesus but know only the Baptism of John. Once baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, Paul lays hands on them and the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

That is Joel 2.

It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams, your young men will see visions, and even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Days (plural), not day (singular). Every bit of it tied specifically to conversion. Many more than 3000 were gather at Pentecost. Many heard only what they perceived to be drunken ramblings. God added to the Church implies those who did not understand the manifestation of the Spirit hadn't been added. The synergist will say that's because they chose not to do os so; the chose not to believe, but the text assigns all the causality to God. The same thing happens every step of the way in dozen+ chapters I just summarized above. God poured out His Spiri on the children of Zion.

Who are the children (sons and daughters") of Zion?

To do justice to the answer would take a lengthy post (maybe two) but here's a brief summation. Everyone (presumably) understands Zion was the mountain on which Jerusalem sat. Many mistakenly think Zion is a reference to the temple, or the monarchy. One of the very first uses of the word occurs at 2 Samuel 5:7, when there was no temple.

2 Samuel 5:7
Nevertheless, David captured the stronghold of Zion, that is the city of David.

So "Zion," cannot be a reference to the temple. This verse draws an equivalence between the "stronghold" of Zion and the city of David. The city of David is the city of peace (Jeru = city; salem = peace). For centuries the Jews incorrectly thought the promised Messiah would establish an earthly kingdom and rule on the earth as a monarch as an heir of David. He would literally sit on a gold-clad chair and physically rule from a physical chair sitting physically on the earth.

Acts 2, where Joel 2 was fulfilled, bluntly corrects this hugely erroneous teaching within Judaism (and Judaized Christianity today). Peter, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit explicitly states the promise to seat one of David's descendants on an eternal throne was about the resurrection, not a gold-clad throne.

Acts 2:29-33
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God has sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to hades, nor did his flesh suffer decay. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Joel 2 is tied to the resurrection of Christ. Joel 2 is tied to 1 Samuel 8 and 2 Samuel 7 and a host of other OT prophecies all culminating with the resurrection of Christ and his NOT rotting in the grave. Joel 2 is fulfilled every time a person is brought to salvation in Christ, regenerated and indwelt with the Spirit of God. That is what started happening in the last days.
 
There are none today.

I have seen many "true" apostles, so they say.

Always wondered why they do not go into hospitals and the like and heal diseased and dying people. I am certain they would say that the person does not have enough faith.

According to 2 Corinthians 12:12, they should be able to do signs, wonders and miracles.

2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

Sounds like people want to put themselves on a pedestal aso other see adn believe how spiritually mature they are.

As @makesends said, wolves in sheeps clothing.
How would you read the text on this...
Joel 2:28-31
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
 
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