All redeemed as 'the Church'

[Marilyn C]

Saints are called Holy ones .

Yes, however the `root` of that is Christ and not of themselves.

 

[Marilyn C]

Holy = set apart (from sin, to God)

Obedience in the Holy Spirit leads to holiness (Ro 6:19)
Without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14).

And that holiness is from Christ and not of themselves.

 

[civic]

And that holiness is from Christ and not of themselves.

Quote the verse , thanks

 

[civic]

Yes, however the `root` of that is Christ and not of themselves.

1 Peter doesn’t say that .
Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

 

[Marilyn C]

Quote the verse , thanks

Heb. 7: 26 `For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners...`

Holy - Gk. `hosios` right (intrinsic or divine character).

1 Peter 15 holy - Gk. `hagios` sacred.

 

[Manfred]

Yes this is is what is the very popular thing to say.. to have it as both. But does scripture define it both ways?

Why are you arguing this?
Who is the bride of Christ?

All who are redeemed are part of the catholic church. Not RCC

 

[360watt]

Why are you arguing this?
Who is the bride of Christ?

All who are redeemed are part of the catholic church. Not RCC

Why? Because a church of all redeemed isn't in scripture as a current entity. A church of all redeemed doesn't happen till we are one local and visible church in the New Jerusalem.

All redeemed are in the Kingdom of God.. and the Family of God.. but are not one body of Christ. A body of Christ assembles, has ordinances, has a pastor, and teaching with members who support that church.

From the New Bible Dictionary, pg 229, 1962--

"Although we often speak of these NT congregations collectively as the NT church or the Early Church, no NT writer uses ekklessia is this collective way. An ekklessia was a meeting or assembly... Locality was essential to its character. The local ekklessia was not thought of as part of some worldwide ekklessia, which would have been a contradiction in terms"

From Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 196--

"Ekklessia: an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating."

From H.E. Dana: A Manual of Ecclesiology, 2nd ed., pg. 25--

"In classical use ekklessia meant an assembly. It was commonly used in reference to bodies of qualified representative called out for legislative functions"

So the bride of Christ is God's churches.. which have redeemed believers in them.. but not all redeemed are in the bride. They will be taken up at a different time to the faithful in God's churches.

The catholic, universal church keeps being confused with the Kingdom of God.. or the Family of God. Neither of these entities are a church. A church is a local body of Christ.

 

[Manfred]

Why? Because a church of all redeemed isn't in scripture as a current entity. A church of all redeemed doesn't happen till we are one local and visible church in the New Jerusalem.

That is like saying that the Omnipotence of God is not in scripture.

All redeemed are in the Kingdom of God.. and the Family of God.. but are not one body of Christ. A body of Christ assembles, has ordinances, has a pastor, and teaching with members who support that church.

From the New Bible Dictionary, pg 229, 1962--

"Although we often speak of these NT congregations collectively as the NT church or the Early Church, no NT writer uses ekklessia is this collective way. An ekklessia was a meeting or assembly... Locality was essential to its character. The local ekklessia was not thought of as part of some worldwide ekklessia, which would have been a contradiction in terms"

From Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 196--

"Ekklessia: an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating."

From H.E. Dana: A Manual of Ecclesiology, 2nd ed., pg. 25--

"In classical use ekklessia meant an assembly. It was commonly used in reference to bodies of qualified representative called out for legislative functions"

If all are in the family of God, then we are all in the Church that Jesus is building.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So the bride of Christ is God's churches.. which have redeemed believers in them.. but not all redeemed are in the bride. They will be taken up at a different time to the faithful in God's churches.

Explain? What do you mean by not all the redeemed are in the Bride

The catholic, universal church keeps being confused with the Kingdom of God.. or the Family of God. Neither of these entities are a church. A church is a local body of Christ.

The universal "invisible" church is the one Jesus is building, and all of the redeemed are in it.

 

[360watt]

That is like saying that the Omnipotence of God is not in scripture.

If all are in the family of God, then we are all in the Church that Jesus is building.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Explain? What do you mean by not all the redeemed are in the Bride

The universal "invisible" church is the one Jesus is building, and all of the redeemed are in it.

All that matters is how scripture defines what 'the church' is.

So all redeemed .. not all redeemed belong to a local church that God calls His own. So therefore the Bride.. God's churches.. don't have all redeemed in them.

To Matthew 16:18

Jesus is building His church here..

Things to notice:

1-- In Matthew 18:20 Jesus talks about the church again.. and it is local and visible. This is because it is about resolving sin issues in a local church. So.. Jesus isn't going to introduce one type of church in Matthew 16:18 and then contradict Himself in Matthew 18:20. It has got to be the same kind of local church. In the Matthew 16:18 case.. it is Jesus and His disiples as the first local body of Christ. (Although putting 'local' in front it.. is a bit nonsensical.. because it is local by nature)

2-- If the church is 'all redeemed'.. then it should begin with Old Testament saints.. but it does not.. it begins in the NT with Jesus and His disciples. Therefore.. it is NOT all redeemed. The Kingdom and Family of God were being added to in the OT as in the NT.. but not the 'church'.

A universal, invisible church of all redeemed is only ASSUMED to be true. Scripture doesn't describe this. All redeemed are in the Kingdom and Family. The church-- is a local church. Everytime. Even in the end when all believers gather as one. That is a local and visible church.

From Real Churches or a Fog by S.E. Anderson, pp. 22-23--

"To confuse church and kingdom gives rise to the un-Scriptural notion of a 'universal' church. Since 'church'' means an assembly, and since all Christians on earth never do assemble together in this life, then a 'universal' church is an utter, absolute impossibility."

 

[Manfred]

All that matters is how scripture defines what 'the church' is.

So all redeemed .. not all redeemed belong to a local church that God calls His own. So therefore the Bride.. God's churches.. don't have all redeemed in them.

To Matthew 16:18

Jesus is building His church here..

Things to notice:

1-- In Matthew 18:20 Jesus talks about the church again.. and it is local and visible. This is because it is about resolving sin issues in a local church. So.. Jesus isn't going to introduce one type of church in Matthew 16:18 and then contradict Himself in Matthew 18:20. It has got to be the same kind of local church. In the Matthew 16:18 case.. it is Jesus and His disiples as the first local body of Christ. (Although putting 'local' in front it.. is a bit nonsensical.. because it is local by nature)

2-- If the church is 'all redeemed'.. then it should begin with Old Testament saints.. but it does not.. it begins in the NT with Jesus and His disciples. Therefore.. it is NOT all redeemed. The Kingdom and Family of God were being added to in the OT as in the NT.. but not the 'church'.

A universal, invisible church of all redeemed is only ASSUMED to be true. Scripture doesn't describe this. All redeemed are in the Kingdom and Family. The church-- is a local church. Everytime. Even in the end when all believers gather as one. That is a local and visible church.

From Real Churches or a Fog by S.E. Anderson, pp. 22-23--

"To confuse church and kingdom gives rise to the un-Scriptural notion of a 'universal' church. Since 'church'' means an assembly, and since all Christians on earth never do assemble together in this life, then a 'universal' church is an utter, absolute impossibility."

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Ok, I will accept that you do not accept that Jesus is building His Church, but that you accept that Jesus builds many churches.

 

[Eleanor]

All that matters is how scripture defines what 'the church' is.

All that matters is what the word church (ekklesia) means as used in the NT, where it has two applications to companies of Christians:
1) the whole company of the redeemed (Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23)
2) singular - company consisting of professed believers (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 1:2, Gal 1:13, 1 Th 1:1, 2 Th 1:1, 1 Tim 3:5),
---plural - references to churches in a district

So all redeemed .. not all redeemed belong to a local church that God calls His own. So therefore the Bride.. God's churches.. don't have all redeemed in them.

You're confounding local assemblies with whole body of the redeemed wherever they are located (the church).

As in "the military," which includes all wherever they are located, as in my son home on leave.

To Matthew 16:18
Jesus is building His church here..
Things to notice:
1-- In Matthew 18:20 Jesus talks about the church again.. and it is local and visible. This is because it is about resolving sin issues in a local church. So.. Jesus isn't going to introduce one type of church in Matthew 16:18 and then contradict Himself in Matthew 18:20. It has got to be the same kind of local church. In the Matthew 16:18 case.. it is Jesus and His disiples as the first local body of Christ. (Although putting 'local' in front it.. is a bit nonsensical.. because it is local by nature)
2-- If the church is 'all redeemed'.. then it should begin with Old Testament saints.. but it does not...it begins in the NT with Jesus and His disciples. Therefore.. it is NOT all redeemed. The Kingdom and Family of God were being added to in the OT as in the NT.. but not the 'church'.

Indeed it does--in Ro 11, in the one olive tree of all God's people, the church, both OT and NT saints, going all the way back to Abraham.

A universal, invisible church of all redeemed is only ASSUMED to be true.

Only when the one bride of Christ, the church, is ASSUMED to be true (Eph 5:23, 30-32).

Scripture doesn't describe this. All redeemed are in the Kingdom and Family. The church-- is a local church. Everytime.

Not in Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23.

Even in the end when all believers gather as one. That is a local and visible church.

From Real Churches or a Fog by S.E. Anderson, pp. 22-23--

"To confuse church and kingdom gives rise to the un-Scriptural notion of a 'universal' church. Since 'church'' means an assembly, and since all Christians on earth never do assemble together in this life, then a 'universal' church is an utter, absolute impossibility."

Anderson got it wrong. The "universal church" is the whole company of the redeemed (Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23).

 

[360watt]

All that matters is what the word church (ekklesia) means as used in the NT, where it has two applications to companies of Christians:
1) the whole company of the redeemed (Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23)
2) singular - company consisting of professed believers (Ac 20:28, 1 Co 1:2, Gal 1:13, 1 Th 1:1, 2 Th 1:1, 1 Tim 3:5),
---plural - references to churches in a district

You're confounding local assemblies with whole body of the redeemed wherever they are located (the church).

As in "the military," which includes all wherever they are located, as in my son home on leave.

Indeed it does--in Ro 11, in the one olive tree of all God's people, the church, both OT and NT saints, going all the way back to Abraham.

Only when the one bride of Christ, the church, is ASSUMED to be true (Eph 5:23, 30-32).

Not in Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23.

Anderson got it wrong. The "universal church" is the whole company of the redeemed (Mt 16:18, Eph 1:22, 5:23).

Thanks for the reply,

The thing with Matthew 16:18 is that in Matthew 18:20.. later.. it's a local and visible assembly in question with the process for disciplining of believers in a church.

So why would Jesus introduce the church one way.. and then contradict Himself later? You don't find Jesus saying 'Now this is a different kind of church..' and then carry on to what He was saying. So it's local in both cases.

Matthew 16:18.. it's about Jesus with His disciples as the first church that would become the type of church unit that would continue through to be more churches Jesus calls His own.. as the disciples and then also apostles planted more.

 

[Eleanor]

Thanks for the reply,

The thing with Matthew 16:18 is that in Matthew 18:20.. later.. it's a local and visible assembly in question with the process for disciplining of believers in a church.

So why would Jesus introduce the church one way.. and then contradict Himself later? You don't find Jesus saying 'Now this is a different kind of church..' and then carry on to what He was saying. So it's local in both cases.

It's not either/or, it both/and.

My son is "military" whether assembled with the troops, or at home on leave.

Matthew 16:18.. it's about Jesus with His disciples as the first church that would become the type of church unit that would continue through to be more churches Jesus calls His own.. as the disciples and then also apostles planted more.

 

[360watt]

It's not either/or, it both/and.

My son is "military" whether assembled with the troops, or at home on leave.

Yes, so 'the military ' though.. is defined as all soldiers. When they come together in different Barracks.. do they have a different name for when they assemble?

The Kingdom of God and Family of God have all redeemed in them. But when believers assemble in different churches.. it's a different entity.

An entity within the Kingdom and Family.. but not THE Kingdom or Family.

That's the difference.

'The horse' is a magnificent animal.
This is the type of the horse. It isn't one universal horse. It is either Mr Ed down the road or one horse representing all horses.

Same goes with 'the bar', or 'the cat'

Visible and local.

'the military '. Doesn't gather as one entity..

But 'the mess' (I think this is an assembly within the military). ... Does . Different entities.


I understand the thinking of if the church at Corinth is all redeemed at Corinth then all you gotta do is enlarge it for it to be all redeemed full stop ... But that isn't how the bible defines how a NT church works.

All redeemed has no teaching or ordinances and does not gather. The church.. does. Different entities.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, so 'the military ' though.. is defined as all soldiers. When they come together in different Barracks.. do they have a different name for when they assemble?

The Kingdom of God and Family of God have all redeemed in them. But when believers assemble in different churches.. it's a different entity.

Not according to NT teaching, where it is all the one olive tree of God's people, the church.