All redeemed as 'the Church'

[360watt]

It is incredibly popular to have all redeemed being called 'the Church '. .. but is this scriptural?

All redeemed.. as one entity..

* Are unassembled
* Have no ordinances
* Have no doctrine
*Have no pastor
* Are not unified
* Are scattered every where

The New Testament church..

* Assembles
* Has ordinances
* Has a pastor
* Can be unified
* Is not scattered
* Has doctrine

How do we then call all redeemed 'the Church'?

It is no church. It won't be one until the New Jerusalem is formed

A church is local and visible. All redeemed are not.

 

[Deleted member 6]

The word "church" can mean a popular assembly, Acts 19:32, 39, 41; in NT the congregation of the children of Israel, Acts 7:38; transferred to the Christian body, of which the congregation of Israel was a figure, the Church, 1 Cor. 12:28; Col. 1:18; a local portion of the Church, a local church, Rom. 16:1; a Christian congregation, 1 Cor. 14:4, so "church" doesn't strictly mean the building at the corner of 5th & Main. It is also the body of Christ, of which He is the Head.

 

[Deleted member 6]

I got that from Mounce's Reverse Interlinear, BTW.

 

[360watt]

I got that from Mounce's Reverse Interlinear, BTW.

Yes, what you are saying is the popular way of looking at it. I am not talking of the church being a building. That is just bricks and mortar. So that is one definition of it that is not biblical. One definition of the church that is also popular but nothing to do with scripture.

So you have bought up the real popular thing of the body of Christ being all redeemed. So.. in what sense is a scattered, never meeting, no ordinances, no doctrine entity... a body?

The body of Christ IS the church. The church-- is an ecclessia.. which is a called out from their homes.. meeting or assembly/congregation. That's the definition Thayer has it as. He said that if ecclessia ever loses the idea of assembling or congregating.. it ceases to be a church.

So to scripture-- 1 Corinthians 12 has the body of Christ being defined. What body is this? It is the local church at Corinth. That is the body of Christ.. it's local and visible.

All redeemed will become one body of Christ.. but that hasn't happened.. we are not one body yet.. that won't happen till the New Jerusalem is formed.

Further proof texts:

Matthew 16:18-- Jesus speaks of building His church.

Matthew 18:20-- Jesus speaks of resolving sin issues in the church.

Two different kinds of churches? One universal and one local? No.. that would mean Jesus was contradicting Himself.. by introducing a universal church and then making it local later.

Ephesians-- 'there is one body one faith one baptism..'

Which body is in question? All redeemed, or the body AT Ephesus? Because the unity described in Ephesians is unity at the Ephesians local church.. not all redeemed.

Do you also know that 'there is' is an insertion? Bibles that are honest about it.. have it in italics as something that wasn't there in the original Greek. So it can read just 'one body, one faith, one baptism'

The difference.. ? It can mean ANY body of believers. .any church .. local and visible.

Ephesians is a letter sent to them to be distributed to other churches plural.

So you may say.. you can't have multiple bodies. There is only one. Well. .. the body of Christ is not Christ's literal body. It's body as in 'group' 'assembly' 'congregation'. So you can have the one Jesus Christ.. with many assemblies/congregations that He calls His.

There is a lot more to this also. We just blindly say 'The Church says this....' or 'The Church of England'.. or 'The Church is decline'.. but we never stop to really think about how the bible defines what all redeemed is and what a real church is.

All redeemed are part of the Family of God. And they are part of the Kingdom of God. But the body of Christ isn't the same thing as these entities. Just have a look at all the references of church in scripture.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Yes, what you are saying is the popular way of looking at it. I am not talking of the church being a building. That is just bricks and mortar. So that is one definition of it that is not biblical. One definition of the church that is also popular but nothing to do with scripture.

So you have bought up the real popular thing of the body of Christ being all redeemed. So.. in what sense is a scattered, never meeting, no ordinances, no doctrine entity... a body?

The body of Christ IS the church. The church-- is an ecclessia.. which is a called out from their homes.. meeting or assembly/congregation. That's the definition Thayer has it as. He said that if ecclessia ever loses the idea of assembling or congregating.. it ceases to be a church.

So to scripture-- 1 Corinthians 12 has the body of Christ being defined. What body is this? It is the local church at Corinth. That is the body of Christ.. it's local and visible.

All redeemed will become one body of Christ.. but that hasn't happened.. we are not one body yet.. that won't happen till the New Jerusalem is formed.

Further proof texts:

Matthew 16:18-- Jesus speaks of building His church.

Matthew 18:20-- Jesus speaks of resolving sin issues in the church.

Two different kinds of churches? One universal and one local? No.. that would mean Jesus was contradicting Himself.. by introducing a universal church and then making it local later.

Ephesians-- 'there is one body one faith one baptism..'

Which body is in question? All redeemed, or the body AT Ephesus? Because the unity described in Ephesians is unity at the Ephesians local church.. not all redeemed.

Do you also know that 'there is' is an insertion? Bibles that are honest about it.. have it in italics as something that wasn't there in the original Greek. So it can read just 'one body, one faith, one baptism'

The difference.. ? It can mean ANY body of believers. .any church .. local and visible.

Ephesians is a letter sent to them to be distributed to other churches plural.

So you may say.. you can't have multiple bodies. There is only one. Well. .. the body of Christ is not Christ's literal body. It's body as in 'group' 'assembly' 'congregation'. So you can have the one Jesus Christ.. with many assemblies/congregations that He calls His.

There is a lot more to this also. We just blindly say 'The Church says this....' or 'The Church of England'.. or 'The Church is decline'.. but we never stop to really think about how the bible defines what all redeemed is and what a real church is.

All redeemed are part of the Family of God. And they are part of the Kingdom of God. But the body of Christ isn't the same thing as these entities. Just have a look at all the references of church in scripture.

The church is the body of Christ which is both local and global. It’s not an either/or proposition but both.

 

[360watt]

The church is the body of Christ which is both local and global. It’s not an either/or proposition but both.

Yes this is is what is the very popular thing to say.. to have it as both. But does scripture define it both ways?

We speak of 'the dog' and 'the horse' and we never mean one universal dog or universal horse

We mean the species of the dog... All dogs plural. Or Rex down the rd. Same with the horse.. it's the species of the horse.. all horses.. or its Ed down the rd.

The same is true of 'the church'.

It's either the type of the church.. the individual unit. Not one in particular but one representative of all.. Or it is a particular one.

Arthur Pink wrote about this in his article on The Churches of God.

I'm no Calvinist..but he was and still believed the same as I do about 'the church '

 

[Eleanor]

It is incredibly popular to have all redeemed being called 'the Church '. .. but is this scriptural?

All redeemed.. as one entity..
* Are unassembled
* Have no ordinances
* Have no doctrine
*Have no pastor
* Are not unified
* Are scattered every where
The New Testament church..
* Assembles
* Has ordinances
* Has a pastor
* Can be unified
* Is not scattered
* Has doctrine

How do we then call all redeemed 'the Church'?
It is no church. It won't be one until the New Jerusalem is formed
A church is local and visible. All redeemed are not.

The same way we call the body of Christ the church.

All redeemed are the body of Christ (1 Co 12:3), the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:23, 5:23).

Redeemed = body of Christ = church.

The redeemed are "the Church."

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, what you are saying is the popular way of looking at it. I am not talking of the church being a building. That is just bricks and mortar. So that is one definition of it that is not biblical. One definition of the church that is also popular but nothing to do with scripture.

So you have bought up the real popular thing of the body of Christ being all redeemed. So.. in what sense is a scattered, never meeting, no ordinances, no doctrine entity... a body?

That is not the meaning of "body" in body of Christ.

It is in the marital sense of the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:30-33), not a local gathering.

All the redeemed are the wife (bride) of Christ, who is his body in the sense of the marital union.

All the redeemed are the church, the called-out assembly (people of God).
They don't have to be in assembly to be the people of God, the redeemed.

We have the visible church; i.e., all who profess to be Christian, wheat and tares together.
And we have the invisible church; i.e., all the wheat among the tares, who are the true church.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes this is is what is the very popular thing to say.. to have it as both. But does scripture define it both ways?

Yes, it does when it addresses a community of believers as the body of Christ, and when it states each is a part of it (1 Co 2:27).

 

[Marilyn C]

It is incredibly popular to have all redeemed being called 'the Church '. .. but is this scriptural?

All redeemed.. as one entity..

* Are unassembled
* Have no ordinances
* Have no doctrine
*Have no pastor
* Are not unified
* Are scattered every where

The New Testament church..

* Assembles
* Has ordinances
* Has a pastor
* Can be unified
* Is not scattered
* Has doctrine

How do we then call all redeemed 'the Church'?

It is no church. It won't be one until the New Jerusalem is formed

A church is local and visible. All redeemed are not.

`For the Body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are ONE BODY, so also is Christ.` (1 Cor. 12: 12)

The Church, the ekklesia, the called out ones from Israel and the nations - the new man rising to a perfect, (mature) man. (Eph. 2: 15, 4: 13)

 

[360watt]

`For the Body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are ONE BODY, so also is Christ.` (1 Cor. 12: 12)

The Church, the ekklesia, the called out ones from Israel and the nations - the new man rising to a perfect, (mature) man. (Eph. 2: 15, 4: 13)

Israel in the wilderness weren't the New Testament ecclessia. But they were still a visible and local ecclessia.

Jerusalem.. local and visible church
Antioch .. same
Ephesus .. same
Corinth.. same
Loadicea.. same
Phillipi... same

And so on..

1 Corinthians 12.. has the body of Christ defined and it's the church at Corinth. The ecclessia at Corinth. That means it is not Christ's literal body.. and is a group or assembly.. so there can be many bodies.

One Jesus with many bodies of believers He calls His own.

Ephesians... 'there is one body, one faith, one baptism etc...'

'There is' is an insertion for Bibles that are honest about it. It is not there in the Greek.

So it can be 'one body, one faith, one baptism '

The difference? It means it can be ANY body.

This case is the body at Ephesus.

So .. the body of Christ is local . Everytime.

Even when all believers assemble as one body in the New Jerusalem it is a local and visible church.

 

[Eleanor]

`For the Body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are ONE BODY, so also is Christ.` (1 Cor. 12: 12)

The Church, the ekklesia, the called out ones from Israel and the nations - the new man rising to a perfect, (mature) man. (Eph. 2: 15, 4: 13)

Actually, the whole people of God are the church, both OT (Ac 7:38) and NT are the church (ekklesia).

 

[Marilyn C]

Actually, the whole people of God are the church, both OT (Ac 7:38) and NT are the church (ekklesia).

And where does it say that?

 

[Marilyn C]

Israel in the wilderness weren't the New Testament ecclessia. But they were still a visible and local ecclessia.

Jerusalem.. local and visible church
Antioch .. same
Ephesus .. same
Corinth.. same
Loadicea.. same
Phillipi... same

And so on..

1 Corinthians 12.. has the body of Christ defined and it's the church at Corinth. The ecclessia at Corinth. That means it is not Christ's literal body.. and is a group or assembly.. so there can be many bodies.

One Jesus with many bodies of believers He calls His own.

Ephesians... 'there is one body, one faith, one baptism etc...'

'There is' is an insertion for Bibles that are honest about it. It is not there in the Greek.

So it can be 'one body, one faith, one baptism '

The difference? It means it can be ANY body.

This case is the body at Ephesus.

So .. the body of Christ is local . Everytime.

Even when all believers assemble as one body in the New Jerusalem it is a local and visible church.

God the Father `put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the Church which is His Body the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

 

[Eleanor]

And where does it say that?

Ro 11 where the one olive tree of God's people, the church.
which goes all the way back to Abraham and the patriarchs, who are its holy root (Heb 11:16),
from which olive tree unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17-22),
and whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, the church, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have been for 2,000 years now, and counting.

Israel is called the church (ekklesia) in the wilderness in Ac 7:38.

 

[Marilyn C]

Ro 11 where the one olive tree of God's people, the church.
which goes all the way back to Abraham and the patriarchs, who are its holy root (Heb 11:16),
from which olive tree unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17-22),
and whose destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, the church, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have been for 2,000 years now, and counting.

Israel is called the church (ekklesia) in the wilderness in Ac 7:38.

Thank you. However, the `root` is Jesus for only He is holy, and able to nourish us. (`holy root & partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.`) Israel is not holy and does not nourish us.

And yes Israel is called the church, the ekklesia, the called out ones - called out from the nations.

The Body of Christ is also the ekklesia, the called out ones - called out from Israel and the nations.

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you. However, the `root` is Jesus for only He is holy, and able to nourish us. (`holy root & partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.`) Israel is not holy and does not nourish us.

And yes Israel is called the church, the ekklesia, the called out ones - called out from the nations.

The Body of Christ is also the ekklesia, the called out ones - called out from Israel and the nations.

The root is the holy patriarchs, from which the trunk (Jesus) proceeds.

 

[Marilyn C]

The root is the holy patriarchs, from which the trunk (Jesus) proceeds.

Only Christ is HOLY.

 

[civic]

Only Christ is HOLY.

Saints are called Holy ones .

 

[Eleanor]

Only Christ is HOLY.

Holy = set apart (from sin, to God)

Obedience in the Holy Spirit leads to holiness (Ro 6:19)
Without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14).