1000 year reigning and ruling of Jesus after Second Coming event
1000 years of Revelation 20.
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The Second and physical resurrection still yet to come , as is an Antichrist figure
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That isn't where it says that. That is how you interpret what it says. Could you be wrong? A literal thousand-year reign in Jerusalem is never explicitly stated. And if that were the case, that would be (according to premils) the glorious promised second coming of Christ, wouldn't you think explicit mention would be front and center? Mentioned again and again. But it was not. Not by Jesus and not by the apostles. A single passage in Revelation is presumed to mean that. That passage was a vision, in the genre of apocalyptic prophecy, in a book that sends its message through symbolic images and numbers. And the reason it is presumed to mean that is because the reader has set a hermeneutical focus on the nation Israel and the Jewish people when interpreting the OT, instead of where it belongs from Gen forward---on the Redeemer.
Consider that.
I understand why you view it as that, and just think that Covenant premil is a viable option one can hold from biblical Eschatology perspective
Josheb
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She is asking you where in the epistles is the Messianic kingdom discussed?
Where might we find what you call the "Messianic kingdom" discussed in the epistles? In other words, the answer to that question would require you to specify a verse or passage found in the New Testament letters. You'll have to cite chapter and verse of some epistle.
Non sequitur.
Revelation 1:1-3 NAS
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:1-3 ESV
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Revelation 1:1-3 KJV
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 1:1-3 BLB
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His servants what is necessary to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, as much as he saw. 3Blessed is the one reading and those hearing the words of the prophecy and keeping the things written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1:1-3 LSV
1A revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to Him to show to His servants what things must quickly come to pass; and He signified [it], having sent through His messenger to His servant John, 2who testified [to] the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things as he also saw. 3Blessed is he who is reading, and those hearing the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it, for the time is near!
Revelation 1:1-3 YLT
1A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John, 2who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see. 3Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it — for the time is nigh!
These are six of the most literal, or formal, translation of the text into English. You have stated everything after chapter four is in the far, far distant future - a future multiple millennia away from the time when John wrote what he was told to write down - and I have replied by stating scripture proves otherwise. The book of Revelation explicitly states what Jesus gave to John was going to take place quickly and the reason it was going to take place quickly is because the time was near. The Greek word is "engys" which transliterally mean "at hand" ("en" = in/at; "gys" = hand). If you do a survey of the word "near," or "engys" in the New Testament you will find there is not one example in which the word "near" is used to mean anything other than near. The futurist translation of the word is the normative AND statistical outlier. It is the futurist interpretation that contradicts ALL the New Testament uses of the word "engys". Furthermore, as I have already posted, verse 19 of that same chapter states about two-thirds of Revelation were either in John's past or events occurring at the time when John wrote what he was instructed to write.
Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
- Things that you have seen (prior to the vision being provided, prior to writing anything down).
- Things that are.
- Things that will take place after what he's seen and what was.
Only a third of Revelation is said by Jesus to be about the future! The part that is about the future was previously stated to occur quickly because the time was near. This is what is stated in the introduction of the entire revelation of Revelation. Jesus himself qualifies his own revelation. He explicitly states to John the events he will reveal are near, or at hand and most of it had already occurred. Then, at the end of the entire revelation of Revelation, Jesus states the following.
Revelation 22:7-10
7“And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” 8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” 10And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."
The book of Revelation opens and closes with the revelation what is described is near, or at hand. What the text does NOT states is "It will be near to the time when the events happen." Not only is that not what the text states but that interpretation is nonsensically circular. It is the equivalent to saying it will happen when it happens and that removes both the imminent urgency and the prophetic nature of the revelation. ALL of the content about the scrolls is a reference to Daniel.
Daniel 12:
4But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.......... 8But as for me, I heard but did not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time.
Daniel was told to seal up the prophecy until the end time. The end time came in the first century and John witnessed the unsealing of the prophecy and, at the end of the revelation, he was told to leave the prophecy unsealed. Why was he told to leave the prophecy unsealed? Because the time was at hand.
Now let's go back a few posts...
@Arial is asking you for scripture, not a regurgitation of doctrine or personal commentary. She is asking you where in the epistolary of the New Testament we might find your view of the Messianic kingdom discussed. Where might we find Paul, Peter, James, John, or the author of Hebrews discussing the Messianic kingdom as you define it? She's asking you for scripture. She is asking you for scripture and I, for one, share her interest (and I suspect other participants in this thread do, too).
I just provided scripture. I just took what I previously posted did what she's asking you to do. I provided the scripture proving what I posted. I provided only scripture. I did not add one word of doctrinal or personal interpretation to any of it. Scripture and scripture alone. Scripture and scripture posted and read exactly as written. Can you do likewise for what you have posted?
Show me the scripture, please. More specifically, please post the place(s) where we might find that discussed in the New Testament's epistolary.
Thank you for your patience, perseverance, and forbearance. Thank you ahead of time for posting the scriptures requested.
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Why don't the apostles ever talk about it? Why didn't Jesus ever talk about this thousand-year reign? How can you think your premil view is biblically sound if you can't even find the answer to the questions posed in the Bible? The answers to why it is believed to not be sound have been given from Scritpure.
Josheb
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"viable"? Perhaps. Is it the most viable, or the best of all the possibilities? When you get done providing @Arial and I with the discussion of the premillennial Messianic kingdom in the epistles, I'm wondering if you can provide a verse from any of the apocalyptic texts of the New Testament that specifically, actually, explicitly states Jesus is physically on the earth prior to the 1000 years of Revelation 20.
Jesus returns to earth and is at Battle of Armageddon
Isaiah 65:20
No longer will there be in it an infant who lives only a few days, Or an old person who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of a hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of a hundred Will be thought accursed.
No longer will there be in it an infant who lives only a few days, Or an old person who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of a hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of a hundred Will be thought accursed.
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Satan enabled them to do something God did not enable them to do?? That's a strange use of the word, "enable".
Josheb
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What is the op about?
There are a few things to consider. John, an apostle, wrote Revelation, so an apostle did talk about it. However, let's go back to an important question asked to Jesus by the disciples. Let's break it down since it looks interesting.
Question: "Will you now..." To keep this short, the disciples seem to be asking if Jesus will determinantly do something at that moment.
"return" - give back, return, start again?
"the kingdom" - to me this sounds like it is speaking of the kingdom with a line of kings starting from Saul and ending with Nebuchadnezzar's attack on Jerusalem. Since it ends wtih "to Israel", that strengthens it for me. The question to consider outside of this is, returning it from who? God? Perhaps. The Gentiles? Perhaps. I'm not saying I have the answer. Hence... consider. Consider that Nebuchadnezzar is the one God used to end the kingdom in Israel, and there is a prophecy that specifically states that Nebuchadnezzar is the start of the times of the Gentiiles. This time of the Gentiles has a kingdom as a bookend. A rock not cut by human hands that destroys the whole statue, which means that the times of the Gentiles ends at that point, and this kingdom grows to encompass the whole Earth. Just as the Messianic Kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament.
The question to consider is, what does it mean to return/give back/startup again the kingdom in Israel? What does it take to do that? A King. But more than that. It requires a child of royalty that is the heir to the throne. So why did the disciples ask if Jesus would now start up the kingdom again in Israel? Well, first, they know Jesus is the Messiah and is also in the line of David. Jesus has a claim to the throne. Secondly, they know the prophecies and they know eschatology, even if they didn't understand how it all worked out. They knew the Messiah would come in Israel's most dire hour, destroy their enemies, and establish a kingdom. They thought Jesus was going to destroy Rome.
Did Jesus say that He wasn't going to start up the kingdom again? No. He basically said it wasn't now, and it wasn't any of the disciples business to know when it would happen. That is the business of the Father who has established the time when Jesus would return the Kingdom to Israel. Do note that this all came up after Jesus spent 40 days with the disciples teaching them of the kingdom.
The returned kingdom is the Messianic Kingdom. Revelation calls it the Millennial Kingdom. Do note that it comes after Jesus destroys all the Gentiles who come to destroy Israel. His coming puts an end to the times of the Gentiles. The beast/antichrist is of the Gentiles.
Josheb
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The disciples asking that question as Luke records in Acts 1 did not know any of what you just posted. They hadn't experienced anything later accomplished at Pentecst and that would include the revelation the promises of a Davidic thrown pertained to the resurrection Christ not rotting in the grave. Jesus never said he was going to come and establish and earthly kingdom like David's. David's monarchy (along with all the other human monarchies) was an abomination to God. Scripture later states Jesus will return for a salvation that has nothing to do with sin. He came the first time to bear sin. That's how Acts 11:1 should be understood. He will come a second time NOT to bear sin, but to nonetheless bring a salvation apart from sin. To bring salvation, not an earthly monarchy.
So why would the question be based on something knowledge-lacking disciples asked?
Matthew 20:20-23
20Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of him. 21And he said to her, “What do you desire?” She said to Him, “Say that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine shall sit, one at your right, and one at your left.” 22But Jesus replied, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They *said to him, “We are able.” 23He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit at my right and at my left is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
Their individual and collective ignorance was palpable.
Yes, he did. He said it in 1 Samuel 8 and again in Acts 2:30. Sadly, many Christians think like the Jews thought/think.
Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, 11and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.”
Hebrews 9:24-28
24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
The watched him leave as Lord and Savior and he'll be observed coming again as Lord and Savior.
God never wanted an earthly monarch. He took the request for an earthly monarch like other kings to be an offense, a rejection of Him as their King. He if was King over all of Israel prior to 1 Samuel 8 then why/how can He not be King at all times? That is the question to be asked. Why were the disciples still so ignorant?
Jesus stated to the Apostles that the Kingdom of a messiah rule was not for right then and there, but first the Gospel was to be preached, as the rest would happen at Second coming time
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