“The Great Tribulation“

[CrowCross]

The word tribulation must be defined as it is used

Remember No signs were given to wonder after. Its natural unconverted mankind that seeks after one. Believers have prophecy till the end. .

In that way tribulation is tribulation. . nothing more. . nothing less Joy is Joy nothing more nothing less ?

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty,(but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

tribulation,= poverty
tribulation, = Joy

Revelation 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Great tribulation for one Great Joy the other. Goats and sheep

2 Corinthians 7:4Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

Yoked with Christ our burdens or tribulations can be lighter

Matthew 2:10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

No different than the words "the Father is greater than I" . Greater in respect to position not person.( Christ is the sufferings of great tribulation person )

The time of reformation had comes the period of time when God gave over the faithless Jew to do that which they should not of they desired. and demanded Samael to have a visible king reign over them like all the sounding pagans nation. . there foundation . . "Out of sight out of of mind" Like that of Cain ; Where is your little brother? "I know not where my bible thumping little brother Abel is. Did you check your pocket LOL

No faith alone coming from hearing the living word of God .





had came to wnd the veil was rent there was no King ofkings siting in the holy place of God Kings in isreal the awmbnation of deslation came to a end . The jew thate were tusting thei ding flesh could profit for some a great traunblion for the fauikless jew one like never before or ever again A grat joy for the born gain jew and gentile .the wals fel down .sepeting the jeih whomaen fro paipating in the ceriniie *heisdh men olnl club . ndither hidg al saeeding the jws form the geniles ,a gosppel xposion ne like never before or ebver agin mixed fmailies hd the frddom to ce togher as ne new bor agin fnily

You forgot “the time of Jacob’s trouble”—which has as one purposes of bringing Israel back to the Lord.

This time period begins after the rapture of the church....and last for 7 years. Not only will it effect Israel but it will also effect the population of the rest of the world. It will not be happy times.

 

[Mr GLee]

You forgot “the time of Jacob’s trouble”—which has as one purposes of bringing Israel back to the Lord.

This time period begins after the rapture of the church....and last for 7 years. Not only will it effect Israel but it will also effect the population of the rest of the world. It will not be happy times.

Thanks that adds to the doctrine

Jerimiah 30 : 6-7 “Ask this question and consider it:Can a man have a baby? Of course not!Then why do I see every strong man holding his stomach like a woman having labor pains? Why is everyone’s face turning white like a dead man? This is a very important time for Jacob. This is a time of great trouble There will never be another time like this, but Jacob will be saved.

Those signs as metaphors are used in paroles they were fulifled in the new testament

:Can a man have a baby? Paul is used to represent Christian fellowship as the mother us us all (the bride of Christ .the specials care for the household of faith .Paul is shown suffering as in pain of birth until Christ the teacher was formed in Timothy

Galatians 4: 19 My little children, I am in pain again over you, like a mother giving birth. I will feel this pain until people can look at you and see Christ. .

Then as a surrogate Mom Paul promises Timothy in marriage to Christ the head of the bride

2 Corinthians 11:2 CSB For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy, because I have promised you in marriage to one husband—to present a pure virgin to Christ

Therefore fulling the prophecy in Isaiah 62. God promising to rename the bride previously Israel to a new name the father named her in Act.

Christian a name that means residents of the city of Christ ,Named after her founder of the heavenly city an d husband Christ

,A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world

Isaiah 62:62 I love Zion, so I will continue to speak for her. I love Jerusalem, so I will not stop speaking. I will speak until goodness[a] shines like a bright light, until salvation burns bright like a flame. Then all nations will see your goodness. All kings will see your honor. Then you will have a new name that the Lord himself will give you You will be like a beautiful crown that the Lord holds up, like a king’s crown in the hand of your God. You will never again be called ‘The People God Left.’ Your land will never again be called ‘The Land God Destroyed. 'You will be called ‘The People God Loves.’Your land will be called ‘God’s Bride, 'because the Lord loves you, and your land will be his.[b]As a young man takes a bride and she belongs to him, so your land will belong to your children.[c]As a man is happy with his new wife, so your God will be happy with you.

 

[Josheb]

There are many problem with this line of thought....Why????.....Because there is a lot of events in the book of Revelation that haven't happened yet.

You mean there are a lot of events that haven't yet happened according to your interpretation of the texts. Furthermore, this op is not about "lots of event in the book of Revelation." It is about the great tribulation (see forum rules 3 and 6).

I think the op very good, mostly correct, and a fairly good representation of what is plainly stated in God's word when His word is read as written. For example, there are only two places in the New Testament where the exact phrase "great tribulation" occurs and both of them report Christians experiencing the great tribulation. Therefore, the only two explicit mentions of the great tribulation themselves preclude any and all pre-tribulational interpretations, like those found commonly in premillennialism. It's not scripture that is wrong.; it is pre-tribulationalism that is wrong. It is the premillennialists interpretation of scripture that leads to the incorrect view of the great tribulation. Likewise, if the text of scripture is read exactly as written with the normal meaning of words in their ordinary usage then the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking would be the ones to whom the "you" in Matthew 24 is about. It does not matter if we know what specifically fulfilled the prophecy because we know it was the "you" of the disciples in attendance that were handed over to tribulation and saw the great tribulation come after all the things listed in Jesus' answer to their question. In other words, if no interpretation was added, and the text read exactly as written, then the great tribulation has happened. It is only a different interpretation of the text that would argue otherwise.

 

[Mr GLee]

You mean there are a lot of events that haven't yet happened according to your interpretation of the texts. Furthermore, this op is not about "lots of event in the book of Revelation." It is about the great tribulation (see forum rules 3 and 6).

I think the op very good, mostly correct, and a fairly good representation of what is plainly stated in God's word when His word is read as written. For example, there are only two places in the New Testament where the exact phrase "great tribulation" occurs and both of them report Christians experiencing the great tribulation. Therefore, the only two explicit mentions of the great tribulation themselves preclude any and all pre-tribulational interpretations, like those found commonly in premillennialism. It's not scripture that is wrong.; it is pre-tribulationalism that is wrong. It is the premillennialists interpretation of scripture that leads to the incorrect view of the great tribulation. Likewise, if the text of scripture is read exactly as written with the normal meaning of words in their ordinary usage then the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking would be the ones to whom the "you" in Matthew 24 is about. It does not matter if we know what specifically fulfilled the prophecy because we know it was the "you" of the disciples in attendance that were handed over to tribulation and saw the great tribulation come after all the things listed in Jesus' answer to their question. In other words, if no interpretation was added, and the text read exactly as written, then the great tribulation has happened. It is only a different interpretation of the text that would argue otherwise.

You offered . . if the text of scripture is read exactly as written with the "normal meaning" of words in their ordinary usage then the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking would be the ones to whom the "you" in Matthew 24 is about.

The question is the "ordinary use" of a parable, comparing the temporal seen (historical) to the unseen eternal things of God.

A terrible tribulation for the Jew that was trusting his dying flesh could profit for something. One like never before or ever again. A great joy for the believing Jew and gentile they could now gather together as one new creature. The new nation Christain.

The walls (2) of separation fell down.

Not a sign to wonder after. No signs were given, we have prophecy till the end of time

 

[Josheb]

You offered . . if the text of scripture is read exactly as written with the "normal meaning" of words in their ordinary usage then the disciples to whom Jesus was speaking would be the ones to whom the "you" in Matthew 24 is about.

The question is the "ordinary use" of a parable...

No, it's not. Matthew 24 is not a parable.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, it's not. Matthew 24 is not a parable.

I would offer in the previous chapter. The Spiritual words of Christ spoken by the Son of man Jesus, the apostle . . . .declared it is made to no does . . .not wait for lying sign to wonder after. Signs to wonder after the anti gospel

There should have not been any chapter division when. . . he stepped out of the AoD for the last time

The disciples that walked by sight in effect said "are you blind?" Don't you see all the glory as will of dying mankind . Then in the twinkling of the eye he sat on the highest mountain to represent kingdoms of this world the one spoken of in Revelation 11

Mathew 24:1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It was the sign. Signs follow prophecy. We are not to seek after the king of lying signs to wonder after. Again, Signs follow prophecy.

Prophecy produces livng Emanual Belief

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Josheb]

I would offer in the previous chapter.....

You can "offer" all you like but the phrase "spiritual words" doesn't occur anywhere in the narrative cited. Parables are told in the narrative, but the narrative itself, the narrative as a whole, is not a parable. Jesus telling the Pharisees, "you house is left to you desolate," is not parable. Jesus telling the apostles, "there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down," is not parable. Both sentences have meaning beyond but not separate from or in contradiction to what is plainly stated, read as written with the normal meaning of the words in ordinary usage.

 

[Mr GLee]

You can "offer" all you like but the phrase "spiritual words" doesn't occur anywhere in the narrative cited. Parables are told in the narrative, but the narrative itself, the narrative as a whole, is not a parable. Jesus telling the Pharisees, "you house is left to you desolate," is not parable. Jesus telling the apostles, "there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down," is not parable. Both sentences have meaning beyond but not separate from or in contradiction to what is plainly stated, read as written with the normal meaning of the words in ordinary usage.

Hi thanks. I would offer.
Parables much more than good bedtimes stories of never never land (shadows.

Prophecy as a parable . comparing the spiritual to eternal things unseen the invisible The signified understanding dying things showing the power of faith to faith as it is written the gospel

Parables teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of Gold . the whole period of time there were kings in Israel was a parable signified understanding. the time of first reformation had come. Those ceremonial shadows disappeared giving us the vison of faith Christ labor of love

A good example in reveled in Luke nine there in order to tech them to walk by faith the understanding of the unseen God One parable right ftr another hiding the unsen undersnding of Ghit's power faith .

On one occasion bewildered the other apostles thought Jesus went off his rocker .They elected a new Alfa Dog .

Most like the most misunderstood man that ever walked on water even his own family thought he went of the deep end.

in the last parable the faithless Jew when thinking Jesus was going to Jerusalem the Jews they ended up amongst the gentile

In there lack of faith they demanded God bring down fire and consume them (the pagan foundation out of sight out of mind). the same Ike I know not where Abel is . . . did you check the corn field, or outhouse? he rebuked the apostle's and revealed they had not faith of Christ by which they could please the invisible head

Marveling wondering is not exercising saving faith

Its wondering after the king of lying amazing sign to wonder after. we have amazing prophecy till the end.no need to wonder.

Luke 9:42;55 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying(parable ), and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of

The proper mixing instructions must be used or it reman, literal temporal

.2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Parables do not change the simplicity of the gospel. God saves some of dying mankind more of enrich it giving it rainbow color

 

[CrowCross]

You mean there are a lot of events that haven't yet happened according to your interpretation of the texts.

Yup, my interpretation....and what? Your interpretation is the correct interpretation?

 

[Josheb]

Yup, my interpretation....and what? Your interpretation is the correct interpretation?

1) You're changing the subject, and 2) I did not interpret.

My point is very direct, plain, and simple. In Post #2 you stated there are many problems in the op, "...Because there is a lot of events in the book of Revelation that haven't happened yet," BUT the more accurate statement necessarily includes, "...according to my interpretation." Any you have now acknowledged that fact.

Yup, my interpretation....and what?

And now that we agree you feel the need to tu quoque,

Your interpretation is the correct interpretation?

...even though the reverse is not applicable. How about we stick with the original point? That point is that your disagreement with the op exists solely as a function of interpretation, and an interpretation not shared by much of Christendom, an interpretation that was largely invented in the 19th century.

There are many alternative interpretations. One of them is not to interpret anything in scripture unnecessarily . When scripture is not altered by post-NT-era man-made end times doctrines many of the events, most of the events of the book of Revelation have happened. It says so right in the book itself.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

Before the revelation of Revelation was provided, John was told to write down 1) things he'd seen, 2) things which are, and 3) the things that will take place after those things. In other words, some of what wrote down in Revelation were things he'd seen (before the revelation of Revelation was revealed). Those were the things John had seen. Some of what John wrote down were things that were. They were conditions or events existing or occurring at the time of his writing. Neither the things that he'd seen, nor the things that were..... are things occurring in the future. The only part of what John wrote done in Revelation that is future to John's writing them down is the things which will take place after these things.

In other words, if we do not add any interpretation then the book itself tells us only about a third of what's written is in John's future.

But we cannot have that because that would mean there are a lot of mistakes in Christian eschatologies.

Well, yes, we can have it. We should discard anything that does not reconcile with plainly read scripture, and bend our eschatology to what is written, not what post-scriptural man-made doctrines tell us to think.

There are many problem with this line of thought....Why????.....Because there is a lot of events in the book of Revelation that haven't happened yet.

.....Because there is a lot of events in the book of Revelation that haven't happened yet based on the interpretation to which I hold.

That has NOTHING to do with my interpretation. Acknowledging the inherent bias in your own statement has NOTHING to do with my interpretation. The essence of Post 2's dissent is "My interpretation is better than yours." Your interpretation is better than @Buff Scott Jr.'s.

 

[CrowCross]

My point is very direct, plain, and simple. In Post #2 you stated there are many problems in the op, "...Because there is a lot of events in the book of Revelation that haven't happened yet," BUT the more accurate statement necessarily includes, "...according to my interpretation." Any you have now acknowledged that fact.

That is true....Revelations hasn't happened yet.

 

[Josheb]

That is true....Revelations hasn't happened yet.

....according to your interpretation of scripture and doctrinal biases!

Revelation itself tells us much of it has already happened. Why is what is plainly stated in verse 1:19 not accepted and believed exactly as written without any added "interpretation"?

Revelation 1:19 BLB
Therefore, write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to take place after these...

I'll tell you the exact same thing I elsewhere just said to another poster. I am not trying to be snarky or unnecessarily confrontational. My inquiry is sincere and asked in hopes of an honest, forthcoming, and equally sincere self-disclosing answer.

Given the evidence explicitly stated in Revelation 1:19, how can it be claimed the entirety of (or most of) Revelation has not yet happened?

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation itself tells us much of it has already happened. Why is what is plainly stated in verse 1:19 not accepted and believed exactly as written without any added "interpretation"?

None of Rev has happened yet. Rev is still future.

 

[Josheb]

None of Rev has happened yet. Rev is still future.

Jesus is not currently enthroned in heaven?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus is not currently enthroned in heaven?

Where did Stephen see Jesus?

 

[Josheb]

None of Rev has happened yet. Rev is still future.

Jesus is not currently enthroned in heaven?

Where did Stephen see Jesus?

?????

Am I to understand you will not answer any questions asked of you but expect others to answer your inquiries when you ignored theirs? First answer the questions first put to you before asking others any questions and expecting them to answer when you've refused to do the same. Do not selfishly and hypocritically impose double standards on others you do not yourself practice. Take turns. Acts 7:56 is not an answer to my question. Just answer the question asked.


Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?

 

[CrowCross]

?????

Am I to understand you will not answer any questions asked of you but expect others to answer your inquiries when you ignored theirs? First answer the questions first put to you before asking others any questions and expecting them to answer when you've refused to do the same. Do not selfishly and hypocritically impose double standards on others you do not yourself practice. Take turns. Acts 7:56 is not an answer to my question. Just answer the question asked.


Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?

Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?
Yes.

 

[Josheb]

Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?
Yes.

Then some of Revelation has happened and you need to stop saying otherwise .

Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?

Is Jesus currently enthroned in heaven or not?
Yes.

Aw, look, now you're on record posting a partial-preterist point of view . Well done .

Where did Stephen see Jesus?

According to scripture....

Acts 7:54-60
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." But they cried out with a loud voice and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

Which shows the question asked is a red herring and proves Psalm 110:1 is correct. Although standing in Stephen's vision, Jesus is at the LORD's right hand where he will remain until the LORD defeats all the Lord's enemies.

Next question.....

Revelation 1:19 explicitly states John was to write down things he'd seen, things that are (at the time of his writing) and things that will take place after these things. The question asked is this: Had the things John "had seen," happened? I am not asking whether or not they were finished or complete. I am asking you whether or not they had happened. John had seen the things he'd seen. Some of the things he was to write down were things that "are" back in the first century. The things he'd seen and the things that are distinguished from the things that will take place after the things he'd seen and the things that "are."


Had the things John seen prior to being given the revelation of Revelation happened?

Next question (I'm tripling up for the sake of expediency).

In Revelation 5 we read of the lamb being exalted, honored, glorified, and blessed by angels (no humans are explicitly specified, even though "elders" are mentioned). We read "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing," (Rev. 5:12). The passage states all dominion is the lamb's. The questions are,

• Has Jesus been declared worthy?
• Has Jesus been exalted, honored, glorified, and blessed by angels?
• Does Jesus now have dominion?

Next question.

In Revelation 12 we read of a woman giving birth. The overwhelming majority of Christendom interprets that woman as either Israel or Mary and the child as either the Jews or Jesus, both of whom already existed prior to the revelation of Revelation.

Has the child been born?

Next question.


Just answer the questions asked, and please do it without delay or obfuscation. If they are answered, and answered correctly, then these will be the last questions I ask about what has or has not already transpired, and we can move on to the relevance of those answers to this op.