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“The Great Tribulation“

My point is that if there is such a gaping departure from "pop American prophecy expert literalism" by saying the stars are evil angels sent down to do time, then all of the Rev is far from a 'precise description of end times' especially when the opening page says twice that these things are at hand.
As i said earlier....we really don't know what the stars falling from heaven are. I pointed out that they may be angels and gave scriptural support for calling angels stars.
I also said the "stars" could also be meteorites or even satellites.
This is what is so satisfactory about Barnett: the current times were thoroughly explored, but the final statement is that the kingdom of God lasts a long time and is harassed to the last day, when the NHNE quickly takes its place (no 7 years of drawn out judgements as usually known).




Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”
IVP, 1990s


Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).
This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).
Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.
John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.
The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.
The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)
Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.
Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.
The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).
Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)
Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…
The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…
In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.
It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.
But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.

--pages 237—241.
As I have said many times....there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened as of yet.
Where has 1/4 of the population ever been destroyed...later followed by 1/3 of the population?
When has 1/3 of the ships been destroyed?
When has 1/3 of the grass been burnt up?
When have 2 large "rocks" fell into the sea?
When has a world wide system of the REV 13 beast system been set up where no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark? When have those who received the mark broken out in boils? When has the world seen a days wages on a loaf of bread?
I could present several more paragraphs of unfulfilled prophecy...why? Revelations hasn't happened as of yet.
 
As i said earlier....we really don't know what the stars falling from heaven are. I pointed out that they may be angels and gave scriptural support for calling angels stars.
I also said the "stars" could also be meteorites or even satellites.

As I have said many times....there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened as of yet.
Where has 1/4 of the population ever been destroyed...later followed by 1/3 of the population?
When has 1/3 of the ships been destroyed?
When has 1/3 of the grass been burnt up?
When have 2 large "rocks" fell into the sea?
When has a world wide system of the REV 13 beast system been set up where no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark? When have those who received the mark broken out in boils? When has the world seen a days wages on a loaf of bread?
I could present several more paragraphs of unfulfilled prophecy...why? Revelations hasn't happened as of yet.

That’s sounds pretty literal. If the meaning is what temple Judaism-speak, it happened.

You hopefully realize that none of that is the final day of wrath anyway, which raises the question why any details would be given. Gods final judgement cannot take place in any human setting anyway.
 
As i said earlier....we really don't know what the stars falling from heaven are. I pointed out that they may be angels and gave scriptural support for calling angels stars.
I also said the "stars" could also be meteorites or even satellites.

As I have said many times....there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened as of yet.
Where has 1/4 of the population ever been destroyed...later followed by 1/3 of the population?
When has 1/3 of the ships been destroyed?
When has 1/3 of the grass been burnt up?
When have 2 large "rocks" fell into the sea?
When has a world wide system of the REV 13 beast system been set up where no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark? When have those who received the mark broken out in boils? When has the world seen a days wages on a loaf of bread?
I could present several more paragraphs of unfulfilled prophecy...why? Revelations hasn't happened as of yet.

The thing that matters is that a panacea was not coming. Mt 24 etc is the same way. The average person in Judaism would realize nothing smooth or glorious was coming. And they expected the world to end, v29.

But that end has been delayed.
 
As i said earlier....we really don't know what the stars falling from heaven are. I pointed out that they may be angels and gave scriptural support for calling angels stars.
I also said the "stars" could also be meteorites or even satellites.

As I have said many times....there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened as of yet.
Where has 1/4 of the population ever been destroyed...later followed by 1/3 of the population?
When has 1/3 of the ships been destroyed?
When has 1/3 of the grass been burnt up?
When have 2 large "rocks" fell into the sea?
When has a world wide system of the REV 13 beast system been set up where no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark? When have those who received the mark broken out in boils? When has the world seen a days wages on a loaf of bread?
I could present several more paragraphs of unfulfilled prophecy...why? Revelations hasn't happened as of yet.
I have gone through the 21 judgements doing a percent inventory and half way through I was at -275% so I stopped. That’s without treating the stars as known suns , which would be the end game.

So it is far from straight forward.

The resurrection of Christ was his enthronement says Ps 2 and 110, and all the earth is to know they should honor him.
 
That’s sounds pretty literal. If the meaning is what temple Judaism-speak, it happened.

You hopefully realize that none of that is the final day of wrath anyway, which raises the question why any details would be given. Gods final judgement cannot take place in any human setting anyway.
Once again what I presented has never happened.....when will that fact enlighten you?
 
The thing that matters is that a panacea was not coming. Mt 24 etc is the same way. The average person in Judaism would realize nothing smooth or glorious was coming. And they expected the world to end, v29.

But that end has been delayed.
Yes, the end has been delayed.....we can know that because Revelations hasn't happened yet.
 
I have gone through the 21 judgements doing a percent inventory and half way through I was at -275% so I stopped. That’s without treating the stars as known suns , which would be the end game.

So it is far from straight forward.

The resurrection of Christ was his enthronement says Ps 2 and 110, and all the earth is to know they should honor him.
I imagine you stopped because you ran into prophecy that hasn't happened as of yet and figured out but won't admit it doesn't work with your theology.
 
Once again what I presented has never happened.....when will that fact enlighten you?

Many of those things happened in the known world of the time—Rome. See Barnet. But you are missing the forest for the trees anyway.
 
Yes, the end has been delayed.....we can know that because Revelations hasn't happened yet.
No, but bc of 2P 3’s answer. The Rev is not a Nostradamus of modern events. It interpreted the 1st cent and ended saying the present kingdom would be long and troubled.
 
I imagine you stopped because you ran into prophecy that hasn't happened as of yet and figured out but won't admit it doesn't work with your theology.

Not at all; it was shear %s as if happening to the current world. Add an actual star hitting earth and I win 10x.

Don’t get stuck in pop literalism. It is nowhere in the NT, and a slug of modern events is nowhere in the expectations of Heb 11-13 or 2 P 3
 
Many of those things happened in the known world of the time—Rome. See Barnet. But you are missing the forest for the trees anyway.
Perhaps "many"...but not "all". This shows us Revelation is future.
 
No, but bc of 2P 3’s answer. The Rev is not a Nostradamus of modern events. It interpreted the 1st cent and ended saying the present kingdom would be long and troubled.
Nostradamus????
 
Not at all; it was shear %s as if happening to the current world. Add an actual star hitting earth and I win 10x.
What was this first century star event?
Don’t get stuck in pop literalism. It is nowhere in the NT, and a slug of modern events is nowhere in the expectations of Heb 11-13 or 2 P 3
 
Perhaps "many"...but not "all". This shows us Revelation is future.

It says soon on the 1st page, twice. He was interpreting the disasters of the 1st cent., he used the term for the adulterous Levitical wife for Jerusalem and its 'stoning,' and he ends by saying the kingdom of God would be very long and troubled. Questions?




Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.
 
Not the events in Rev. We can know this because they haven't happened yet.


Break things down a bit Crow. Btw, I'm sure you love our Lord.

The 21 judgements are events about current Judaism and their known world. This matches Mt24A somewhat. The term for the harlot is a Levitical wife in adultery, who would be stoned as punishment. The term for stones used is the 'catapulta' of the Roman weapon. This use of Roman terms about OT prophecy is also found in Luke.

The destruction of this world after the long reign of Christ (chs 20-21) and then the NHNE are yet to come.
 
Not the events in Rev. We can know this because they haven't happened yet.

You've pressed the 21 events up close to the return in final judgement. There is no basis for that. Not now. There was in the 1st cent., when "right after" applied, in Mt24:29. But not now.
 
Matthew 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Christians will experience the great tribulation.

How long will the great tribulation last?

I don't know exactly, but I think it counts in days, not years.

Would you know if you were in the early stages of tribulation?

Only with hindsight:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

More detail of the 2nd coming is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
John 6:

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Revelation 1:

7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
John 5:

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2 Peter 3:

12b the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

  1. The great tribulation
  2. 2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day
  3. The dead in Christ resurrected
  4. Live believers caught up (rapture).
  5. The wicked resurrected for judgment
  6. End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed
  7. New heavens and new earth established.
As for the millennium reign, presently I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.
 
Only those who become christians after the rapture will experience the tribulation.

The word tribulation must be defined as it is used

Remember No signs were given to wonder after. Its natural unconverted mankind that seeks after one. Believers have prophecy till the end. .

In that way tribulation is tribulation. . nothing more. . nothing less Joy is Joy nothing more nothing less ?

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty,(but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

tribulation,= poverty
tribulation
, = Joy

Revelation 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Great tribulation for one Great Joy the other. Goats and sheep

2 Corinthians 7:4Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

Yoked with Christ our burdens or tribulations can be lighter

Matthew 2:10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

No different than the words "the Father is greater than I" . Greater in respect to position not person.( Christ is the sufferings of great tribulation person )

The time of reformation had comes the period of time when God gave over the faithless Jew to do that which they should not of they desired. and demanded Samael to have a visible king reign over them like all the sounding pagans nation. . there foundation . . "Out of sight out of of mind" Like that of Cain ; Where is your little brother? "I know not where my bible thumping little brother Abel is. Did you check your pocket LOL

No faith alone coming from hearing the living word of God .





had came to wnd the veil was rent there was no King ofkings siting in the holy place of God Kings in isreal the awmbnation of deslation came to a end . The jew thate were tusting thei ding flesh could profit for some a great traunblion for the fauikless jew one like never before or ever again A grat joy for the born gain jew and gentile .the wals fel down .sepeting the jeih whomaen fro paipating in the ceriniie *heisdh men olnl club . ndither hidg al saeeding the jws form the geniles ,a gosppel xposion ne like never before or ebver agin mixed fmailies hd the frddom to ce togher as ne new bor agin fnily
 
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