“Gathered To His People”

[Buff Scott Jr.]

“Gathered To His People”

TWO QUESTIONS​

1] When our loved ones depart, do they sleep or are they conscious? 2] Does the nucleus of a believer—his spirit—live on after physical death?

We’ll start with Stephen who was stoned to death by the enemies of Jesus. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep” [Acts 7:59-60].

There are two entities in this passage I’d like you to notice. Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit. The second is that he “fell asleep.” The phrase “fell asleep” was a common expression among the Jewish people to signify physical death, especially the death of a righteous man.

However, this “sleep” is not attributable to the spirit, but to the body, because Stephen committed his spirit to the Lord while his body was being stoned by a wicked mob of sectarian religionists. The term “fell asleep” is often used in the new covenant scriptures while “gathered to his people” was the dictum used by the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament Scriptures. Therefore, “receive my spirit” and “gathered to his people“ are comparable utterings, which relate to the same theme.

“Gathered to his people” is a Hebrew expression while “receive my spirit” is a Greek phrase. “Fell asleep” alludes to one’s physical cessation, as in the case of Steven. But “receive my spirit” refers to the essence or nucleus of a person departing his physical body for another abode. When a holy man ceases to live, his spirit—the real or actual person—becomes an inhabitant of another world and connects “with the spirits of just men made perfect.”

In my appraisal, to distort this apparent fact by substituting “breath” in the place of “spirit” is to rearrange heaven’s testimony and misarrange the Holy Spirit’s vocabulary. For if it is only a righteous man’s “breath” that returns to God, it would be logical to inquire, “Is God a collector of breaths?” To me, the idea is absurd and completed out of focal with the central meaning.

Another important factor is that “gathered to his people” and “fell asleep” are always used in conjunction with believers, never with unbelievers. For If the expressions include everyone’s “breath,” surely there would be examples of their being applied to the death of unbelievers. Not one example have I found!

My point is that there is another “component” of a believer that separates from his body at the point of biological death and becomes an inhabitant or resident of a celestial domain—namely, his spirit. There is a beauty beyond the believer’s physical senses—an inner beauty, his spirit.

God instructed Moses to climb Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, and view the Land of Canaan, “for there on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people.” By way of paraphrasing, we might construct the implication in this fashion, “For on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people who have gone on before you.” It is certain that Moses’ bones were not “gathered to his people,” for no one knew—or knows—where God buried him.

I understand “gathered to your people” to mean that Moses’ spirit, the real Moses, immediately following his biological demise, would be assembling in a celestial environment with all of the old saints whose earthly existence had already ended—Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the others.

“Breath” is not meant. We’re not speaking of Moses’ breath being gathered to his people, as some define “spirit.” What in the name of logic would a bunch of “breaths” do when gathered, share halitosis? And what would a “flock of breaths” look like, anyway? Instead, we are talking about the actual man, for man’s spirit is the core of his existence. Man’s spirit is “the vital principle by which the body is animated, the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides” [Thayer’s Greek Lexicon].

True, one of the renderings of “spirit” is “breath,” but never when it involves the crux of man’s existence. When Jacob’s spirit was revived after he was told his son Joseph was alive, his breathing did not improve. Rather, his inner man was infused with vitality [Gen. 45:23-28].

When Jacob was rapidly approaching death, he said, “I am about to be gathered to my people.” Then the end of a great man’s life was finalized. “When Jacob had finished giving instructions to his sons, he drew his feet up into the bed, breathed his last, and was gathered to his people” [Gen. 49:29-33]. His breathing ceased and became non-existent, but his real self, his spirit, was “gathered to his people” or united with “the spirits of righteous men made perfect” [Heb. 12:23]. Jacob’s spirit became an inhabitant of another world, the spirit or celestial world, and was “joined to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Even Abraham, the forerunner of Moses, an old man and full of years, breathed his last and was “gathered to his people.” “Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years. And he was gathered to his people” [Gen. 25:7-8].

Then will there be a resurrection of our physical selves? Of course! On that occasion, our spirit will be reunited with our transformed body. Paul wrote, “The Lord Jesus Christ will transform our lowly [physical] body to be like His glorious body” [Phil. 3:20]. Our fleshly bodies will be changed. Paul noted in another place, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] kingdom of God” [I Cor. 15:50].

Some day, after this life’s tears and joys “have come home to roost,” you and I will be called upon to breathe our last—hopefully “at a good old age.” Will we “be gathered to our people,” as were Moses and others? May the Lord sharpen and prepare us for that glorious event, as we seek and accept His grace.​

 

[Josheb]

“Gathered To His People”

TWO QUESTIONS​

1] When our loved ones depart, do they sleep or are they conscious?​

To be out of the body is to be with the Lord. We are raised incorruptible and immortal, having been given a spiritual body - and if Jesus' resurrected body is the prototype, then it will be a body of flesh and bone that can appear and disappear, walk through walls, and cook fish.

2] Does the nucleus of a believer—his spirit—live on after physical death?​

That is either a red herring or a bad question because the spirit is not our "nucleus." Humans are a combination of body, soul, and spirit but not as the classic "tripartite" view often teaches. Separation of one part is not possible without the loss of the whole. We do not have a body, or have a soul, or have a spirit so much as we are the body, soul, and spirit. To lose one is to lose the whole. There are no bodiless souls or spirits in the Bible. If they can be seen, then they have mass. If they can speak and/or taste, then they have a mouth and a body to accompany that mouth.

We’ll start with Stephen who was stoned to death by the enemies of Jesus. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep” [Acts 7:59-60].​

That is true, but the receipt of Stephen's spirit did NOT occur in any way different than what the whole of scripture teaches and that means Stephen was raised incorruptible and immortal in a transformed body (as described in 1 Cor. 15) and he was with the Lord (as reported in 2 Cor. 5). He was never a bodiless spirit.

There are two entities in this passage I’d like you to notice. Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit. The second is that he “fell asleep.” The phrase “fell asleep” was a common expression among the Jewish people to signify physical death, especially the death of a righteous man.

However, this “sleep” is not attributable to the spirit, but to the body, because Stephen committed his spirit to the Lord while his body was being stoned by a wicked mob of sectarian religionists.​

Yes.

The term “fell asleep” is often used in the new covenant scriptures while “gathered to his people” was the dictum used by the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament Scriptures. Therefore, “receive my spirit” and “gathered to his people“ are comparable utterings, which relate to the same theme.

“Gathered to his people” is a Hebrew expression while “receive my spirit” is a Greek phrase. “Fell asleep” alludes to one’s physical cessation, as in the case of Steven. But “receive my spirit” refers to the essence or nucleus of a person departing his physical body for another abode. When a holy man ceases to live, his spirit—the real or actual person—becomes an inhabitant of another world and connects “with the spirits of just men made perfect.”

In my appraisal, to distort this apparent fact by substituting “breath” in the place of “spirit” is to rearrange heaven’s testimony and misarrange the Holy Spirit’s vocabulary. For if it is only a righteous man’s “breath” that returns to God, it would be logical to inquire, “Is God a collector of breaths?” To me, the idea is absurd and completed out of focal with the central meaning.​

No.

Another important factor is that “gathered to his people” and “fell asleep” are always used in conjunction with believers, never with unbelievers. For If the expressions include everyone’s “breath,” surely there would be examples of their being applied to the death of unbelievers. Not one example have I found!​

Interesting observation but I'm not sure it is complete. Unbelievers are gathered together; they are just not God's people. They are not gathered to His people, but to their people. There is plenty of scripture to prove that.

My point is that there is another “component” of a believer that separates from his body at the point of biological death and becomes an inhabitant or resident of a celestial domain—namely, his spirit. There is a beauty beyond the believer’s physical senses—an inner beauty, his spirit.

What is it that gets thrown in to the fiery lake? Is it a body, a soul, a spirit, some mixture of the three, or all three together?

God instructed Moses to climb Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, and view the Land of Canaan, “for there on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people.” By way of paraphrasing, we might construct the implication in this fashion, “For on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people who have gone on before you.” It is certain that Moses’ bones were not “gathered to his people,” for no one knew—or knows—where God buried him.

I understand “gathered to your people” to mean that Moses’ spirit, the real Moses, immediately following his biological demise, would be assembling in a celestial environment with all of the old saints whose earthly existence had already ended—Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the others.​

And yet at the transfiguration Moses had a visible body.


I'm going to stop commentary here because I believe my point is made. There are some commendable observations here but there are also some mistakes, and they appear to have occurred because they're built on incorrect assumptions stemming from neglect of whole scripture. When we die or body of flesh and blood is buried, and it decays in the graves where bugs consume the rotting material. Anyone can dig up a grave and objectively verify that fact. It is the claim of scripture that Jesus came back in his original body and that is what we are called to believe happened. The gospel is very much about Jesus conquering the grave. 1 Corinthians 15 presents a slightly different view because the body buried dies and produces a "plant;" the body buried is raised but raised transformed. There is a 1:1 correlation between the body buried and the body raised. That is true of those denying God, and true of those believing in God. The chief difference is the non-believer is not raised incorruptible and immortal. He is raised to get tossed in the fiery lake that is so lethal even death itself is destroyed.

I'll also add the notion of "going" someplace is questionable, especially if that someplace is a third option other than "the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1). The heavens surround the earth. They are not someplace a long way away wholly separated from the earth with a bunch of undefined stuff in between. We're already there. We just can't see it. Anyone who wants to see need only die.

BUT....

Anyone dying not believing in the name of the resurrected Jesus sees a much different version than those who do believe.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

To be out of the body is to be with the Lord. We are raised incorruptible and immortal, having been given a spiritual body - and if Jesus' resurrected body is the prototype, then it will be a body of flesh and bone that can appear and disappear, walk through walls, and cook fish.

That is either a red herring or a bad question because the spirit is not our "nucleus." Humans are a combination of body, soul, and spirit but not as the classic "tripartite" view often teaches. Separation of one part is not possible without the loss of the whole. We do not have a body, or have a soul, or have a spirit so much as we are the body, soul, and spirit. To lose one is to lose the whole. There are no bodiless souls or spirits in the Bible. If they can be seen, then they have mass. If they can speak and/or taste, then they have a mouth and a body to accompany that mouth.

That is true, but the receipt of Stephen's spirit did NOT occur in any way different than what the whole of scripture teaches and that means Stephen was raised incorruptible and immortal in a transformed body (as described in 1 Cor. 15) and he was with the Lord (as reported in 2 Cor. 5). He was never a bodiless spirit.

Yes.

No.

Interesting observation but I'm not sure it is complete. Unbelievers are gathered together; they are just not God's people. They are not gathered to His people, but to their people. There is plenty of scripture to prove that.

What is it that gets thrown in to the fiery lake? Is it a body, a soul, a spirit, some mixture of the three, or all three together?

And yet at the transfiguration Moses had a visible body.


I'm going to stop commentary here because I believe my point is made. There are some commendable observations here but there are also some mistakes, and they appear to have occurred because they're built on incorrect assumptions stemming from neglect of whole scripture. When we die or body of flesh and blood is buried, and it decays in the graves where bugs consume the rotting material. Anyone can dig up a grave and objectively verify that fact. It is the claim of scripture that Jesus came back in his original body and that is what we are called to believe happened. The gospel is very much about Jesus conquering the grave. 1 Corinthians 15 presents a slightly different view because the body buried dies and produces a "plant;" the body buried is raised but raised transformed. There is a 1:1 correlation between the body buried and the body raised. That is true of those denying God, and true of those believing in God. The chief difference is the non-believer is not raised incorruptible and immortal. He is raised to get tossed in the fiery lake that is so lethal even death itself is destroyed.

I'll also add the notion of "going" someplace is questionable, especially if that someplace is a third option other than "the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1). The heavens surround the earth. They are not someplace a long way away wholly separated from the earth with a bunch of undefined stuff in between. We're already there. We just can't see it. Anyone who wants to see need only die.

BUT....

Anyone dying not believing in the name of the resurrected Jesus sees a much different version than those who do believe.

Josheb:

We partially agree and partially disagree. Your disagreements are, in my opinion, adequately and biblically covered in my post above—including ample scriptures and their applications.​

 

[Josheb]

Josheb:

We partially agree and partially disagree. Your disagreements are, in my opinion, adequately and biblically covered in my post above—including ample scriptures and their applications.​

Well said. Thanks. I don't mind folks disagreeing with me and appreciate the manners and implicit respect.

Your disagreements are, in my opinion, adequately and biblically covered in my post above—including ample scriptures and their applications.​

Then.....

May I recommend the agreements be received in affirmation and commendation... and the adequately biblically covered areas of disagreement where scripture has been (correctly ) applied be used to amend the op. You can do that, you know.

 

[makesends]

“Gathered To His People”

TWO QUESTIONS​

1] When our loved ones depart, do they sleep or are they conscious? 2] Does the nucleus of a believer—his spirit—live on after physical death?

We’ll start with Stephen who was stoned to death by the enemies of Jesus. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep” [Acts 7:59-60].

There are two entities in this passage I’d like you to notice. Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit. The second is that he “fell asleep.” The phrase “fell asleep” was a common expression among the Jewish people to signify physical death, especially the death of a righteous man.

However, this “sleep” is not attributable to the spirit, but to the body, because Stephen committed his spirit to the Lord while his body was being stoned by a wicked mob of sectarian religionists. The term “fell asleep” is often used in the new covenant scriptures while “gathered to his people” was the dictum used by the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament Scriptures. Therefore, “receive my spirit” and “gathered to his people“ are comparable utterings, which relate to the same theme.

“Gathered to his people” is a Hebrew expression while “receive my spirit” is a Greek phrase. “Fell asleep” alludes to one’s physical cessation, as in the case of Steven. But “receive my spirit” refers to the essence or nucleus of a person departing his physical body for another abode. When a holy man ceases to live, his spirit—the real or actual person—becomes an inhabitant of another world and connects “with the spirits of just men made perfect.”

In my appraisal, to distort this apparent fact by substituting “breath” in the place of “spirit” is to rearrange heaven’s testimony and misarrange the Holy Spirit’s vocabulary. For if it is only a righteous man’s “breath” that returns to God, it would be logical to inquire, “Is God a collector of breaths?” To me, the idea is absurd and completed out of focal with the central meaning.

Another important factor is that “gathered to his people” and “fell asleep” are always used in conjunction with believers, never with unbelievers. For If the expressions include everyone’s “breath,” surely there would be examples of their being applied to the death of unbelievers. Not one example have I found!

My point is that there is another “component” of a believer that separates from his body at the point of biological death and becomes an inhabitant or resident of a celestial domain—namely, his spirit. There is a beauty beyond the believer’s physical senses—an inner beauty, his spirit.

God instructed Moses to climb Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, and view the Land of Canaan, “for there on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people.” By way of paraphrasing, we might construct the implication in this fashion, “For on the mountain you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people who have gone on before you.” It is certain that Moses’ bones were not “gathered to his people,” for no one knew—or knows—where God buried him.

I understand “gathered to your people” to mean that Moses’ spirit, the real Moses, immediately following his biological demise, would be assembling in a celestial environment with all of the old saints whose earthly existence had already ended—Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the others.

“Breath” is not meant. We’re not speaking of Moses’ breath being gathered to his people, as some define “spirit.” What in the name of logic would a bunch of “breaths” do when gathered, share halitosis? And what would a “flock of breaths” look like, anyway? Instead, we are talking about the actual man, for man’s spirit is the core of his existence. Man’s spirit is “the vital principle by which the body is animated, the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides” [Thayer’s Greek Lexicon].

True, one of the renderings of “spirit” is “breath,” but never when it involves the crux of man’s existence. When Jacob’s spirit was revived after he was told his son Joseph was alive, his breathing did not improve. Rather, his inner man was infused with vitality [Gen. 45:23-28].

When Jacob was rapidly approaching death, he said, “I am about to be gathered to my people.” Then the end of a great man’s life was finalized. “When Jacob had finished giving instructions to his sons, he drew his feet up into the bed, breathed his last, and was gathered to his people” [Gen. 49:29-33]. His breathing ceased and became non-existent, but his real self, his spirit, was “gathered to his people” or united with “the spirits of righteous men made perfect” [Heb. 12:23]. Jacob’s spirit became an inhabitant of another world, the spirit or celestial world, and was “joined to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Even Abraham, the forerunner of Moses, an old man and full of years, breathed his last and was “gathered to his people.” “Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years. And he was gathered to his people” [Gen. 25:7-8].

Then will there be a resurrection of our physical selves? Of course! On that occasion, our spirit will be reunited with our transformed body. Paul wrote, “The Lord Jesus Christ will transform our lowly [physical] body to be like His glorious body” [Phil. 3:20]. Our fleshly bodies will be changed. Paul noted in another place, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the [eternal] kingdom of God” [I Cor. 15:50].

Some day, after this life’s tears and joys “have come home to roost,” you and I will be called upon to breathe our last—hopefully “at a good old age.” Will we “be gathered to our people,” as were Moses and others? May the Lord sharpen and prepare us for that glorious event, as we seek and accept His grace.​

It seems to me that your comments and questions are all based on the notion of validity to time as a necessary component of reality, in considerations of eternal matters. Many of these riddles are at least explainable by the concept of God (and eternity) being 'outside of' time.

For example, I can smile at the thought of my ['passed on' before me] wife looking down at me and for the first time finally understanding why I do what I do and what I was thinking. At the same time, I can believe she will 'arrive there simultaneous with' me and Adam and Methuselah and Moses and Elijah. These two do not contradict each other, except in temporal human expression of concepts.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

makesends:

Your remarks are a little puzzling, but I don't think we disagree all that much.

Buff