Why is Jesus called the Only Begottten Son?

[fastfredy0]

I have argued no one believes such a thing and the claim is a red herring. Apparently, I am wrong. Someone does believe God has an inability to save. [w [Fastfredy comment: where I interpret

God can save everyone OR He can save no one OR some percentage God can save. But what GOD CANNOT do is:
Save everyone and no one simutaneously,
Save 10% and not save 5% simutaneously,
.... or any other mathematically impossible combination

So, God nature determined the most wise combination and to do anything other than the most wise way is outside of God's ability. Therefore, it is not possible to save those who will not be saved. Again, God has the power to do.

Premise 1: God is all wise
Premise 2: Everything God does is the wisest thing to do
Conclusion: God cannot do other than what He has decreed

 

[Josheb]

Re: Does anyone here believe God is unable to save (anyone)?

Yes, God actions are restricted by His nature which is perfect. God defines "perfect".

Augustine argued because God is perfectly and inherently inextricably good, He is free. God is the only free Being because His nature is good.*

From that perspective God is free to save in any and all conditions AND free to mete out the just recompense for sin in any and all conditions. No inability. Total ability. Total autonomy. Total freedom. Total, perfect integrity.









* Augustine's argument was specifically applied to evil and imperfection, but the concept applies as posted.

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[Josheb]

God can save everyone OR He can save no one OR some percentage God can save.

Then He is able. Your statement is a variation of my previous post pertaining to God's nature providing freedom and ability, not limits and inability.

But what GOD CANNOT do is:
Save everyone and no one simutaneously,
Save 10% and not save 5% simutaneously,
.... or any other mathematically impossible combination

I disagree. The problem with that is its nonsensical predicate. No one holds God can or does do anything logically impossible. What God can do is make a rock of infinite weight such that any inability on His part to lift the stone is also not a limitation or inability. God is nt bound by the limits He set for creation (such as the law of non-contradiction). God can and does create evil in an already evil world. He, and He alone is sovereign over evil, and he can and does do whatever He likes with it as He pleases to make it serve His will and purpose.

Furthermore, the fact is God has saved everyone and no one simultaneously. I suspect this wasn't thought through. We live in creation and time passes for us who are bound by space. From the Reformed pov our salvation is already accomplished and yet there was a time when we did not salvifically believe in Christ and there yet remains the time when our salvation is completed (on the other side of the grave). From God's perspective there are a great many people saved and simultaneously not saved, both dead in sin and dead in Christ, and God can and does save and destroy any and all as he is able.

So, God nature determined the most wise combination and to do anything other than the most wise way is outside of God's ability.

Be careful. That strays into territory in conflict with WCF 3.5-7

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5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

God did not sit down with His divine calculator and figure out the best mathematical combinations." Were that the case He'd cease to be omniscient, and thereby also cease to be God. God's not bound by statistics and percentages. It's a bad analogy. He created that math and ALL the rules governing it, not the other way around. He's not limited by the cause-and-effect, nor any other constraints of time and space, nor anything else in Creation.

Therefore, it is not possible to save those who will not be saved. Again, God has the power to do.

Premise 1: God is all wise
Premise 2: Everything God does is the wisest thing to do

That's not inability.

Conclusion: God cannot do other than what He has decreed

That conclusion should read, "God can do all that He decrees, and He may decree whatever He so chooses." The nly reason anyone is saved is God. We are saved by grace. No one would be saved absent that grace. Every single human ever made is someone who will not be saved.


.....except for the grace of God to save them.

When God chose you and me to save, He did it without a calculator, without considering the mathematical combinations, and without any inability to save. The attempt to leverage one choice against another is a red herring because they the choice who to save and who not to save is the exact same choice. If you're not chosen for salvation, you are chosen for destruction. Same exact choice. Same exact moment. The "not" is nothing more than the absence of the choice to save. All of it is due to God's ability, not a supposed post hoc inability. And, in anticipation of the protest about God changing, or not being able to change His choice.....


....under what circumstance would God need to change His freely made, perfect, righteous, sovereign choice?

 

[makesends]

Re: Does anyone here believe God is unable to save (anyone)?

Yes, God actions are restricted by His nature which is perfect. God defines "perfect".


I'm not sure I understand the question. My take on things is the God determines everything so everything I do is an effect and He is the First Cause. God, IMO, does not respond to our self-determined actions as all our actions are determines by Him. So, when you say "it would have something to do with the person" I would need clarification as when God does has something to do with the person, but not the self-determined actions of the person as no such thing exists ... IMO
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]. AMP
... in Him we live and breath and have our being



Well, I'd say it has to do with God's nature and His being "all wise" is an aspect of His nature.
God choosing from a "bucket of scum" is a given.

Aside: There is no such thing a WHY GOD DOES THIS OR THAT because WHY implies a cause and everything God does is uncaused as He is eternal and does not change. Therefore, what He does boils down to it being His nature.

Yet, it is against reason to say that he created a bucket of scum from which to choose. This was his decision from the beginning. The word, "choose", there, is an anthropomorphism, to ease our minds, I think. I don't see any reason to think he looked through a pool of generic possibles, from which to elect some for his particular purpose.

 

[makesends]

Augustine argued because God is perfectly and inherently inextricably good, He is free. God is the only free Being because His nature is good.*

From that perspective God is free to save in any and all conditions AND free to mete out the just recompense for sin in any and all conditions. No inability. Total ability. Total autonomy. Total freedom. Total, perfect integrity.









* Augustine's argument was specifically applied to evil and imperfection, but the concept applies as posted.

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Completely agreed with Augustine there. Glad he said it, because I don't know how.

 

[Eleanor]

That should be clarified even more, when stating that Jesus was created--which is how the statements were originally made. If that is not going to be done then it is best to not declare that HE (Jesus) was created. I actually thought that is what you and @makesends and @fastfredy0 meant. Which of course is the very heresy of the Unitarian. He is created only in the sense of his humanity coming into existence through Mary, in time. That is why the Reformers were careful always to clarify what they meant, an soften simply worded it as the Bible does. "He came as one of us." "The WORD became flesh." "He put on humanity." "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:6-8).

The Bible itself, near as I can remember, never refers to Christ as to his flesh, as being created by calling him created.

All flesh (matter) is created.

He became flesh (Jn 1:14, his humanity was created) in the womb of Mary, his humanity was not flesh/created before that.

 

[Eleanor]

. . .

 

[fastfredy0]

Augustine argued because God is perfectly and inherently inextricably good, He is free. God is the only free Being because His nature is good.*

From that perspective God is free to save in any and all conditions AND free to mete out the just recompense for sin in any and all conditions. No inability. Total ability. Total autonomy. Total freedom. Total, perfect integrity.

Sounds right to me.
God does whatever pleases Him and He defines what is "good" and "just" and "etc". Our only source of knowledge/truth is Him, so who can correctly contest what He says.

Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I [Isaiah], Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts"

 

[fastfredy0]

God can and does create evil in an already evil world. He, and He alone is sovereign over evil, and he can and does do whatever He likes with it as He pleases to make it serve His will and purpose.

Agreed ....

Furthermore, the fact is God has saved everyone and no one simultaneously. I suspect this wasn't thought through. We live in creation and time passes for us who are bound by space. From the Reformed pov our salvation is already accomplished and yet there was a time when we did not salvifically believe in Christ and there yet remains the time when our salvation is completed (on the other side of the grave). From God's perspective there are a great many people saved and simultaneously not saved, both dead in sin and dead in Christ, and God can and does save and destroy any and all as he is able.

Well, now we're taking a deeper dive. I agree with you though maybe this is a human perspective which is time orientated. God being outside of time and unchanging may think of the elect as always saved, it's eternally a "done deal". That being said, my mind can't comprehend existence without time as a component.

Re: [I said] So, God nature determined the most wise combination and to do anything other than the most wise way is outside of God's ability.

God did not sit down with His divine calculator and figure out the best mathematical combinations." Were that the case He'd cease to be omniscient, and thereby also cease to be God. God's not bound by statistics and percentages. It's a bad analogy. He created that math and ALL the rules governing it, not the other way around. He's not limited by the cause-and-effect, nor any other constraints of time and space, nor anything else in Creation.

I agree with you. I do not think God studies various possibilities and comes to a conclusion. Maybe I miscommunicated what I was trying to say.


re:
Premise 1: God is all wise
Premise 2: Everything God does is the wisest thing to do
Conclusion: God cannot do other than what He has decreed

That's not inability.

hmmm, I think God decreed all things and He is perfect and a deviation from His plan is not possible which is to say an inability. God is unable to be imperfect.
...anyways

....under what circumstance would God need to change His freely made, perfect, righteous, sovereign choice?

under no circumstance as He is perfect and change suggests improvement or as poorer outcome. God is unable to change.

 

[fastfredy0]

I need to go to another forum where the discourse is not as intellectually elevated in order to give my brain a rest.

 

[Carbon]

I need to go to another forum where the discourse is not as intellectually elevated in order to give my brain a rest.

Try the politics category.

 

[makesends]

Re: [I said] So, God nature determined the most wise combination and to do anything other than the most wise way is outside of God's ability.

That is one way to put it, but it seems to me to be misleading. It is not that he is not able to do it. It is that the notion that there is any other way for God to do what he set out to do —call it 'combination' if you like— is a non-entity. It is our way of thinking and speaking; but it's a bogus notion, like asking if God can make a rock too big for him to pick up.

To say that God is free does not imply that God considers alternatives. If I were to say, "God must consider alternatives before deciding to do what he does.", would it change the perspective?

Divine simplicity.

 

[fastfredy0]

It is not that he is not able to do it.

I grant the God has the power to saved everyone or no one or any percentage He wishes. But God power is control by His wisdom that is perfect. His wisdom directs His power and God is only able to follow what His wisdom dictates. God's wisdom being an effect of His eternal, immutable nature. Now, I suppose there is a situation where it may be just as wise to save 1,000,000 or 1,000,001 people and if that were the case, I don't know what He might do.

To say that God is free does not imply that God considers alternatives. If I were to say, "God must consider alternatives before deciding to do what he does.", would it change the perspective?

I don't think God considers alternatives although He is aware of them.

 

[Arial 1]

I don't follow, plus, I'm not sure to what you are referring in saying, "he could not die". After all, he did die. You must be speaking of his Divine nature, and whatever else is not his earthly flesh. Or maybe you mean, he could not stay dead? Either way, I don't get what you are saying.

I meant "decay".

When I, or most anyone here, tries to get a concept or description of something across, we may do so to the exclusion of showing the other side. That is common speech. But I am sorry for any misleading, on my part. I hope at least, that I did not engage in hyperbole in a matter as sensitive as the hypostatic union.

All is ok.

 

[Fred]

I meant "decay".

All is ok.

Hold on a second. This isn't Arial (the Moderator)?

 

[makesends]

I grant the God has the power to saved everyone or no one or any percentage He wishes. But God power is control by His wisdom that is perfect. His wisdom directs His power and God is only able to follow what His wisdom dictates. God's wisdom being an effect of His eternal, immutable nature. Now, I suppose there is a situation where it may be just as wise to save 1,000,000 or 1,000,001 people and if that were the case, I don't know what He might do.


I don't think God considers alternatives although He is aware of them.

Maybe one way to put what I'm trying to say, is that there ARE no alternatives. It might make sense to say that God's power is controlled by his wisdom, but that is a very human way of describing what he does. God is all-wise and all-powerful; it's not like his power would have done thus and such but for the wisdom controlling it. His power IS wise.

What we should have done does not imply that we could have done any different than God's intentions entailed. He INTENDED for Adam to eat of the fruit. He MEANT for Joseph's brothers to commit the heinous sin of selling Joseph to the Egyptians. Everything that happens is 'already' spoken into fact, by God. The means by which it comes to pass involves, besides all other circumstances, our wills and all the myriad causes involved in bringing our choices about, but that does not leave anything up to chance. What God intends WILL be accomplished, and nothing else will come to pass. God is not limited, except to our minds' way of thinking.

 

[Arial 1]

Hold on a second. This isn't Arial (the Moderator)?

Yes it is. Big problem with signing in on my other account. I had to re-register with a different email. Hopefully we will get it all straightened out, Until them, I will be Arial 1

 

[fastfredy0]

God can and does create evil in an already evil world. He, and He alone is sovereign over evil, and he can and does do whatever He likes with it as He pleases to make it serve His will and purpose.

Agreed

 

[Josheb]

Agreed

What about the other content? God the only free Being/being because of His inherent unassailable goodness? His external existence precluding Him from creation's limitations? The simultaneously existing condition of not-saved/saved, the already/not-yet? The decision to save/not save is the same decision, not two separate ones*?










* This one is particularly critical since Cal-raggers often misrepresent Calvinism to say God chooses who to destroy and who to save when the fact is those saved are chosen from the exact same population of sinners who would otherwise be on their way to wrath. He simply chooses who He'll save and there is no one He cannot save.
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[fastfredy0]

God the only free Being/being because of His inherent unassailable goodness?

I agree that God is only "free" Being but not because of His "unassailable goodness". Rather, because He has the power to do whatever His nature wishes to do.
Technically, if one defines "free" as the ability to do what one desires most at the time, then in many respects men are free ... but God determines over desires.

His external existence precluding Him from creation's limitations?

Agreed .... diving deeper, I believe God is continually recreating creation as implied by:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Hebrews 1:3, Job 34:14-15

The simultaneously existing condition of not-saved/saved, the already/not-yet?

I prefer the "already/not-yet"

The decision to save/not save is the same decision, not two separate ones*?

Agreed .... I don't care for idea that God is inactive in the reprobates decision.