• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Who is Being Judged in Mt 25:31-46 and Why?

prism

Asleep in the boat Lu 8:23-24
Joined
Jul 17, 2023
Messages
1,212
Reaction score
465
Points
83
Age
75
Location
Conservative So. Ca.
Faith
Berean (Acts 17:11)
Country
USA
Marital status
Married
Politics
Leans Right
Gentiles (Nations) or All (Jew & Gentile)?
Is this a Judgment of works? (on it's face, seems so).
How sola fide / sola gratia fit this picture?
 
Gentiles (Nations) or All (Jew & Gentile)?
Is this a Judgment of works? (on it's face, seems so).
How sola fide / sola gratia fit this picture?
I believe it is the judgment. Judgement day.

Not sure if I understand your question on sola fide & sola gratia of how they would fit in.
Are you mixing salvation with judgment day?

Please explain?

Thanks
 
Who is Being Judged in Mt. 25:31-46, and why?

Gentiles (Nations) or All (Jew & Gentile)?
Is this a Judgment of works? (on it's face, seems so).
How sola fide / sola gratia fit this picture?
Great question.

First, the Matthew 25:31-46 text is part of a narrative that begins back in Matthew 21:18 and does not conclude until Matthew 26:5. Matthew has described the events of a single day and Jesus' words to various people in various locales are all related to his entrance into Jerusalem the day before and the reason he came there. Not one verse in all those chapters should be read out of that context.

Second, everything Jesus said was first said in the prophets. Jesus is simply expounding on and revealing in greater detail and with greater clarity things that had already been said. every verse in all five+ chapters should be read in that context.

Both of those contexts occur in the context of the covenant God made with Abraham..... and Jesus (Gal. 3:16). Nothing Jesus said in the Matthew 25 passage should be read outside of that context.

Now I say all this because there was no nation of Israel in Abraham's day. Furthermore, the phrase "the nations" is sometimes used to indicate Israel, or the tribes of Israel. They are sometimes called "nations." Sometimes "nations" means the other nations existing at the time, a reference to the known world. Very rarely (if ever) does scripture speak about all nations everywhere past, present and future.

My bad. I have to go. The short answer is Jews are being judged in the passage but it extends to all people everywhere of all times simply because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death (and destruction).
 
I believe it is the judgment. Judgement day.

Not sure if I understand your question on sola fide & sola gratia of how they would fit in.
Are you mixing salvation with judgment day?

Please explain?

Thanks
I was wondering which judgment because the one in Rev 20 'earth and heaven flees away' v.11 but in Mt 25 it 'appears' to be on earth.
I see your point about 'sola fide' and gratia.. I guess I should have included 'when' as it seems to happen after the Tribulation
 
My bad. I have to go. The short answer is Jews are being judged in the passage but it extends to all people everywhere of all times simply because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death (and destruction).
Just Jews? not all as well? (except Christians?, as we have already passed from judgement -Jn 5:24).
 
I was wondering which judgment because the one in Rev 20 'earth and heaven flees away' v.11 but in Mt 25 it 'appears' to be on earth.
Consider the context. Matt 25:31-32
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

All this is speaking about the final judgment. He is coming in his glory with all the angels.
All nations gathered before him, and he separated the sheep from the goats
 
I was wondering which judgment because the one in Rev 20 'earth and heaven flees away' v.11 but in Mt 25 it 'appears' to be on earth.
Scripture uses a lot of parallelism, especially the OT. I believe we get different parts throughout scripture. All pointing to the same event "the second coming".
 
Just Jews? not all as well? (except Christians?, as we have already passed from judgement -Jn 5:24).
Yep. Just Jews.


I'm going to "purge the system" so this will probably be lengthy, and I'll end up having to divide it up into smaller posts 😖. Please bear with me.

Part 1:

There were no Christians in existence at Matthew 25. Jesus had not yet died, he'd not yet resurrected, and the Spirit's falling ala Pentecost had not yet occurred. None of the Messianic or Spirit-inhabiting prophecies had been fulfilled. That, however, does not mean Jesus' words back then do not apply to Christians. Jesus speaking in Matthew 25 is Jesus speaking at the half-way point (or more like the 7/8ths point of the promises God made to Abraham and Jesus. Prior to Calvary Jews awaited the coming Messiah and a few of them in Jesus' day (like Simeon in Luke 2, John the Baptist, Joseph of Arimathea, etc.) looked forward to the Messiah's arrival and recognized Jesus was that guy. We might include outsiders like the Centurion and the Canaanite woman, but they are the exception to the rule, not the rule, just as in ancient times there was Rahab and Naaman. The author of Hebrews explains the relationship between Old and New, or what we might call pre-Calvary believers and post-Calvary believers.

Hebrews 11:37-40
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Technically, the description the author of Hebrews just provided could apply to a plethora of people never mentioned in scripture, people all over the world. We must remember Abraham was just a guy living in Ur among what the Jews would call Gentiles or Goyim. Ethnically, Abraham's descendants were the Hebrews (Gen. 14), NOT Jews. In the chronology of scripture, the Jews do not come on the scene for several generations (2 Kngs 25). The latter get their name from the tribe of Judah, the tribe that was the largest and had the greatest amount of land and the land that covered the south/southeastern border of the promised land (which was eventually called Israel). By the time Jesus shows up there are some significant and important ethnic and theological divisions among the Jews. Ethnically there was the Jew versus Samaritan. The latter were not all from Samaria. They were Jews who'd intermarried with other cultures, other "nations" (hagoyim), other religions. They dated at least as far back as Ezra and were reviled because they adulterated the Jewish religion and had allied themselves with the Jews' enemies. By the time of the incarnation they considered themselves a form of Judaism (hence the well woman's comment, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?" and "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship," (Jn. 4). Can you imagine some first-century woman saying "you people" to Jesus? 😯🤭;)😄 Theologically, the main divide was Sadducee versus Pharisee, but the Essenes and Zealots (ancient version of jihadists, but Jewish) were in the mix. Judaism had been adulterated by Hellenism (the preamble to John's gospel is a repudiation of Hellenism) but the newer sect, the Pharisees held on to ancient beliefs in a resurrection and life after death. As far as the record of the gospels go, only those of the Pharisaic persuasion converted to Christ. There is no record of any Sadducean ever converting. Nicodemus, Joseph, Saul were all Pharisees.

When Jesus died everyone mourned and thought him dead, and dead for good. Most of their "mourning" was self-pity because they'd given up everything to follow him thinking he was going to chase out the Romans and rule Israel with moral righteousness, a pure justice and unequalled might. It did not matter that he'd explained it all to them before he died. Hard-headed folks.

The schmuck went and got himself killed 😦😟😥.
 
Part 2:

That's the set up for what is said in Matthew 25:31-46. I again remind everyone that the passage in question is part of a multi-chapter narrative by Matthew in which he recounts one single, solitary day in the life of Jesus and the twelve. Prior to that Jesus parables began taking on increasingly eschatological meaning when they had previously been soteriological in emphasis. Judgment is increasingly a theme. Jesus has come not only to save but to judge Jerusalem. It's not actually stated in the gospels, but it is likely Jesus entered the earthly City of Peace on the first day of the week during the ritual herding of the sheep in preparation for Passover. The palms were laid on the ground to keep him from having to step in sheep doodoo, as a sign of respect, adulation, and worship. No one laid palms down for the shepherds in years prior. At any rate, Jesus proceeds to the temple where he finds greed and avarice. From the inception of scripture anything not having life is called "desolate." Jesus finds the temple infested and desolate.

So he cleans it out.

What he's doing is demonstrating an obedience to the Levitical Law describing what to do when mildew, mold or bacterial infestation is found in a house (Lev. 14). That house was to be cleaned out and left uninhabited for seven days and then, at the end of the seven days, the priests were to re-inspect it and if it was clean then it could be re-inhabited and if it wasn't clean then it had to be leveled, destroyed and never again inhabited. Keep in mind Jesus does not have seven days. The sheep-herding ritual was performed four days before Pentecost! Of course, Jesus knows all of this and what he will do and what will happen over the course of the next few days.

The Matthew narrative begins with Jesus returning to the city the next day and while he is teaching in the temple the Sadducees, Pharisees, scribes, teachers of the Law - everyone in Judaic leadership - confronts, contests, and questions him. By the evening of that day Jesus has had enough and unpacks his (divine) judgment (verdict would be a more accurate term) on the Pharisees. Their "house" is desolate, and they will be accountable for the killing of God's prophets (which would include Jesus before the week had ended. He leaves the temple and takes his disciples across the saddle to the Mount of Olives where he spends the next two chapters telling the disciples what to expect. Most of it applies to them. He unequivocally states they would hear of the things he was describing; they would see those things he was describing. It's not until the end of his teaching that the prediction or prophesy becomes far-future. The narrative concludes with Matthew stating the Jewish leaders had decided that night to kill Jesus and the next night he eats his last earthly Passover meal and the next day he is dead.

Three days later the entire creation is changed.

The first Christian appears at Matthew 28 (and Luke 24). :cool:
 
Part 3:

The op asks, "Who is being judged?" Eschatologically there are two ways to look at this. One is through the context of the last days (plural) and the other is through the last day (singular). Partial-preterists like myself hold two-co-occurring views because the Matthew narrative in its entirety is specifically about the judgment and consequent last days destruction of Jerusalem but it also foreshadows the last day judgment.* Technically, in regard to the last days judgment, both Jew and Christian are judged (as evidenced by the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. In regard to the last day judgment everyone - everyone who has ever lived and ever will live - is judged. The two are not mutually exclusive in the Matthew 25:31ff text. The last days judgment occurs at the hand of the nations (goyim) being brought to bear against the nations (tribes) by God's hand just as He'd done in prior times using the Assyrians and Babylonians. Just as Assyria and Babylon had been used and then themselves judged and destroyed, so to was Rome. The last day judgment ends with the City of Peace coming down out of heaven to earth. Jesus had entered the heavenly Jerusalem - and we with him - as described in Hebrews 9-12.

Hebrews 12:18-24
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched... But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


We have a member here in CCCF who mistakenly believes ALL the letters were written to Jewish converts and NOT Gentile converts. The letter to the Hebrews is the only letter for which that might possibly be true. Whether or not that is the case the author of Hebrews (who I, personally, believe was Barnabas) makes it clear he is writing to converts to Christ, about converts to Christ. Coverts to Christ have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem. In the book of Revelation, it is called the "new" Jerusalem.

The final point, for now, is that the soteriology and eschatology overlap in several, but not all, places. Jesus often spoke conflating the two but not always, and Pauline soteriology in particular is eschatological. One has to read John's gospel to read about the last day. I don't think anyone else uses the phrase in singular conjugation (I'll have to check to verify that).

This was off the top of my head, and I know this is lengthy, so I appreciate the forbearance of anyone who read it all. I'll quote the Matthew 25 passage and parse it out verse by verse when I have the time and resources at hand to do so. I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, either, but I'll do that, too.










*Generally speaking, the modern futurist (Dispensationalist) denies the relevance of 70 AD and the full-preterist denies the relevance of the last day. Those in between take various views that include both last days and day.
.
 
Gentiles (Nations) or All (Jew & Gentile)?
Is this a Judgment of works? (on it's face, seems so).
How sola fide / sola gratia fit this picture?
Its right in the text..
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

He is separating the sheep (Saints) and the Goats (Wicked) at the Second Coming which is the timeframe, compare...
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
 
Its right in the text..
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

He is separating the sheep (Saints) and the Goats (Wicked) at the Second Coming which is the timeframe, compare...
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
So it sounds like you don't see it the same as the GWT judgment in Rev 20.
Who would you see as 'these, my brethren' (v.40)?
 
Back
Top