When exactly was the Messiah crucified?

[eclipseEventSigns]

As we approach another season celebrating the Resurrection of Messiah, we should remind ourselves of all the false traditions and information that surrounds this season. False information that the Church has believed in ignorance for almost 2 millennia.

The false belief that Good Friday points to the day of the week of the crucifixion is one of the greatest evidences that Christians do not care to or refuse to understand the culture of the Jewish people and by extension the design that God has created throughout history.

The Crucifixion happened on Wednesday, April 25, 31 AD. This can be proven using the text of the Bible, evidences from geology, from biology, from historical records and mathematically. Are you surprised? Why haven't you heard this before? Here are some videos that go through the evidences in detail.

Date Hidden From History

 

[Josheb]

The false belief that Good Friday points to the day of the week of the crucifixion is one of the greatest evidences that Christians do not care to or refuse to understand the culture of the Jewish people and by extension the design that God has created throughout history.

As usual, your posts are a mixture of fact, truth, and nonsense.

Just because Christians do things differently does not mean Christians are apathetic. That argument is a false cause fallacy.

The history of quatrodecimanism (Christians celebrating the Passover on Nissan 14) is readily available for anyone who knows to look and has access to a search engine. Haranguing all of Christendom because the Church decided to do Passover differently is devilish (those who unjustly criticize the Chruch and divide it a devils). The fact is, instead of marginalizing the entire body of Christ you could have posted an affirmative op explaining the history of quatrodecimanism and deliberately chose NOT to do that and to trash others instead. An example of that might look like this:

"The liturgical "passion week" calendar most congregations to which most congregations adhere is Christian tradition. Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday with the yearly herding of the sheep into Jerusalem in preparation for the Passover sacrifices/meals. The palms were likely laid on the ground in homage to keep him from having to step in sheep droppings. He chased out the sheep the day he entered, causing chaos and economic distress to the profiteering money changers who worked in collusion with the Jewish leaders. He left the city that evening and returned the next day. The next day he re-entered the city and taught in the temple. Matthew 21:18 through 26:5 covers that one day, by the end of which he had declared the temple desolate and the Jewish leaders were planning his murder. The next day he ate the Passover meal a day early. Passover fell on Wednesday - it was a yearly Sabbath, not a seventh day sabbath. After eating he and his disciples went to Gethsemane to pray, where he was arrested, beaten and mocked. The following day he was passed back and forth between Pilate and Herod, both of whom refused to play along with the Jewish religious leaders but, in the end acquiesced, and Jesus was tortured by the Romans before being matched off to Golgotha where he was hung on a cross and mocked while everyone but his mother and John abandoned him. The Jews, not wanting dead bodies hanging in public view during the Passover, asked the Romans to hasten the criminals' death but when the soldiers arrived to break their legs so they could not push up to gather breath, the found Jesus already dead. It was sundown of the Passover Sabbath. Jesus spent Thursday, Friday, and the Saturday sabbath in the grave - three days in the belly of the earth. When the two Marys went to the tomb the first day of the week he was gone.

The reason Christians celebrate the passion week differently is because of the doctrine called Qutrodecimenism (keeping Passover to Nissan 14) was changed. Jewish Passovers do not always fall on Fridays due to Judaism's lunar calendar. The earliest Christians kept the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection aligned with the Jewish calendar and that was uniform well into the second century (Polycarp, a student of John's, kept to the Jewish calendar) but as Christianity became larger and more institutionalized a movement to separate it from Judaism ensued and the matter grew in controversy with growing division between the Jerusalem and Asia Minor churches, and the church in Rome and the latter eventually won (gaining leverage because the heretical Montanists held to quatrodecimanism). The controversy was compounded by the gospels move into pagan territories where pagan religions and practices were assimilated (like that of Eostre) by Christianity (victoriously, I might add).

We should be celebrating (not just mourning) the fulfillment of the Passover's prophetic promise with a whole meal and not wafers of bread and thimbles of juice. Every Christian should participate in a Jewish Seder at least once and every Christian congregation should celebrate the Lord's Supper with an actual supper."​

The facts of history and doctrinal change can be posted without derision. Try it sometime.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

As usual your comment is full of nonsense and misinterpretation.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

As usual, your posts are a mixture of fact, truth, and nonsense.

Just because Christians do things differently does not mean Christians are apathetic. That argument is a false cause fallacy.

The history of quatrodecimanism (Christians celebrating the Passover on Nissan 14) is readily available for anyone who knows to look and has access to a search engine. Haranguing all of Christendom because the Church decided to do Passover differently is devilish (those who unjustly criticize the Chruch and divide it a devils). The fact is, instead of marginalizing the entire body of Christ you could have posted an affirmative op explaining the history of quatrodecimanism and deliberately chose NOT to do that and to trash others instead. An example of that might look like this:

"The liturgical "passion week" calendar most congregations to which most congregations adhere is Christian tradition. Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday with the yearly herding of the sheep into Jerusalem in preparation for the Passover sacrifices/meals. The palms were likely laid on the ground in homage to keep him from having to step in sheep droppings. He chased out the sheep the day he entered, causing chaos and economic distress to the profiteering money changers who worked in collusion with the Jewish leaders. He left the city that evening and returned the next day. The next day he re-entered the city and taught in the temple. Matthew 21:18 through 26:5 covers that one day, by the end of which he had declared the temple desolate and the Jewish leaders were planning his murder. The next day he ate the Passover meal a day early. Passover fell on Wednesday - it was a yearly Sabbath, not a seventh day sabbath. After eating he and his disciples went to Gethsemane to pray, where he was arrested, beaten and mocked. The following day he was passed back and forth between Pilate and Herod, both of whom refused to play along with the Jewish religious leaders but, in the end acquiesced, and Jesus was tortured by the Romans before being matched off to Golgotha where he was hung on a cross and mocked while everyone but his mother and John abandoned him. The Jews, not wanting dead bodies hanging in public view during the Passover, asked the Romans to hasten the criminals' death but when the soldiers arrived to break their legs so they could not push up to gather breath, the found Jesus already dead. It was sundown of the Passover Sabbath. Jesus spent Thursday, Friday, and the Saturday sabbath in the grave - three days in the belly of the earth. When the two Marys went to the tomb the first day of the week he was gone.​

​

The reason Christians celebrate the passion week differently is because of the doctrine called Qutrodecimenism (keeping Passover to Nissan 14) was changed. Jewish Passovers do not always fall on Fridays due to Judaism's lunar calendar. The earliest Christians kept the celebration of Christ's death and resurrection aligned with the Jewish calendar and that was uniform well into the second century (Polycarp, a student of John's, kept to the Jewish calendar) but as Christianity became larger and more institutionalized a movement to separate it from Judaism ensued and the matter grew in controversy with growing division between the Jerusalem and Asia Minor churches, and the church in Rome and the latter eventually won (gaining leverage because the heretical Montanists held to quatrodecimanism). The controversy was compounded by the gospels move into pagan territories where pagan religions and practices were assimilated (like that of Eostre) by Christianity (victoriously, I might add).​

​

We should be celebrating (not just mourning) the fulfillment of the Passover's prophetic promise with a whole meal and not wafers of bread and thimbles of juice. Every Christian should participate in a Jewish Seder at least once and every Christian congregation should celebrate the Lord's Supper with an actual supper."​

The facts of history and doctrinal change can be posted without derision. Try it sometime.

In addition, your reply is typical of the ignorance around what is the true purpose and meaning behind Passover. No Christian has the "right" to celebrate Passover differently. Passover did not happen on Friday that year. That it was changed and made a church tradition is entirely related to the anti-Jewish animosity that Christians had toward the Jewish faith. And it continues still - as is evident in your comment.

 

[Josheb]

As usual your comment is full of nonsense and misinterpretation.

It is sitting right there in this op for all to read, nonetheless, along with the meaningless dissent of Post 3 entirely lacking in substance.



The fact remains correlation is not causation. The op did not prove causation and now that the problem has been noted the lack of causation persists and the opportunity to prove causation has been ignored. If there is disagreement with the op-relevant content of Post 2 then the best play is to prove some kind of causality between change in practice and the accusation made. If such a thing exists, then it should not be difficult to prove the op. Post 3 wasted that opportunity. Prove the op! Do it with well-rendered scripture, facts, and reason. Do it affirmatively. You may not believe it, but I'm rooting for your success. I'd like us not to have the divide between us. I'll enjoy a well-made case for any position (even if the conclusions are all wrong ). Post better. Start by proving some kind of causal relationship between the lack of quartodecimanism in the modern liturgical calendar and apathy. Or.... change the position to more accurately reflect reality.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another..... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Try it.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

It is sitting right there in this op for all to read, nonetheless, along with the meaningless dissent of Post 3 entirely lacking in substance.



The fact remains correlation is not causation. The op did not prove causation and now that the problem has been noted the lack of causation persists and the opportunity to prove causation has been ignored. If there is disagreement with the op-relevant content of Post 2 then the best play is to prove some kind of causality between change in practice and the accusation made. If such a thing exists, then it should not be difficult to prove the op. Post 3 wasted that opportunity. Prove the op! Do it with well-rendered scripture, facts, and reason. Do it affirmatively. You may not believe it, but I'm rooting for your success. I'd like us not to have the divide between us. I'll enjoy a well-made case for any position (even if the conclusions are all wrong ). Post better. Start by proving some kind of causal relationship between the lack of quartodecimanism in the modern liturgical calendar and apathy. Or.... change the position to more accurately reflect reality.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another..... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Try it.

try making some sense. All the proof you need is in THE VIDEOS. Stop making nonsense posts.

 

[Josheb]

In addition, your reply is typical of the ignorance around what is the true purpose and meaning behind Passover.

Ad hominem noted. I am not ignorant of the true purpose and meaning of Passover, you have no idea what I know and understand, it was presumptive to think otherwise, and once again nothing proving the veracity of the op has been posted. All the ad hominems anyone could muster will not prove the op correct. Prove the op.

No Christian has the "right" to celebrate Passover differently.

The premise of "rights" is irrelevant. It's a red herring. There is plenty of scriptural basis for changing how Passover is celebrated but we're not at the point where that can be discussed because the claims of the op have yet to be prove. The fact that the perceived problem is construed to be one of "rights" is a problem to be solved, an inappropriately skewed way of viewing both scripture and history.

Passover did not happen on Friday that year.

Which is EXACTLY what I posted. Evidence Post 2 was not read.

That it was changed and made a church tradition is entirely related to the anti-Jewish animosity that Christians had toward the Jewish faith.

That is not entirely true. The Church was seeking to separate itself from Judaism, but that was not the primary reason for the change. Whether they were correct to do so or not, there were several reasons why the Church decided to discard quatrodecimanism, and when ANYONE, emphasizes one aspect in willful neglect (or ignorance) of the whole they are making a faulty case that is not a factual or truthful reflection of history. Whether they were correct to do so or not the change does not necessitate apathy (as was claimed in this op).

The opening post claims the change resulted in apathy ("Christians do not care..." and "refuse to understand the culture of the Jewish people"). Those accusations were not proven in the op and Posts 3 and 4 do not make any the effort to do so. Do not hate me just because I point out these deficits. Prove the op.

And it continues still - as is evident in your comment.

Baseless and irrelevant accusation. I could be proved wrong, and the op still not proved correct . Two posts have been wasted NOT proving the op. Prove the op!


.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Ad hominem noted. I am not ignorant of the true purpose and meaning of Passover, you have no idea what I know and understand, it was presumptive to think otherwise, and once again nothing proving the veracity of the op has been posted. All the ad hominems anyone could muster will not prove the op correct. Prove the op.

The premise of "rights" is irrelevant. It's a red herring. There is plenty of scriptural basis for changing how Passover is celebrated but we're not at the point where that can be discussed because the claims of the op have yet to be prove. The fact that the perceived problem is construed to be one of "rights" is a problem to be solved, an inappropriately skewed way of viewing both scripture and history.

Which is EXACTLY what I posted. Evidence Post 2 was not read.

That is not entirely true. The Church was seeking to separate itself from Judaism, but that was not the primary reason for the change. Whether they were correct to do so or not, there were several reasons why the Church decided to discard quatrodecimanism, and when ANYONE, emphasizes one aspect in willful neglect (or ignorance) of the whole they are making a faulty case that is not a factual or truthful reflection of history. Whether they were correct to do so or not the change does not necessitate apathy (as was claimed in this op).

The opening post claims the change resulted in apathy ("Christians do not care..." and "refuse to understand the culture of the Jewish people"). Those accusations were not proven in the op and Posts 3 and 4 do not make any the effort to do so. Do not hate me just because I point out these deficits. Prove the op.

Baseless and irrelevant accusation. I could be proved wrong, and the op still not proved correct . Two posts have been wasted NOT proving the op. Prove the op!


.

WATCH THE VIDEOS. Stop your pointless comments.

 

[Josheb]

try making some sense. All the proof you need is in THE VIDEOS. Stop making nonsense posts.

WATCH THE VIDEOS. Stop your pointless comments.

Here's how this will play out: 1) Make a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to topically evidence and prove this op to which I will (and others) reply accordingly...... or 2) Post irrelevant content and I continue to post what I think while ignoring everything bearing your handle. I've now thrice asked for the op to be proven and thrice now the requests have been ignored. You choose, and you choose knowing the next post tells everyone what this thread is really about because if it's not option 1 then it's just trolling.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

That is the testimony you bear about yourself. The op starts with attacks on others. It is not kind. It's judgmental and judgmental in sweeping manner with absolutely no evidence to support it. All the derision desired can be posted about the Church, and all the derision desired can be posted about me but none of it will ever have anything to do with this op and none of it will prove the op correct.

Last chance: Prove the op! and do it without mentioning ANY CCAM member.








Btw, I did watch the videos. It should not have been assumed otherwise. In the due course of time I will comment to affirm what is correct and comment to refute what is incorrect, but FIRST the onus is on you to prove changes cause apathy. If the apathy and its causes are not proven then that's fatal to the op and the videos are irrelevant. The changes could have been discussed without the rancor in this op but that was not the choice you made. YOU chose to frame this op in the context of an attack on Christianity. I chose to speak to that. Prove a causal relationship between change and apathy.
.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Here's how this will play out: 1) Make a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to topically evidence and prove this op to which I will (and others) reply accordingly...... or 2) Post irrelevant content and I continue to post what I think while ignoring everything bearing your handle. I've now thrice asked for the op to be proven and thrice now the requests have been ignored. You choose, and you choose knowing the next post tells everyone what this thread is really about because if it's not option 1 then it's just trolling.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

That is the testimony you bear about yourself. The op starts with attacks on others. It is not kind. It's judgmental and judgmental in sweeping manner with absolutely no evidence to support it. All the derision desired can be posted about the Church, and all the derision desired can be posted about me but none of it will ever have anything to do with this op and none of it will prove the op correct.

Last chance: Prove the op! and do it without mentioning ANY CCAM member.








Btw, I did watch the videos. It should not have been assumed otherwise. In the due course of time I will comment to affirm what is correct and comment to refute what is incorrect, but FIRST the onus is on you to prove changes cause apathy. If the apathy and its causes are not proven then that's fatal to the op and the videos are irrelevant. The changes could have been discussed without the rancor in this op but that was not the choice you made. YOU chose to frame this op in the context of an attack on Christianity. I chose to speak to that. Prove a causal relationship between change and apathy.
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I'm just not interested in your continual abusive comments. Not interested whatsoever. These videos are not for people like you. They are for people interested in learning about actual history and actual facts.

 

[Josheb]

I'm just not interested in your continual abusive comments. Not interested whatsoever. These videos are not for people like you. They are for people interested in learning about actual history and actual facts.

That's okay (even if it is misrepresentative and self-contradictory).

I will continue to post in criticism of this op expecting you to keep your self-report of no interest.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

No. The expectation is for you to cease and desist your abusive and useless comments. Otherwise you will be reported.

 

[Josheb]

Here's a review of the op taken line by line...

As we approach another season celebrating the Resurrection of Messiah, we should remind ourselves of all the false traditions and information that surrounds this season.

I completely agree.

However, what, exactly is a "false" tradition?

False information that the Church has believed in ignorance for almost 2 millennia.

If that is supposed to be the definition of a "false tradition" then I disagree. Just because something is different does not mean it is false. The word "false" means "not according to truth or fact."

The false belief that Good Friday points to the day of the week of the crucifixion is one of the greatest evidences that Christians do not care to or refuse to understand the culture of the Jewish people and by extension the design that God has created throughout history.

The problem with that statement is very few Christians believe Friday is the day Jesus was crucified. We're not uneducated illiterate believers who do not own Bible and have only the teachings of institutional religion upon which to base our views. None of the Protestants are beholding to Roman Catholic teaching. Sadly, it is true that a Google search of "on what day did Jesus die" will erroneously lead to hordes of websites incorrectly stating Jesus died on Good Friday about 3 in the afternoon. I have no reservations whatsoever acknowledging that fact.

That does not mean all of Christendom literally believes it.

I, for one, stand as proof all of Christendom does not believe that way. This very week I have had this very conversation with four other ministers and ALL of them agreed with me: I've also shared these views with extended family and countless others online with uniform receipt and expressions of affirmation and gratitude. Christians are not inherently opposed to the facts of scripture and history. Jesus did not die on a Saturday. I learned of quatrodecimanism from other Christians and have heard it taught on many occasions in many congregations. The Naval Observatory used to provide an online service where anyone could plug in a date and discover on what day of the week that date fell. The crucifixion can be objectively verified not to have fallen on Friday . A person does not have to understand "the culture of the Jewish people" to know and understand that fact.

The appeal to "Jewish people" is a red herring.

It does help, immensely, to know Judaism holds to a lunar calendar (as prescribed in the OT) and that the special Sabbaths (like the various festivals and Passover) therefore do not always fall on what we call Saturday, or the seventh day sabbath. All that information is evidentiarily useful, but not necessary. The same holds true in regard to the Jewish view of the Passover, but the simple fact of whole scripture is that what was revealed in the OT about Passover was incomplete. The completed view is found in the NT and Judaism denies the veracity and efficacy of the New Testament. Most importantly, one of the most egregious mistakes to make is the Judaization of Christianity. Jews who deny Jesus are dead. Does that mean the OT should be discarded? NO! Does it mean Judaism necessarily informs Passover, or Christianity? That depends on what you mean by "informed" because a lot of views held in Judaism are wrong. As I have often posted, Tanakh is always correct, but Judaism is often wrong.

Lots of Christians understand the facts of Jesus' last earthly week AND still practice a liturgical calendar consciously knowing the two are not identical AND they do so in good faith and good conscience. The two (the Hebrew Calendar and the liturgical calendar) are not wholly mutually exclusive conditions.


That being said, I completely agree with the op as it pertains to those who follow any tradition blindly, especially to the point of an unwillingness to accommodate the facts of scripture and history. Those people are ideologues and ideology risks idolatry. Christians in that group do not constitute the entirety of Christendom. The op is, therefore, wrong to indict all of Christianity, and wrong do do so in ignorance of the facts of Christianity, and wrong to do so in the face of proof presented by me (and eventually the others who will weigh in on this). Lots of Christians know about Nissan 14.

The op is a mixture of fact, truth and nonsense. The facts and truth can and should be affirmed and commended. Jesus died on Wednesday and the gospels inform the "schedule" or "calendar" of his last days. That record is firmly rooted and filled with meaning and significance first revealed in the OT. The nonsense should be repudiated.

The Crucifixion happened on Wednesday, April 25, 31 AD.

Yep. Post 2 plainly states Jesus died on a Wednesday and lays out a summary of Christ's last week - all of which could be discussed with goodwill. Despite that indisputable evidence, the post was called, "...full of nonsense and misinterpretation," even though it agrees with the op.

That is simply, plainly, self-evidently irrational.

This can be proven using the text of the Bible, evidences from geology, from biology, from historical records and mathematically.

Yep.

Are you surprised?

Nope.

Why haven't you heard this before?

I and millions of other have heard it before and it was a gross error to think it hasn't been heard before.

Here are some videos that go through the evidences in detail.

Date Hidden From History

I'll take up the videos in separate posts when I have the time.



The fact is this op took a bad approach to the facts of scripture and history and does not accurately reflect the diversity of knowledge and understanding held by Christians. In that neglect the entirety of Christianity is judged uncaring, refusing to understand Jewish culture, and ignorant of God's design! What evidence is provided to prove those judgments?

NONE.

And then, when a knowing Christian shows up explicitly agreeing Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, offering a more conciliatory alternative to the op, his replies are called ignorant, and threats are made in a fruitless attempt to control others - thereby betraying any sincere intent to discuss the truths and faults of the op and avoiding the alternative of cogent discourse.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

@Josheb You've shown yourself to be an abusive trouble maker. Not interested.