What is Heresy?

[Carbon]

What is Heresy?​

Well, if you're interested in heresy, look into N.T. Wright's "The New Perspective on Paul." That's heresy.

 

[EarlyActs]

What is Heresy?​

Well, if you're interested in heresy, look into N.T. Wright's "The New Perspective on Paul." That's heresy.

Why?

 

[David Lamb]

Why?

Well, here is a sample paragraph from the book in question:

"Page 122:

"What Paul means by justification . . . is not “how you become a Christian," so much as “how you can tell who is a member of the covenant family. . . . [Justification]" is the doctrine which insists that all who share faith in Christ belong at the same table, no matter what their racial differences."

 

[Carbon]

Why?

Check it out, maybe you disagree?

 

[JesusFan]

Well, it is a sign and a seal. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you don't see that.

Should be done as believers Baptism though

 

[JesusFan]

You won't, either. That's because DP explicitly says salvation is by grace alone but the undeniable implication of the eschatology is that some must first perform a series of works before being brought to salvation. No one within DPism thinks that through and when it's brought up in discussion they typical response is either ad hominem or change the subject.


You were once a stanch Dispy. You then know that DPism teaches Israel, the Jewish geo-political nation state, must.....

• recapture all the land originally promised to them by God in the Abrahamic covenant,
• build another temple,
• re-establish the Levitical priesthood,
• and re-institute animal sacrifices.

Only then will the Jews be converted to Christ. There is a list of events that DPism teaches will occur (like a separated rapture and Jesus' physical return to earth to establish a physical kingdom and his monarchy will last a literal 1000 years). but those four events listed are the relevant teaching of Dispensational Premillennialism.


Yes?

I still though hold to premil eschatology, but from the perspective of Historical view, and like Spurgeon, do still see a hope for national israel but that will be happening at time of the Second coming event, so all Jews right now still must go thru the Lord jesus and into the NC, and be part of spiritual Israel , with both saved jews and Saved gentiles are Lord Jesus the Mess

 

[JesusFan]

What is more antisemitic than teaching that says 2-3 million Jews are going to have to die? Granted, that's only a third of those destroyed in the holocaust, but expecting a third of Israeli Jews to die still sound pretty antisemitic.

I am not aware of anyone in this entire forum who subscribes to Replacement Theology, so I consider that statement irrelevant at best and at worst a red herring. The relevant facts of scripture are that....

• salvation is by grace through faith and not by works
• God has only one people
• the Gentile converts to Christ are grafted into and already existing tree with what you call "Jewish converts,"
• God fulfills God's promises, not Jews or Christians.

Dispensational Premillennialism gets all four points incorrect. I do not see Christians replacing Jews, either. It is incorrect to say Jews fulfill God's promises and correct to say Christians (whether converted Jews or converted Gentiles) are the fulfillment. We're the fulfillment, not the fulfillers.

Are you referring here to the OT prophecies where in the Day of Jacob Troubles states a large of jews shall be killed off by the enemy?

 

[JesusFan]

Well, here is a sample paragraph from the book in question:

"Page 122:

"What Paul means by justification . . . is not “how you become a Christian," so much as “how you can tell who is a member of the covenant family. . . . [Justification]" is the doctrine which insists that all who share faith in Christ belong at the same table, no matter what their racial differences."

Sounds like something NT Wrong would support and state

 

[JesusFan]

What is Heresy?​

Well, if you're interested in heresy, look into N.T. Wright's "The New Perspective on Paul." That's heresy.

Agreed with you on that assessment, as he seems to deny/redefine Pauline Justification in a way it would seem tryin g to reconnect and reunite us back now to "mother Rome"

 

[CrowCross]

So..... even though Revelation presents the evnt as the new heavens and earth coming down out of heaven to the earth, it would be better to say something like the earth is integrated with all the rest of creation so that the distinctions previously existing no longer exist. I'm inclined to say it will be better than Eden. Eden was separated (Gen. 1:1).

I would say the earth was once using your term "integrated" with heaven.

Romans 8:
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time

 

[Carbon]

Should be done as believers Baptism though

I’m not credo Baptist.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, it is a sign and a seal. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you don't see that.

Water baptism a sign, yes....but I don't think it's the seal...but a sign or demonstration of the seal.

 

[CrowCross]

Aren't converted Jews Christians?

Of course....but that isn't the point.

I'm presenting in more in the light of "Jews and Gentiles".

 

[CrowCross]

That's because you dont quite understand it. Being a dipsy, you've been catacized into believing such. I do not mean to be insulting or disrespectful, but I am serious.

You're right...I don't see it your way. BTW, I see the term "Dipsy" as being derogatory. It has the connontation of one being a "dip" or a dippy person meaning "the image of a head that is ‘not screwed on’ and thus moves up and down like a bird dipping its beak"

As a "dispensationalist" I don't see the christians replacing the Jews concerning Gods promises.
As a "dispensationalist" I see the book of Revelation dealing with Israel and the bringing of Israel to the recognition that Jesus is God their savior.

I see "people of faith" saying we should support Israel no matter what.
I see "people of faith" saying we should separate completely from Israel.

 

[CrowCross]

What is more antisemitic than teaching that says 2-3 million Jews are going to have to die? Granted, that's only a third of those destroyed in the holocaust, but expecting a third of Israeli Jews to die still sound pretty antisemitic.

Where is that taught?

I am not aware of anyone in this entire forum who subscribes to Replacement Theology, so I consider that statement irrelevant at best and at worst a red herring. The relevant facts of scripture are that....

• salvation is by grace through faith and not by works
• God has only one people
• the Gentile converts to Christ are grafted into and already existing tree with what you call "Jewish converts,"
• God fulfills God's promises, not Jews or Christians.

Dispensational Premillennialism gets all four points incorrect. I do not see Christians replacing Jews, either. It is incorrect to say Jews fulfill God's promises and correct to say Christians (whether converted Jews or converted Gentiles) are the fulfillment. We're the fulfillment, not the fulfillers.

Now you are presenting the red herring. Mod Comment: Demonstrate the red herring—explain why you say it is a red herring.

• salvation is by grace through faith and not by works.....as a "Dispensational Premillennialism" as you put it, I agree that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Why would you claim for me that I believe otherwise?
• God has only one people....once again as a as a "Dispensational Premillennialist" as you put it, I agree God has one people. I also understand God has promised to bring "Israel" into that "one people".
• the Gentile converts to Christ are grafted into and already existing tree with what you call "Jewish converts,"....No, that's not what I said but another of your red herrings assigning your strange understanding to what I believe. The OT Jews were not saved simply because they were Jews. To sum it up simply, the OT Jews were saved because through faith they looked forward towards the coming of their Savior. Many of them...even to today...missed it and God then grafted in the Gentile believers. As a "Dispensational Premillennialism" I understand that God will us the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation to bring salvation to Gods chosen nation...ISRAEL.
• God fulfills God's promises, not Jews or Christians.....Once again as a "Dispensational Premillennialist" I agree.

Mod Edit: Objectionable speech removed. Please speak to the point, not to the poster
There are Zionist Jews.
There are Kabbalist Jews.
There are "political" Jews
There are citizen Jews.
There are Messianic Jews.
There are the "christians are now Jews.
as well as others not mentioned on the list.

 

[Josheb]

I still though hold to premil eschatology, but from the perspective of Historical view, and like Spurgeon, do still see a hope for national israel but that will be happening at time of the Second coming event, so all Jews right now still must go thru the Lord jesus and into the NC, and be part of spiritual Israel , with both saved jews and Saved gentiles are Lord Jesus the Mess

Great. However, we're not at this moment discussing your personal viewpoint on end times. We're specifically discussing heresy, and the premise Dispensational Premillennialism is demonstrably heretical. One specific example of that we were discussing is the fact they claim to uphold a view of salvation that is by grace and not works but the facts of the theology unavoidably evidence the accompanying existence of what is, logically speaking, a salvation by works.

1. Does it make sense to you that I would tell you, "You must first build a temple before God will save you"?
2. Isn't a requirement to perform some work first and predicate a subsequent salvation upon that work a works-based salvation?

Assuming your answers to those two questions are 1. No and 2. Yes, then you have all the evidence needed to understand the heresy in Dispensational Premillennialism's soteriology (and ecclesiology). There's no need to change the subject to your personal view on the end times (unless you'd like everyone here to examine it for heresy ).

 

[Carbon]

You're right...I don't see it your way. BTW, I see the term "Dipsy" as being derogatory. It has the connontation of one being a "dip" or a dippy person meaning "the image of a head that is ‘not screwed on’ and thus moves up and down like a bird dipping its beak"

As a "dispensationalist" I don't see the christians replacing the Jews concerning Gods promises.
As a "dispensationalist" I see the book of Revelation dealing with Israel and the bringing of Israel to the recognition that Jesus is God their savior.

I see "people of faith" saying we should support Israel no matter what.
I see "people of faith" saying we should separate completely from Israel.

I’m sorry for using the term dipsy. My apologies.

I will try to remember to not use that term

 

[Josheb]

Are you referring here to the OT prophecies where in the Day of Jacob Troubles states a large of jews shall be killed off by the enemy?

I am referring to the teaching in Dispensational Premillennialism asserting a third of Israel (which would Jews) are going to be destroyed in the end times.

You're committing a flaw in reason when asking me about scripture because when it comes to the end times your answer and my answer to questions about scripture are ALWAYS going to be different than what the Dispensational Premillennialists says about the exact same text. I don't read ANY scripture to state a third of all Jews will be destroyed in the future. That might happen but if it does it will not be because of, or a fulfillment of, some eschatological text in the Bible. It might happen consequent to a Dispensationalist reading of some text, but not an objective exegetical reading.

 

[Josheb]

I would say the earth was once using your term "integrated" with heaven.

I do not know what that means. The sentence is incoherent. The earth does not use terms. I assume there's a typo, so if you'll fix it I'll address the matter of Romans 8:19-22 accordingly. However, I will now say the "groaning" is evidence of continued separation, not the kind of integration described in Rev. 21-22.

 

[CrowCross]

I’m sorry for using the term dipsy. My apologies.

I will try to remember to not use that term

I appreciate that. No problem.