What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?

[Dave]

Stop ten atheist on the street and ask them what the Gospel is, and most will give you an answer that shows that they get the gist of it. It may be lacking in the details, but they'll give some basic understanding. We call it a simple Gospel message for a reason. It's simple. From the perspective of the flesh, get delivered from that which is killing you. Jesus can do that. The Gospel message is not a message for the healthy, but for the sick. The people who come to Jesus are the ones bottoming out. They may be incapable of seeing the love in it, but they still want to be cured.

Jesus said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Even in Alcoholics Anonymous, before it was secularized, they invited people in and began walking them through the repentance process, the steps, and it was through the steps that they were introduced to Jesus. In the steps if you replaced the term alcohol with sin....and in the term Higher power was assumed to be God, or Jesus. The idea was that only Jesus could set a person free from the bondage of alcoholism/sin. The alternative is the modern day higher power and being what is called a dry drunk. They stopped drinking, but the bondage was still there. Anyways, the only qualification that one needed to go to A.A. was that you bottomed out and where ready for the truth. There was no great spiritual insight, or great love that motivated this. They just wanted out from the mess that they created and admitted, that they were powerless to do it.

If you want to see the steps for yourself

The Twelve Steps | Alcoholics Anonymous

The “Twelve Steps” are the core of the A.A. program of personal recovery from alcoholism.

www.aa.org

The Gentiles were grafted in to provoke the Jews to jealousy. That doesn't sound like the perfect spiritual motive, does it? God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, as someone mentioned in another thread, isn't necessarily motivated by way of Holy Ghost goose bumps. It's from the Spirit, but doesn't seem to be producing any kind of regeneration.

You might say what about desire? But anyone who is sick desires to get better.

Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

If yes, can a person produce that faith without an unregenerate heart?

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps him from coming to faith?

What is enough faith? What makes a faith genuine?

I might challenge your interpretation of scripture. If you don't like that, please don't respond. This will not be the run of the mill Calvinism-Arminianism thread. At least I'll try to test everything that can be legitimately questioned, even if it's not popular.

Dave

 

[Arial]

Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

It depends on what they are genuinely wanting. A person may genuinely want something, and someone tells them only Jesus can give that to them so they go to Jesus for that thing. I have seen people answer an altar call because their need was for the court to decide in their favor in a custody battle. They got the impression if you asked the right person, your wish would be granted. No, that is not genuine faith. But we have a cart/horse situation here too, at least in the way the question is posed.

The Bible tells us no one CAN come to Jesus unless the Father grants it to them. John 6:63-65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and d life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) ANd he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Our faith is not based on our wanting. It is IN the person and work of Jesus. So you have asked a question that really cannot be answered with a simple yes or no. There are no particulars given and no one can presume the condition of a persons heart or know what God is doing.

If yes, can a person produce that faith without an unregenerate heart?

A person can't produce that faith with an unregenerate heart or a regenerate heart. The heart that has been regenerated possesses that faith because it has been given to them. Eph 2 By grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves but is a gift of God---. The unregenerated heart cannot produce anything that leads to life, for it is dead in trespasses and sins. It cannot bring itself to life.

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps him from coming to faith?

Life. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and life."

What is enough faith? What makes a faith genuine?

It can be smaller than a mustard seed. It is whatever God gives. God makes a faith genuine because he is the one that has it and gives it. Humans do not sit in judgement on what is enough and what isn't or whether or not a person has "enough."

 

[John Bauer]

Stop 10 atheists on the street and ask them, "What is the gospel?" and most [of them] will give you an answer which shows they get the gist of it. [While] it may be lacking in the details, they'll give some basic understanding. We call it a simple gospel message for a reason: It [really is] simple.

Some friendly pushback from the perspective of Reformed covenantal apologetics:

The gospel is simple only for those to whom the Spirit gives eyes to see and ears to hear. To claim that atheists "get the gist" of it apart from faith is to misunderstand both the nature of the gospel and the noetic effects of sin. Instead of affirming their cognitive proximity to the truth, we must press the antithesis: They may know of the gospel (intellectually) but, apart from the grace of God, they don't and indeed cannot know the gospel (existentially).

1. Cognitive familiarity is not the same thing as spiritual understanding. The gospel is not merely a set of propositional truths to be grasped intellectually. It is the power of God unto salvation, revealed through the Spirit of God. Paul explicitly says, "The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor 2:14). Even if an atheist can repeat back something that approximates "Jesus died for sins so people can go to heaven," such parroting doesn't constitute true understanding. Why? Because true understanding of the gospel involves spiritual illumination, repentance, and submission to the lordship of Christ (2 Cor 4:3–6).

2. Their world-view is antithetical to the gospel, so they can't get the gist of it. Your claim assumes a kind of epistemological neutrality (i.e., that the unbeliever is capable on their own terms of accurately appraising gospel truth). But there is no such thing as epistemological neutrality. All people interpret facts through the lens of their world-view. The unbeliever is not just uninformed about the gospel; he is at enmity with it (Rom 8:7). The natural man's problem is not primarily that he lacks information, but that he suppresses (rather than presupposes) the truth in unrighteousness. Atheists don't "get the gist of it" because the meaning of the gospel is not reducible to surface-level facts. It is covenantal and eschatological, proclaiming that Jesus is the risen Lord who demands repentance and faith, and that, apart from him, one remains under God’s wrath.

3. The gospel is simple only to the regenerate. There is a qualified truth in saying that the gospel is "simple," but that simplicity is not accessible through mere cognition. It is accessible only through divine grace. Jesus thanked the Father that he has "hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children." The simplicity of the gospel lies in the clarity of its core message, not in some reducibility to mere intellectual assent. Simplicity, in the biblical sense, refers to its perspicuity for faith, not its accessibility to the unbelieving mind.

4. Implications for evangelism and apologetics: Statements like the one you made risk minimizing the spiritual blindness of the unregenerate heart. They undercut the need for regeneration and the Spirit's work in making the gospel intelligible. This not only blunts the edge of biblical evangelism but invites an anthropocentric gospel that assumes all people are neutral truth-seekers who just need better information. As Christians we must admit that the unbeliever can repeat gospel slogans but the real issue is whether he can interpret them rightly within the only worldview that makes sense of them—and he cannot apart from the regenerating and illuminating work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

Stop ten atheist on the street and ask them what the Gospel is, and most will give you an answer that shows that they get the gist of it. It may be lacking in the details, but they'll give some basic understanding. We call it a simple Gospel message for a reason. It's simple. From the perspective of the flesh, get delivered from that which is killing you. Jesus can do that. The Gospel message is not a message for the healthy, but for the sick. The people who come to Jesus are the ones bottoming out. They may be incapable of seeing the love in it, but they still want to be cured.

Jesus said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Even in Alcoholics Anonymous, before it was secularized, they invited people in and began walking them through the repentance process, the steps, and it was through the steps that they were introduced to Jesus. In the steps if you replaced the term alcohol with sin....and in the term Higher power was assumed to be God, or Jesus. The idea was that only Jesus could set a person free from the bondage of alcoholism/sin. The alternative is the modern day higher power and being what is called a dry drunk. They stopped drinking, but the bondage was still there. Anyways, the only qualification that one needed to go to A.A. was that you bottomed out and where ready for the truth. There was no great spiritual insight, or great love that motivated this. They just wanted out from the mess that they created and admitted, that they were powerless to do it.
If you want to see the steps for yourself

The Twelve Steps | Alcoholics Anonymous

The “Twelve Steps” are the core of the A.A. program of personal recovery from alcoholism.

www.aa.org

The Gentiles were grafted in to provoke the Jews to jealousy. That doesn't sound like the perfect spiritual motive, does it? God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, as someone mentioned in another thread, isn't necessarily motivated by way of Holy Ghost goose bumps. It's from the Spirit, but doesn't seem to be producing any kind of regeneration.
You might say what about desire? But anyone who is sick desires to get better.
Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

If yes, can a person produce that faith without an unregenerate heart?
What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps him from coming to faith?
What is enough faith? What makes a faith genuine?
I might challenge your interpretation of scripture. If you don't like that, please don't respond. This will not be the run of the mill Calvinism-Arminianism thread. At least I'll try to test everything that can be legitimately questioned, even if it's not popular.

An unregenerated spirit is still spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1), an unregenerated spirit is not born again into eternal life by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), that rebirth depending on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so (Jn 3:6-8).

 

[ReverendRV]

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?

Circumcision of the heart...

 

[Carbon]

Stop ten atheist on the street and ask them what the Gospel is, and most will give you an answer that shows that they get the gist of it. It may be lacking in the details, but they'll give some basic understanding. We call it a simple Gospel message for a reason. It's simple. From the perspective of the flesh, get delivered from that which is killing you. Jesus can do that. The Gospel message is not a message for the healthy, but for the sick. The people who come to Jesus are the ones bottoming out. They may be incapable of seeing the love in it, but they still want to be cured.

Jesus said "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Even in Alcoholics Anonymous, before it was secularized, they invited people in and began walking them through the repentance process, the steps, and it was through the steps that they were introduced to Jesus. In the steps if you replaced the term alcohol with sin....and in the term Higher power was assumed to be God, or Jesus. The idea was that only Jesus could set a person free from the bondage of alcoholism/sin. The alternative is the modern day higher power and being what is called a dry drunk. They stopped drinking, but the bondage was still there. Anyways, the only qualification that one needed to go to A.A. was that you bottomed out and where ready for the truth. There was no great spiritual insight, or great love that motivated this. They just wanted out from the mess that they created and admitted, that they were powerless to do it.

Sinner sins because they love their sin, and they are God haters.
Alcoholics don't necessarily hate their addiction, at least not until it starts destroying their lives.

Not a good analogy, Dave . Try again.

 

[Carbon]

The Gentiles were grafted in to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Well, sure, because they rejected the gospel, remember?

That doesn't sound like the perfect spiritual motive, does it? God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, as someone mentioned in another thread, isn't necessarily motivated by way of Holy Ghost goose bumps. It's from the Spirit, but doesn't seem to be producing any kind of regeneration.

Dave, are you trying to use scripture to prove your synergistic religion again? Let's move forward, and remember context; keep things in context.

You might say what about desire?

eisegesis preaching, you might say.

But anyone who is sick desires to get better.

So, you're telling lost sinners they should desire Christ even though scripture teaches the opposite? Dave, shame on you, you're preaching a different gospel.

Can a person come to Jesus genuinely wanting, but not yet genuinely loving, and have that considered a genuine faith?

Huh?

If yes, can a person produce that faith without an unregenerate heart?

According to you, yes, obviously. According to God's word? No.

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps him from coming to faith?

Regeneration.

What is enough faith? What makes a faith genuine?

I'm sure you will tell us.

I might challenge your interpretation of scripture. I challenge yours.

If you don't like that, please don't respond.

No worries here.

This will not be the run of the mill Calvinism-Arminianism thread. At least I'll try to test everything that can be legitimately questioned, even if it's not popular.

Dave

No worries here. Enjoy yourself.

 

[Carbon]

The Gentiles were grafted in to provoke the Jews to jealousy. That doesn't sound like the perfect spiritual motive, does it? God drawing people, or to drag, pull, or persuade, as someone mentioned in another thread, isn't necessarily motivated by way of Holy Ghost goose bumps. It's from the Spirit, but doesn't seem to be producing any kind of regeneration.

It dont sound like you really understand this passage, Dave.

 

[John Bauer]

You're telling lost sinners they should desire Christ even though scripture teaches the opposite?

Well, yes, they SHOULD desire Christ—because he is eminently desirable.

But they don't desire him—because their unregenerate hearts are corrupted and disordered.

 

[Carbon]

Well, yes, they SHOULD desire Christ—because he is eminently desirable.

But they don't desire him—because their unregenerate hearts are corrupted and disordered.

Thanks, that's what I meant to say. I'll fix that.

 

[Carbon]

So, you're telling lost sinners they should desire Christ even though scripture teaches the opposite? Dave, shame on you, you're preaching a different gospel.

@Dave
@John Bauer pointed out where I messed up here. So, I'm fixing it.

So, you're telling lost sinners they should desire Christ even though scripture teaches that they cannot? As @John Bauer pointed out, they should, but they cannot until they are regenerated. Dave, shame on you, you're preaching a different gospel.

 

[David Lamb]

Stop ten atheist on the street and ask them what the Gospel is, and most will give you an answer that shows that they get the gist of it. It may be lacking in the details, but they'll give some basic understanding.

I have found in evangelism here in the UK that people generally do not have a gist of the gospel. I have come across far more people who think that if you do your best to live a good life, or if you are sincere in your beliefs, or if your parents were Christians, then you will be OK with God. Sadly, very few have the biblical idea of all humans being sinners in God's sight, in need of a Saviour.

 

[makesends]

What does an unregenerate heart lack that keeps a person from coming to faith?

Circumcision of the heart...

In Deuteronomy 10:16 they are told to circumcise their hearts? Does that imply that they are able to do so?

Deuteronomy 30:6 says, "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts"

True, good exegesis shows that I am not using those verses correctly—that is, they are talking about faithfulness and not exactly about salvation. But then, where does that leave what you said?

My point is that circumcision of the heart, which is indeed involving the will, is a result of regeneration. One does not come to faith by circumcising their heart. But one does open the door to fellowship with the Lord their God.

 

[makesends]

I have found in evangelism here in the UK that people generally do not have a gist of the gospel. I have come across far more people who think that if you do your best to live a good life, or if you are sincere in your beliefs, or if your parents were Christians, then you will be OK with God. Sadly, very few have the biblical idea of all humans being sinners in God's sight, in need of a Saviour.

I run into that everywhere. In the end, they seem to think, it boils down to conscience. And a little better than 50-50 is good enough, they hope.

 

[Carbon]

I have found in evangelism here in the UK that people generally do not have a gist of the gospel. I have come across far more people who think that if you do your best to live a good life, or if you are sincere in your beliefs, or if your parents were Christians, then you will be OK with God. Sadly, very few have the biblical idea of all humans being sinners in God's sight, in need of a Saviour.

Amen brother. That seems like a common view

 

[ReverendRV]

In Deuteronomy 10:16 they are told to circumcise their hearts? Does that imply that they are able to do so?

Deuteronomy 30:6 says, "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts"

True, good exegesis shows that I am not using those verses correctly—that is, they are talking about faithfulness and not exactly about salvation. But then, where does that leave what you said?

My point is that circumcision of the heart, which is indeed involving the will, is a result of regeneration. One does not come to faith by circumcising their heart. But one does open the door to fellowship with the Lord their God.

The Holy Spirit Circumcises the Heart. I view any Command/Instruction from the Old Covenant as a Law. We are unable to Keep the Law. Reading Duet 10:16 my way; will pull the rug out from under Provisionists who say they can Circumcise their own hearts...

There is nothing they were told to do, that they could do without Spot. There's no need for a dual interpretation of Circumcision of the Heart; it's a Tautology...

 

[Eleanor]

I have found in evangelism here in the UK that people generally do not have a gist of the gospel. I have come across far more people who think that if you do your best to live a good life, or if you are sincere in your beliefs, or if your parents were Christians, then you will be OK with God. Sadly, very few have the biblical idea of all humans being sinners in God's sight, in need of a Saviour.

Not enough Luther in their blood. . .

 

[Dave]

Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who already lack the capacity to understand?

If Jesus is the Word, and the Word is spirit and life, and living, then would hearing the Word of God have the capacity to open the eyes and heart of an unbeliever?

The Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

Faith comes by hearing right? I'm trying not to send this thread down the same path as the last one, but I must maintain, that we begin being perfected when we receive the Holy Spirit, as a result of faith. And having begun in the Spirit ( "begun" being perfected emphasized), that leaves the circumcision of the heart as a result of faith.

So how much power does the Word of God have? Can we learn something from Jesus' healing ministry? Does it in any way typify the spiritual side of things and can we learn something from that?

I ran into this while browsing.

Isaiah 42: 6-7 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Is our being a light to the world supposed to open blind eyes? Is it so people can see (as a child) what they need to understand?

Dave

 

[Eleanor]

Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who already lack the capacity to understand?

If Jesus is the Word, and the Word is spirit and life, and living, then would hearing the Word of God have the capacity to open the eyes and heart of an unbeliever?

The Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

Faith comes by hearing right? I'm trying not to send this thread down the same path as the last one, but I must maintain, that we begin being perfected when we receive the Holy Spirit, as a result of faith.

That's where you go off the rail.

The spiritually dead cannot believe or have faith (Jn 3:3-5).
They must be born again into eternal life by the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to believe.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

repentance