What are our implications by "unresurrected flesh", as concerning the fallen / 'old man'?

[Hazelelponi]

The law is not of grace. It was given because of transgressions; and it was given so that sin might be revealed as it is - exceedingly sinful. By the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus died so we could follow His law without fear (fear comes from judgement) because of our own failings.

We love God, we follow His law in this life, we trust in Him and His work alone for salvation.

Pretending we have no duties to God to do the things He loves isn't something I would ever do.

God loves us, and we love Him so we do the good works we were put on this earth to do, as best as we are able.

That's it. And that's it.

God's law no longer brings judgement to those who are in Christ who are enabled/empowered by His Holy Spirit to follow Him and His way. Good day.

 

[Eleanor]

And the rest of the story:

That's why Paul called it the Law of the Spirit of Life, there's a law still at work, it's just empowering in function to do the law, instead of accusing in function which is ultimately unhelpful.

The word "law" has a semantic range; and it is used differently, in different contexts. The law of the Spirit of Life means, not a set of statutes (like the ten commandments), but the principle of the Spirit of Life.

Whether by the Administrative Head of Grace, or by the accusatory head of the curse, the one thing that never changed was the law itself.

Christians are dead to the law, because Christ (the embodiment of the law) was nailed to the cross, so that the list of commandments was taken out of the way.

Col. 2:13,14 (WEB)
13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

The only thing that changed was the administration of justice and mercy in relation to it.

This is absolutely incorrect.

Rom. 7:3-6
3 So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

And such were some of you, still today with our flesh we sometimes struggle.

I certainly do. I am struggling with how to take my natural reactions and move them into the category of something I can control as easily as I control matter or space in my dreams. Even while in mid reaction. (Don't be the domino of evil, be the welded steel that cannot fall,).

Yes; but, the way of victory over our sin, is through relationship with the Lord, being led by the Holy Spirit, not by attempting to keep a set of rules, no matter how good those rules might be.

That's the matter and space I need full mastery of, myself, even though we are under Grace we need to see what law is, not to go back into ignorance of good and evil, but to go forward in our mastery over evil

The law was a slave tutor, to lead us to Christ; however, now that we are in Christ, we are freed from the law, to live to another - the resurrected Lord.

The law is the tree Adam and Eve ate from, the knowledge of good and evil.
.the healing is Grace, the healing is the Tree of Life.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave man a conscience. It was not about knowledge of a set of statutes.

The Tree of Life represents a few things, including wisdom (see the verses immediately below), but, primarily, it refers to the Lord himself, since he is THE LIFE.

Pro. 3:13,18
13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gets understanding.
...
18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her. Happy is everyone who retains her.

But the healing is not erasure. The law is still there, and it's still a tree with good fruit. It causes you to know what is good and what is evil, not to do it.

By the law is knowledge of sin; but, it also stirs up sin and gives no power to overcome it.

Life is what causes us to do it. Grace is the healing from the knowledge.

Wouldn't you think?

A world of frustration is what will happen if you live your life by trying to keep God's laws. Instead of that, seek the Lord in prayer, to cultivate fellowship with him and become more sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will always lead you to do what is good in his sight and you won't need the laws to tell you what to do, or not do.

If you go astray (as we all do sometimes), you will hear a word behind you, saying, "This way that you should walk.".

 

[Eleanor]

The law is fufilled simply by loving (Ro 13:8, 10).

 

[Hazelelponi]

The word "law" has a semantic range; and it is used differently, in dif

I'm sure you're correct. I'm a new Christian I simply thought we should follow Christ, who did Himself follow the law, and in fact we can't follow Christ if we do not even one item of the law.

Clearly I was wrong. I apologize for offending everyone, I had no right to give my opinion about anything.

I have no room to talk anyway. I'm sorry.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm sure you're correct. I'm a new Christian I simply thought we should follow Christ, who did Himself follow the law, and in fact we can't follow Christ if we do not even one item of the law.
Clearly I was wrong. I apologize for offending everyone, I had no right to give my opinion about anything.
I have no room to talk anyway. I'm sorry.

We follow Christ well simply by loving one another as he loved us (Jn 13:34), which thereby fulfills the whole Law (Ro 13:8, 10) even if you don't know what the Law is.

 

[Hazelelponi]

We follow Christ well simply by loving one another as he loved us (Jn 13:34), which thereby fulfills the whole Law (Ro 13:8, 10) even if you don't know what the Law is.

That's part of the law so no worries... I have been told by you and others 1,000 times that I'll go to hell if I keep any part of the law so ..

No worries

Goodbye.

Ill stop bothering you or anyone else.

I'll Leave you to telling people they are going to hell if they keep the law, then demand people keep the law, and then back around and tell people they'll go to hell for keeping it, then demand you keep it again.

It's not my area of expertise. Clearly.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No worries

Goodbye.

Ill stop bothering you or anyone else.

I'll Leave you to telling people they are going to hell if they keep the law, then demand people keep the law, and then back around and tell people they'll go to hell for keeping it, then demand you keep it again.

It's not my area of expertise. Clearly.

And I am upset and I'm not upset with you perse Eleanor, I'm probably just mad I can't do anything. Like for real physically. I did a few things yesterday and that's it, more pain so I can't move... life with disability is not particularly exciting, and is it excruciatingly painful.. life would be easier if I could function better.

But to me what I said is true, you keep saying don't keep the law only to turn around and say to keep it.

It's like dancing on the head of a pin to me and it's nonsense because to me the Bible only has one story in the end and it's the story of Christ. . It's fairly smooth going beginning to end with ultimately, only one story.

The law under the New Covenant is God's law for us, in my point of view. It's not the same law as the Old Covenant law because it's a New Covenant, we have new laws to follow which are better and are easier because God empowers us while failing in it doesn't carry any curse. Even when we fall short of His perfection.

You may see the word law as a bad word or a word we can't use, but you've done not one thing to convince me that using the word takes me out of the New Covenant and brings me under the curse and outside of Christs Covenant.

That's seems superstitious to me.

So while my pain level is so high I'm crying, that's truly what I think. There's nothing wrong with the word and there's nothing different between the word law, or rule... But what these aren't are mere suggestions, this is the way God wants us to live, and what we should be teaching so that people can mature to become more Christ-like.

We aren't teaching first century Jews and Gentiles how to become one body anymore. Now we are just one body, 2,000 years later almost.

Pretty sure we can all understand we are under the New Covenant laws now.

 

[Eleanor]

That's part of the law so no worries... I have been told by you and others 1,000 times that I'll go to hell if I keep any part of the law so ..

Is that an actual fact--I have told you that you will go to hell if you keep the law?

The irreconcilable difference underlying everything here is that your theology governs your understanding of Scripture, whereas my understanding of Scripture governs my theology.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Is that an actual fact--I have told you that you will go to hell if you keep the law?

The irreconcilable difference underlying everything here is that your theology governs your understanding of Scripture, whereas my understanding of Scripture governs my theology.

Every time you all say even indicate I am putting myself under the old covenant law ,(which carries a curse and removes me from the new covenant) you're telling me I'm going to hell because I use the word "law" instead of the preferred, no word at all

So yes, that's pretty much been it for the entire thread since I joined it. You all are making me defend the fact I can be saved and still enjoy God's law.

I'm pretty sure you've let the entire world know what you think of me. We are good.

 

[Arial]

Every time you all say even indicate I am putting myself under the old covenant law ,(which carries a curse and removes me from the new covenant) you're telling me I'm going to hell because I use the word "law" instead of the preferred, no word at all

So yes, that's pretty much been it for the entire thread since I joined it. You all are making me defend the fact I can be saved and still enjoy God's law.

I'm pretty sure you've let the entire world know what you think of me. We are good.

The use of the term "law" becomes confusing, that is all. But to say there is law, as a legal code with penalties attached, is incorrect. The old covenant had a law---a legal code with penalties for breaking it. The new covenant has no such law---we sin but do not incur the curse of a legal code. In that sense we are not under law as Israel was. Salvation is all of God from election to predestination to faith to justification to sanctification. It is all a work he does in us.

I am pretty sure I know what you mean when you say that----but it can be taken wrong as has been shown. I doubt anyone thinks you are adhering to obedience to God for salvation. Some people on this forum have said that it is the Mosaic Law we are to obey. Sabbath and festival keeping and even the dietary laws. That falls into the category of salvation plus works and/or the weaker vessel. I don't think that is what you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Some people on this forum have said that it is the Mosaic Law we are to obey. Sabbath and festival keeping and even the dietary laws. That falls into the category of salvation plus works and/or the weaker vessel. I don't think that is what you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong.

I suppose I haven't met anyone on this site pushing to follow all the Mosaic laws dietary laws etc, telling people it's a Christian faith.

To my knowledge there's no Jewish Temple (see 70AD) and no need to Christians to go to the Temple for worship (see the risen Savior) and try to convince Jews that the Messiah came, and they wouldn't allow us to proselytize in their synagogues or to the people in their country now anyway so issues like whether a new Christian should submit for circumcision is a moot point, same with pretty much all the types and shadows celebrations are fulfilled in Chris.. The Temple doesn't exist and the Jews stay away from Christians.

Except for a handful of heretics I pretty much just figured after 1900 years we were pretty clear on the main issues, like what the New Covenant is on an actual Christian website.

My dad didn't have any laws, but he had rules and there was punishment for breaking those rules.

My God says He is my Father and that if He loves me He will discipline me.

Therefore, I call it law because the Bible either says command or law for God's "rules" whatever we would like to call them now.

When I was first misunderstood because I started collapsing categories I went every post thereafter and even got help from books etc to make sure I was being super clear and on target with what I was saying so that I wasn't misunderstood.

I described, I believe anyway, a covenant theology with a proper view of sin, law and punishment (no condemnation in Christ) inside the new covenant.

I made not one error that I can find in my explanations thereafter the first few that I was collapsing because I was having to take pain meds so I tried to do my best thereafter to be very clear, and my broader explanation on point.

I was spending hours per post to make them perfect. That was the best I think I can do, the best I can explain. I missed nothing and no longer even understand the point other than to declare me condemned.

I'm over it.

 

[Arial]

I suppose I haven't met anyone on this site pushing to follow all the Mosaic laws dietary laws etc, telling people it's a Christian faith.

To my knowledge there's no Jewish Temple (see 70AD) and no need to Christians to go to the Temple for worship (see the risen Savior) and try to convince Jews that the Messiah came, and they wouldn't allow us to proselytize in their synagogues or to the people in their country now anyway so issues like whether a new Christian should submit for circumcision is a moot point, same with pretty much all the types and shadows celebrations are fulfilled in Chris.. The Temple doesn't exist and the Jews stay away from Christians.

Except for a handful of heretics I pretty much just figured after 1900 years we were pretty clear on the main issues, like what the New Covenant is on an actual Christian website.

My dad didn't have any laws, but he had rules and there was punishment for breaking those rules.

My God says He is my Father and that if He loves me He will discipline me.

Therefore, I call it law because the Bible either says command or law for God's "rules" whatever we would like to call them now.

When I was first misunderstood because I started collapsing categories I went every post thereafter and even got help from books etc to make sure I was being super clear and on target with what I was saying so that I wasn't misunderstood.

I described, I believe anyway, a covenant theology with a proper view of sin, law and punishment (no condemnation in Christ) inside the new covenant.

I made not one error that I can find in my explanations thereafter the first few that I was collapsing because I was having to take pain meds so I tried to do my best thereafter to be very clear, and my broader explanation on point.

I was spending hours per post to make them perfect. That was the best I think I can do, the best I can explain. I missed nothing and no longer even understand the point other than to declare me condemned.

I'm over it.

I don't think anyone is actually declaring you condemned. We have read too many of your posts to think that. The theologians I have read, and I agree, is rather than call the moral and behavioral aspects of Christianity law, is to use "imperatives." That removes the confusion.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't think anyone is actually declaring you condemned. We have read too many of your posts to think that. The theologians I have read, and I agree, is rather than call the moral and behavioral aspects of Christianity law, is to use "imperatives." That removes the confusion.

Okay.

I did learn I view the imperatives in a covenant context. I hadn't realized that before. I guess I see everything through that lens.

I will try and remember the word.

 

[Eleanor]

Every time you all say even indicate I am putting myself under the old covenant law

Me?

,(which carries a curse and removes me from the new covenant) you're telling me I'm going to hell because I use the word "law" instead of the preferred, no word at all

So yes, that's pretty much been it for the entire thread since I joined it. You all are making me defend the fact I can be saved and still enjoy God's law.

I'm pretty sure you've let the entire world know what you think of me.

???????

 

[Eleanor]

Hmmmmm. . . .

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hmmmmm. . . .

How do you see it? At one point it seemed to me to be arguing; to be oppositional for no reason, making no point I could discern other than to continue to declare my position incorrect though there is supporting evidence for my position from the church as being a legitimate stance to hold according to Scripture.

 

[Eleanor]

How do you see it? At one point it seemed to me to be arguing; to be oppositional for no reason, making no point I could discern other than to continue to declare my position incorrect though there is supporting evidence for my position from the church as being a legitimate stance to hold according to Scripture.

Simply put:

The New Covenant law prescribes love. . .love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34).

The Old Covenant law prescribes simply doing no harm ("thou shalt not"), which is not, and is a poor substitute for, love.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Simply put:

The New Covenant law prescribes love. . .love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34).

The Old Covenant law prescribes simply doing no harm ("thou shalt not"), which is not, and is a poor substitute for, love.

This isn't "simply put" apparently.

Jesus said He came not to change the law by one dotting of the eye or crossing of the t ( in English anyway)

This means the law NEVER changed, and certainly never changed by the second person of the Trinity, Christ Jesus.

So what happened if the law still stand's? That's what Jesus and the apostles and disciples were all explaining to us in all the epistles.

See, there wasn't ever one law for the old covenant which ended and a new law for the people under the new covenant.

There's only ever been one law for the old covenant and the new.

Any changes were changes due to specific fulfillments which occurred resultant from Christs life, death, and ressurection, and they changed because that portion of the law had a specific fulfillment attached to it that, once fulfilled, made that portion obsolete.

All Jesus Christ did was explain the meaning of the law, not change it. That's from Jesus' own words.

Everytime you say Jesus changed the law your saying you don't believe Jesus when He stated categorically that's not what he's doing.

If you love your neighbor you won't harm him in the first place, but we can still harm people we think we love too. There's a lot of horrible stuff people try and justify in the name of love.

The law was never without love .. and love wasn't some new thing suddenly added to the law either. You have to start with 1 + 1 = 2 before taking on algebraic equations.

In our day, people are often taking on the algebra without understanding 1 + 1 = 2. It's creates issues when people don't understand love means not harming the people we are supposed to love in the first place.