What are our implications by "unresurrected flesh", as concerning the fallen / 'old man'?

[makesends]

From another thread:

...This new heart wants to please God, but still has to battle our unresurrected flesh. God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If we understand this as truth, and not just our words to help us understand truth, is there an implication that the things that impel us toward evil are also Unresurrected Flesh? I'm thinking specifically of our rebellious spirit/mind, constantly chafing against the compelling of the love of Christ, and trying to assert independence. Is that part of literal flesh?

Likewise, is it an implication that when the flesh is resurrected and glorified, that we no longer have a mind, or would 'rebellious spirit/mind' be better understood as, 'sinful nature'?

 

[David1701]

From another thread:

If we understand this as truth, and not just our words to help us understand truth, is there an implication that the things that impel us toward evil are also Unresurrected Flesh? I'm thinking specifically of our rebellious spirit/mind, constantly chafing against the compelling of the love of Christ, and trying to assert independence. Is that part of literal flesh?

Likewise, is it an implication that when the flesh is resurrected and glorified, that we no longer have a mind, or would 'rebellious spirit/mind' be better understood as, 'sinful nature'?

One of the (many) things that put me off the N.I.V. was that it sometimes mistranslates the Greek word for flesh "sarx" as "sinful nature". As born again Christians, we no longer have a sinful nature; but, we do have corrupt flesh (it's not corrupt because it's material, but because of the fall of Adam; and our own sins have made it worse). The flesh includes the brain, with all the habitual synapse pathways that have been produced during our days of darkness, before we came to Christ.

Whenever this kind of conversation arises (fairly often), I ask the person to answer this question: "If we, as born again Christians, have two natures (and not one nature plus corrupt flesh), then where does the fallen nature go, when we die?". Also, there are many anecdotes of people who have had heart transplants, who have had a change of personality, including likes and dislikes; they have also sometimes gained abilities and interests they did not have previously.

See the following scriptures about our corrupt flesh (body); and the contrast between that and a born again Christian's mind and spirit.

Rom. 6:10-12 (KJV)
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom. 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 8:8-11 (WEB)
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[prism]

Simul justus et peccator

 

[makesends]

One of the (many) things that put me off the N.I.V. was that it sometimes mistranslates the Greek word for flesh "sarx" as "sinful nature". As born again Christians, we no longer have a sinful nature; but, we do have corrupt flesh (it's not corrupt because it's material, but because of the fall of Adam; and our own sins have made it worse). The flesh includes the brain, with all the habitual synapse pathways that have been produced during our days of darkness, before we came to Christ.

I agree about the NIV. I like it because, from time to time it does give a better rendition of the originals, and because they seem to go out of their way to present a different rendition, which makes me think, since I was brought up (from before I was born) on the KJV, but in this case, it is not translating, but interpreting. Whether or not the theologians involved in the translation are correct that it is the sinful nature, that is not the word(s) of the Greek.

As for the "habitual synapse pathways", (and not to entirely discount your point, but), I wouldn't go so far as to include that as a major influence for evil. The fallen nature in me is just as bad as in anyone else, and I (according to my mother) was born again at 5 years old. (And yes, she said there was a huge difference.) I find the 'old man' still as rebellious and striving against God today as it was when I was 15. I can't blame that on habit.

Whenever this kind of conversation arises (fairly often), I ask the person to answer this question: "If we, as born again Christians, have two natures (and not one nature plus corrupt flesh), then where does the fallen nature go, when we die?". Also, there are many anecdotes of people who have had heart transplants, who have had a change of personality, including likes and dislikes; they have also sometimes gained abilities and interests they did not have previously.

Not sure if the material, flesh, heart is specially relevant there. That sort of thing happens from brain trauma, stroke and even psychological trauma, too. But, yes, we are not what/who we think we are. We are what God has in mind concerning us.

See the following scriptures about our corrupt flesh (body); and the contrast between that and a born again Christian's mind and spirit.

Rom. 6:10-12 (KJV)
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom. 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 8:8-11 (WEB)
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

AMEN all that!

 

[David1701]

I agree about the NIV. I like it because, from time to time it does give a better rendition of the originals, and because they seem to go out of their way to present a different rendition, which makes me think, since I was brought up (from before I was born) on the KJV, but in this case, it is not translating, but interpreting. Whether or not the theologians involved in the translation are correct that it is the sinful nature, that is not the word(s) of the Greek.

As for the "habitual synapse pathways", (and not to entirely discount your point, but), I wouldn't go so far as to include that as a major influence for evil. The fallen nature in me is just as bad as in anyone else, and I (according to my mother) was born again at 5 years old. (And yes, she said there was a huge difference.) I find the 'old man' still as rebellious and striving against God today as it was when I was 15. I can't blame that on habit.

Not sure if the material, flesh, heart is specially relevant there. That sort of thing happens from brain trauma, stroke and even psychological trauma, too. But, yes, we are not what/who we think we are. We are what God has in mind concerning us.

AMEN all that!

Okay, I'll just ask you the question that I often ask: where will your "fallen nature" go, when your body dies? Does it go with you to heaven? Does it go to hell? Does it vanish, inexplicably? Or, does it, in fact, not exist any more, once you have been born again and are a new creation in Christ Jesus?

Christians do not have a fallen nature any longer. Our spirit has been resurrected and inhabits the Kingdom of God; but, our flesh has not yet been resurrected and there is nothing good in it.

 

[makesends]

Okay, I'll just ask you the question that I often ask: where will your "fallen nature" go, when your body dies? Does it go with you to heaven? Does it go to hell? Does it vanish, inexplicably? Or, does it, in fact, not exist any more, once you have been born again and are a new creation in Christ Jesus?

Christians do not have a fallen nature any longer. Our spirit has been resurrected and inhabits the Kingdom of God; but, our flesh has not yet been resurrected and there is nothing good in it.

If Christians "have" (whatever that means) no fallen nature, then what is it that plagues them still? Is that not the "Old Man", of Ephesians 4:22 and other places? It is not just 'this tent'.

But your question is asked from a temporal point of view. The "fallen nature" goes to Christ, and it happened at the cross, and whatever there may be relevant in that atonement. Sin is not just sins, but sinfulness. I hope you don't pretend not to sin or be rebellious anymore —is it the corrupt material of the flesh, or the corrupt nature, by which you are enticed and rebel?

 

[Arial]

If Christians "have" (whatever that means) no fallen nature, then what is it that plagues them still? Is that not the "Old Man", of Ephesians 4:22 and other places? It is not just 'this tent'.

But your question is asked from a temporal point of view. The "fallen nature" goes to Christ, and it happened at the cross, and whatever there may be relevant in that atonement. Sin is not just sins, but sinfulness. I hope you don't pretend not to sin or be rebellious anymore —is it the corrupt material of the flesh, or the corrupt nature, by which you are enticed and rebel?

We have what Scripture tells us in Romans 7:15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I don not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I don not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells with in me.

So now we need to discover what it is meant by "sin dwells in me." Is that a reference to our nature as having been corrupted by sin (starting with Adam) and we still have this same mortal and corruptible flesh. Adam and Eve were created able to die and able to be corrupted. And this will be reversed at the resurrection of those in Christ, and we will become immortal and incorruptible. We are a new creature now, but not yet.

It is the corrupted material of the flesh, corrupted by sin ( Adam was created good, not yet corrupted) and our corrupted nature.

 

[makesends]

We have what Scripture tells us in Romans 7:15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I don not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I don not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells with in me.

So now we need to discover what it is meant by "sin dwells in me." Is that a reference to our nature as having been corrupted by sin (starting with Adam) and we still have this same mortal and corruptible flesh. Adam and Eve were created able to die and able to be corrupted. And this will be reversed at the resurrection of those in Christ, and we will become immortal and incorruptible. We are a new creature now, but not yet.

It is the corrupted material of the flesh, corrupted by sin ( Adam was created good, not yet corrupted) and our corrupted nature.

Exactly!

 

[David1701]

If Christians "have" (whatever that means) no fallen nature, then what is it that plagues them still? Is that not the "Old Man", of Ephesians 4:22 and other places? It is not just 'this tent'.

Let's go by what the Bible says, shall we? I hope that we agree on Sola Scriptura.

Our body is a "tent", but that analogy is not particularly helpful, in this context, since it does not address the attributes and effects of that tent.

Rom. 7:22-25 (EMTV)
22 For I delight in the law of God in my inner being.
23 But I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind, and capturing me by the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here, we see the continuing contrast between a Christian's inner being and the flesh (outer being) with its members (parts). It is referred as "this body of death"; in other words, it is, from a spiritual point of view, the mortal enemy of a Christian, from which he needs to be delivered. The means of that deliverance (as with all our deliverances) is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

The renewed mind serves God's law, but the flesh (body) serves the law of sin.

Rom. 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what was impossible for the law to do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ do not walk (i.e. live habitually) according to the flesh (body - outward being) but according to the Spirit (who dwells within us, in fellowship with our born again human spirit); and there is no condemnation to us.

The law was weak (even in the life of a Christian) because of our flesh (body - outer being); but, God has solved the problem, by sending his Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh (he had a body that looked like ours, even though his was sinless) and condemned sin in the body, when Christ died in his sinless body, on the cross.

The righteous requirement of the law (singular - i.e. love) is fulfilled in us who do not habitually live according to the sinful body, with its various sinful desires, but according to the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9-14
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We are not "in the flesh" (i.e. not controlled by the sinful impulses of our body - outer being), but in the Spirit (i.e. led by the Holy Spirit), if He dwells in us.

If Christ is in us, then the body (flesh - outer being) is dead because of sin, but the spirit (I believe that this should not be capitalised here but refers to our born again human spirit - inner being) is alive, because of the righteousness of Christ.

Verse 13 is especially appropriate here: if we live according to the flesh (body), we will die; but, if we put to death the practices of the body (flesh) we will live. We see here that the terms "flesh" and "body" are used interchangeably, in a form of contrasting parallelism.

As many as are habitually led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God (as contrasted with those who are habitually led by the sinful impulses of their flesh/body).

But your question is asked from a temporal point of view. The "fallen nature" goes to Christ, and it happened at the cross, and whatever there may be relevant in that atonement. Sin is not just sins, but sinfulness. I hope you don't pretend not to sin or be rebellious anymore —is it the corrupt material of the flesh, or the corrupt nature, by which you are enticed and rebel?

Don't start any nonsense insinuations that my position might mean that I "...pretend not to sin or be rebellious...". I won't put up with that kind of underhanded tactic.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
If Christians "have" (whatever that means) no fallen nature, then what is it that plagues them still? Is that not the "Old Man", of Ephesians 4:22 and other places? It is not just 'this tent'.

Let's go by what the Bible says, shall we? I hope that we agree on Sola Scriptura.

Our body is a "tent", but that analogy is not particularly helpful, in this context, since it does not address the attributes and effects of that tent.

Rom. 7:22-25 (EMTV)
22 For I delight in the law of God in my inner being.
23 But I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind, and capturing me by the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here, we see the continuing contrast between a Christian's inner being and the flesh (outer being) with its members (parts). It is referred as "this body of death"; in other words, it is, from a spiritual point of view, the mortal enemy of a Christian, from which he needs to be delivered. The means of that deliverance (as with all our deliverances) is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

The renewed mind serves God's law, but the flesh (body) serves the law of sin.

I'm trying to pick up on your particular flavor of thinking here. You say concerning the Romans 7 passage you quote, "Here, we see the continuing contrast between a Christian's inner being and the flesh (outer being) with its members (parts). I suppose you get the 'inner being' by "the mind" and 'outer being' by "in my members". So, if that's where you draw that boundary, you are justified in concluding that "the flesh" is only the corrupted material shell, and not the sinful nature within. I don't see it that way. I don't limit it to this temporal body, since Romans 8 speaks of the mind (which you call, 'inner') of the flesh.

Rom. 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what was impossible for the law to do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ do not walk (i.e. live habitually) according to the flesh (body - outward being) but according to the Spirit (who dwells within us, in fellowship with our born again human spirit); and there is no condemnation to us.

The law was weak (even in the life of a Christian) because of our flesh (body - outer being); but, God has solved the problem, by sending his Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh (he had a body that looked like ours, even though his was sinless) and condemned sin in the body, when Christ died in his sinless body, on the cross.

The righteous requirement of the law (singular - i.e. love) is fulfilled in us who do not habitually live according to the sinful body, with its various sinful desires, but according to the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:9-14
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We are not "in the flesh" (i.e. not controlled by the sinful impulses of our body - outer being), but in the Spirit (i.e. led by the Holy Spirit), if He dwells in us.

If Christ is in us, then the body (flesh - outer being) is dead because of sin, but the spirit (I believe that this should not be capitalised here but refers to our born again human spirit - inner being) is alive, because of the righteousness of Christ.

Verse 13 is especially appropriate here: if we live according to the flesh (body), we will die; but, if we put to death the practices of the body (flesh) we will live. We see here that the terms "flesh" and "body" are used interchangeably, in a form of contrasting parallelism.

As many as are habitually led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God (as contrasted with those who are habitually led by the sinful impulses of their flesh/body).

I still don't see your "outward" or "outer being" and "inward" or "inner being" expressed the way you do it. It appears to me to be 'a way of thinking about it' rather than what Scripture says. I see you adding it as though by way of explanation. But I do consider it valid, and useful. My only real problem with it would be if it goes to the extent of Gnosticism or might induce one to think that the redeemed person is no longer at fault for his sin, because it is the fault of the flesh, and not of the believer.

makesends said:
But your question is asked from a temporal point of view. The "fallen nature" goes to Christ, and it happened at the cross, and whatever there may be relevant in that atonement. Sin is not just sins, but sinfulness. I hope you don't pretend not to sin or be rebellious anymore —is it the corrupt material of the flesh, or the corrupt nature, by which you are enticed and rebel?

Don't start any nonsense insinuations that my position might mean that I "...pretend not to sin or be rebellious...". I won't put up with that kind of underhanded tactic.

Pardon my crassness. It was rhetorical. It was a deprecatory remark as rather a reference to some who have come here, and on other sites I've been on, claiming that we are lost if we are not altogether sinless (or the like) and who stay on the attack against those of us who believe that Christ is our righteousness, and admit that we do fail. I expected that, if you said anything, you would say something like, "Of course not! I don't believe that!" Notice that I went directly from it, to attempting to show a distinction between 'corrupt material of the flesh' vs 'corrupt nature'.

Seeing your defensiveness here, it occurs to me to say that I hope you didn't take my bringing up in my OP, what you said from that other thread, as an attack against you or anything you said. I didn't mean it that way at all, but wrote the OP to bring out a nuance that would have been off topic, if done in the other thread.

 

[David1701]

makesends said:
If Christians "have" (whatever that means) no fallen nature, then what is it that plagues them still? Is that not the "Old Man", of Ephesians 4:22 and other places? It is not just 'this tent'.

The "old man" is who we were, in Adam. That is no longer true of a born again Christian.

Rom. 6:6-12 (EMTV)
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin may be done away with, that we should no longer serve sin.
7 For he who has died has been justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live together with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, no longer dies. Death is no longer master over Him.
10 For what death He died, He died to sin once for all; but what life He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, consider yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts,

We are told not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body, by not obeying its lusts. Our "old man" had a spirit that was dead to all that is good and of God; and in our flesh was nothing good either. Being born again, we have a spirit that is alive to God, but our body still contains nothing good; however, we are now able to rule over our mortal body and its lusts, by the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

(N.B. this is not sinless perfectionism, but a life characterised by righteousness and marred by sin; and we are fully responsible for our thoughts, words and deeds.)

I'm trying to pick up on your particular flavor of thinking here. You say concerning the Romans 7 passage you quote, "Here, we see the continuing contrast between a Christian's inner being and the flesh (outer being) with its members (parts). I suppose you get the 'inner being' by "the mind" and 'outer being' by "in my members". So, if that's where you draw that boundary, you are justified in concluding that "the flesh" is only the corrupted material shell, and not the sinful nature within. I don't see it that way. I don't limit it to this temporal body, since Romans 8 speaks of the mind (which you call, 'inner') of the flesh.

Our spirit and our flesh (body, including the brain) both have thoughts and desires, which are contrary to one another (because our spirit is resurrected and our body is not yet, so it is still corrupt).

I still don't see your "outward" or "outer being" and "inward" or "inner being" expressed the way you do it. It appears to me to be 'a way of thinking about it' rather than what Scripture says. I see you adding it as though by way of explanation. But I do consider it valid, and useful. My only real problem with it would be if it goes to the extent of Gnosticism or might induce one to think that the redeemed person is no longer at fault for his sin, because it is the fault of the flesh, and not of the believer.

You are the only one who has brought up Gnosticism. I was at pains to point out that our body is not sinful because it is material (Gnosticism) but because it was corrupted by the fall of Adam, and by our own sins (a vicious circle).

makesends said:
But your question is asked from a temporal point of view. The "fallen nature" goes to Christ, and it happened at the cross, and whatever there may be relevant in that atonement. Sin is not just sins, but sinfulness. I hope you don't pretend not to sin or be rebellious anymore —is it the corrupt material of the flesh, or the corrupt nature, by which you are enticed and rebel?

Pardon my crassness. It was rhetorical. It was a deprecatory remark as rather a reference to some who have come here, and on other sites I've been on, claiming that we are lost if we are not altogether sinless (or the like) and who stay on the attack against those of us who believe that Christ is our righteousness, and admit that we do fail. I expected that, if you said anything, you would say something like, "Of course not! I don't believe that!" Notice that I went directly from it, to attempting to show a distinction between 'corrupt material of the flesh' vs 'corrupt nature'.

You already know that I don't believe in sinless perfection or Gnosticism.

Seeing your defensiveness here, it occurs to me to say that I hope you didn't take my bringing up in my OP, what you said from that other thread, as an attack against you or anything you said. I didn't mean it that way at all, but wrote the OP to bring out a nuance that would have been off topic, if done in the other thread.

I paid no attention to the title of the thread, only what you said in posts.

 

[makesends]

The "old man" is who we were, in Adam. That is no longer true of a born again Christian.

Do you also consider the devil and his minions, then, (since he is already defeated and bound), to be without presence or influence in this world?

Rom. 6:6-12 (EMTV)
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin may be done away with, that we should no longer serve sin.
7 For he who has died has been justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live together with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, no longer dies. Death is no longer master over Him.
10 For what death He died, He died to sin once for all; but what life He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, consider yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts,

We are told not to allow sin to reign in our mortal body, by not obeying its lusts. Our "old man" had a spirit that was dead to all that is good and of God; and in our flesh was nothing good either. Being born again, we have a spirit that is alive to God, but our body still contains nothing good; however, we are now able to rule over our mortal body and its lusts, by the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

(N.B. this is not sinless perfectionism, but a life characterised by righteousness and marred by sin; and we are fully responsible for our thoughts, words and deeds.)


Our spirit and our flesh (body, including the brain) both have thoughts and desires, which are contrary to one another (because our spirit is resurrected and our body is not yet, so it is still corrupt).

My point, here, is that though we must consider ourselves new creatures, because indeed we are, nevertheless, the 'old man', though crucified, is still there and doing all 'he' can to rebel against God.

You are the only one who has brought up Gnosticism. I was at pains to point out that our body is not sinful because it is material (Gnosticism) but because it was corrupted by the fall of Adam, and by our own sins (a vicious circle).

You already know that I don't believe in sinless perfection or Gnosticism.

I did not call you a Gnostic. Back off, man. Calm down.

I paid no attention to the title of the thread, only what you said in posts.

I wasn't speaking of the title. But, nevermind. I see this is going nowhere.

 

[David1701]

Do you also consider the devil and his minions, then, (since he is already defeated and bound), to be without presence or influence in this world?

This is an egregious category error. We are talking about the life of Christians, not the devil's general influence in this world (although that has been greatly diminished, since the spread of the gospel).

My point, here, is that though we must consider ourselves new creatures, because indeed we are, nevertheless, the 'old man', though crucified, is still there and doing all 'he' can to rebel against God.

Your "old man" might still be there, but I'm born again.

I did not call you a Gnostic. Back off, man. Calm down.

Stop playing games. You brought up Gnosticism and perfectionism, with respect to what I was posting. If you continue to make snide insinuations, then blame me for exposing them, you will go on "ignore".

I wasn't speaking of the title. But, nevermind. I see this is going nowhere.

My expression was "unresurrected flesh", explicitly part of your thread's title.

I agree that this is going nowhere, and I see clearly WHY that is.

 

[Arial]

MOD HAT
May peace between the brethren prevail. Make an attempt to understand what the other is saying.

 

[Hazelelponi]

trying to pick up on your particular flavor of thinking here.

He thinks more like me in this area though less fully it seems to me anyway.

The law is still standing even though fulfilled in Christ seeking after holiness and not sinlessness is what we are to do.

It's all Grace, and it's all love. But it's God's law.

When I was first saved God left me without any real sense of law for a long time, but then in my sanctification God is bringing me more and more into alignment with His moral law.

 

[David1701]

He thinks more like me in this area though less fully it seems to me anyway.

The law is still standing even though fulfilled in Christ seeking after holiness and not sinlessness is what we are to do.

It's all Grace, and it's all love. But it's God's law.

When I was first saved God left me without any real sense of law for a long time, but then in my sanctification God is bringing me more and more into alignment with His moral law.

Law and grace operate on completely different principles. Law is, "Do this and you will be blessed; do that and you will be cursed.". Grace is, "I will work in you what I require from you, and you will be blessed.".

The principle that we live by grace through faith, not by law, is very important, in the life of a Christian. Many Christians seem to think that we are saved by grace, but then live our lives by trying to keep the 10 commandments - nothing could be further from the truth. If a Christian tries to live like this, then he ends up in Romans 7 - feeling frustrated and defeated.

Instead of trying to obey the law, we should live a life of relationship with the Lord, being led by the Holy Spirit; and, in so doing, we will find that we do keep the righteous requirement of the law.

Rom. 6:14 (EMTV) For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

The law is still applicable to those who are outside of Christ, to show them their guilt, condemnation and inability, as a precursor to telling them the solution - the gospel.

1 Tim. 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

 

[Hazelelponi]

Law and grace operate on completely different principles. Law is, "Do this and you will be blessed; do that and you will be cursed.". Grace is, "I will work in you what I require from you, and you will be blessed.".

I don't think so...

Do we follow the law because it's good (in real life) or because if you don't you will get in trouble?

Do you avoid drinking and driving because it's good to avoid, because fewer people are killed or injured when it's avoided? Or do you avoid it because you might get in trouble?

As much as we don't like the law when it's inconvenient, we all intuitively know law is about the good and not about punishment.

Grace says we won't be punished if we but ask forgiveness and repent of our sins, but that doesn't remove law, the law is still there.

That's why Paul called it the Law of the Spirit of Life, there's a law still at work, it's just empowering in function to do the law, instead of accusing in function which is ultimately unhelpful.

Whether by the Administrative Head of Grace, or by the accusatory head of the curse, the one thing that never changed was the law itself.

The only thing that changed was the administration of justice and mercy in relation to it.

1 Tim. 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

And such were some of you, still today with our flesh we sometimes struggle.

I certainly do. I am struggling with how to take my natural reactions and move them into the category of something I can control as easily as I control matter or space in my dreams. Even while in mid reaction. (Don't be the domino of evil, be the welded steel that cannot fall,).

That's the matter and space I need full mastery of, myself, even though we are under Grace we need to see what law is, not to go back into ignorance of good and evil, but to go forward in our mastery over evil

The law is the tree Adam and Eve ate from, the knowledge of good and evil.
.the healing is Grace, the healing is the Tree of Life.

But the healing is not erasure. The law is still there, and it's still a tree with good fruit. It causes you to know what is good and what is evil, not to do it.

Life is what causes us to do it. Grace is the healing from the knowledge.

Wouldn't you think?

 

[prism]

MOD HAT
Make an attempt to understand what the other is saying.

God's Word is sent into twisty channels,
How much more man's word.

 

[David1701]

I don't think so...

Do we follow the law because it's good (in real life) or because if you don't you will get in trouble?

I don't usually think about the civil law, because I've no intention of doing wrong.

Do you avoid drinking and driving because it's good to avoid, because fewer people are killed or injured when it's avoided? Or do you avoid it because you might get in trouble?

I avoid drinking alcohol (completely) because I discovered that it slowed my thinking and reaction times, even though I didn't drink much (I stopped altogether 40 years ago). I don't drive at all because I've never had the inclination to learn (it's not so important in Britain).

As much as we don't like the law when it's inconvenient, we all intuitively know law is about the good and not about punishment.

Civil law is, or should be, about protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty.

Grace says we won't be punished if we but ask forgiveness and repent of our sins, but that doesn't remove law, the law is still there.

The law is not of grace. It was given because of transgressions; and it was given so that sin might be revealed as it is - exceedingly sinful. By the law is the knowledge of sin.

That's why Paul called it the Law of the Spirit of Life, there's a law still at work, it's just empowering in function to do the law, instead of accusing in function which is ultimately unhelpful.

The word "law" has a semantic range; and it is used differently, in different contexts. The law of the Spirit of Life means, not a set of statutes (like the ten commandments), but the principle of the Spirit of Life.

Whether by the Administrative Head of Grace, or by the accusatory head of the curse, the one thing that never changed was the law itself.

Christians are dead to the law, because Christ (the embodiment of the law) was nailed to the cross, so that the list of commandments was taken out of the way.

Col. 2:13,14 (WEB)
13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

The only thing that changed was the administration of justice and mercy in relation to it.

This is absolutely incorrect.

Rom. 7:3-6
3 So then if, while the husband lives, she is joined to another man, she would be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

And such were some of you, still today with our flesh we sometimes struggle.

I certainly do. I am struggling with how to take my natural reactions and move them into the category of something I can control as easily as I control matter or space in my dreams. Even while in mid reaction. (Don't be the domino of evil, be the welded steel that cannot fall,).

Yes; but, the way of victory over our sin, is through relationship with the Lord, being led by the Holy Spirit, not by attempting to keep a set of rules, no matter how good those rules might be.

That's the matter and space I need full mastery of, myself, even though we are under Grace we need to see what law is, not to go back into ignorance of good and evil, but to go forward in our mastery over evil

The law was a slave tutor, to lead us to Christ; however, now that we are in Christ, we are freed from the law, to live to another - the resurrected Lord.

The law is the tree Adam and Eve ate from, the knowledge of good and evil.
.the healing is Grace, the healing is the Tree of Life.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave man a conscience. It was not about knowledge of a set of statutes.

The Tree of Life represents a few things, including wisdom (see the verses immediately below), but, primarily, it refers to the Lord himself, since he is THE LIFE.

Pro. 3:13,18
13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gets understanding.
...
18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her. Happy is everyone who retains her.

But the healing is not erasure. The law is still there, and it's still a tree with good fruit. It causes you to know what is good and what is evil, not to do it.

By the law is knowledge of sin; but, it also stirs up sin and gives no power to overcome it.

Life is what causes us to do it. Grace is the healing from the knowledge.

Wouldn't you think?

I appreciate that you are seeking to please the Lord and to do his will; but, I want to keep you from a world of frustration, which is what will happen if you live your life by trying to keep God's laws. Instead of that, seek the Lord in prayer, to cultivate fellowship with him and become more sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will always lead you to do what is good in his sight and you won't need the laws to tell you what to do, or not do.

If you go astray (as we all do sometimes), you will hear a word behind you, saying, "This way that you should walk.".

 

[Hazelelponi]

ou live your life by trying to keep God's laws.

How do you define law?

My definition is God's revealed will for man.

The knowledge of good and evil is the knowing of God's revealed will for man.

I used civil law as a point of reference to show there's nothing inherently wrong or punishing about law in and of itself.

What's punishing is when you rebel against it, that is sin and death.

The Spirit indwelling is still LAW in that it is revealing to us the whole of the law.

When the Spirit reveals to us our sin, we are required to repent of them. (See the instant deaths of those professed believers in Acts).

We should desire to know God's will for us and follow it. I would tend to think, we would be strengthened and encouraged by the Spirit to chase after both the knowing and the doing HIS revealed will for us, and not disappointed by knowing what that law is.