We’re the two witnesses in the past?

[Marty]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

 

[Marilyn C]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

So, how will the` law and prophets` -

`have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Now when they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city...` (Rev. 11: 6 - 8)

Also, Elijah was taken bodily & even Moses body is with God. (Jude 9) God has His purposes for them.

 

[ReverendRV]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

When it comes to having a unique pov regarding Eschatology, it's like fighting an up-hill battle to promote the thought. You're fighting the Establishment...

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Moses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I think it might be more along the lines of expectation. Just a thought.

John 1:
And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” Therefore, they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

Mark 9:
And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God having come in power.”And six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain alone by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments were shining intensely white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. And Elijah appeared to them along with Moses and they were conversing with Jesus.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Also as to why...

Well God has, in the past, pronounced things that no-one will believe to condemn. Things like "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" which places everyone else worshiping *other* gods and being condemned. Or how about John 3:18?

Anywho.

 

[armylngst]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

That is generally because there is a scripture that says all will die. Even Jesus died. So, the easiest understanding is that these two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah, and they will meet there death at this time, come back to life after three days, and return to heaven.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

No. Your interpretation says that they confirm it. There is a difference. This is not prophecy, it is Jesus telling a story, which may be true. Also, if it is a true story, it happened before Jesus told it. That would place the witnesses of Revelation, witnesses existing after 70AD, to some time before 70AD. (40 years+ before?)

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

Present tense. They HAVE Moses and the Prophets. Abraham is speaking in line with what Paul wrote when he said that God had ordained that through the foolishness of preaching, that men would come to know Him. So, they have Moses and the Prophets who have spoken/preached on behalf of God (Moses literally, the Law, figuratively).

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is part of the reason that a cessationist and others will say that miracles don't save anyone. So, even if someone rose from the dead (something the two witnesses do), it will not change anyone, for God ordained that by the foolishness of preaching...

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

This was a parable, though the story may be true. You seem to have completely missed what Jesus was talking about. Context is key, not eisegesis.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

That is not what Jesus is saying. He is saying that God uses the preached word to change a man, not miracles. How many people watched Jesus perform miracles, who then joyfully watched as Jesus was crucified? The miracles do not save. All a miracle is for, including bringing someone back to life, as performed by Elijah, Jesus, and Paul, is to validate the message of the messenger. Miracles were never intended to save someone. God provided the perfect example of how miracles do not change anyone in that Jesus had a crowd following Him after the feeding of the 5000 who wanted to make Him king. Wait, wasn't that Jesus's ultimate purpose in coming to Earth in the first place? He was to ultimately become king, though not during His first coming. (His first coming is as the suffering servant.) However, the only reason they sought to make Him king, was so they could get free food/free meals. The miracle meant everything to them in filling their bellies.It is God teaching us once again, that people are fickle.

 

[CrowCross]

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Why would God send them? Rev 11:7 says to provide a testimony.

 

[EarlyActs]

Before this question a person prob should work out whether the material is for its time or not. 'tachei' means very soon, shortly. It can sometimes mean the elapsed start to finish time.

If you think of the 1st cent., the two might simply be Peter and Paul, and their letters certainly kept going for some time.

 

[armylngst]

Before this question a person prob should work out whether the material is for its time or not. 'tachei' means very soon, shortly. It can sometimes mean the elapsed start to finish time.

If you think of the 1st cent., the two might simply be Peter and Paul, and their letters certainly kept going for some time.

The majority of verses I read that used the word meant the elapsed time from start to finish. Quickly, rapidly. When the angel told Peter to quickly put on his clothing, this was the word used. But how would you explain that Jesus had to die, but Elijah and Enoch do not. (Even though scripture says that all men will die?)

 

[Carbon]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

I believe the two witnesses refer to the size of the Christian church near the end of the age.

 

[EarlyActs]

The majority of verses I read that used the word meant the elapsed time from start to finish. Quickly, rapidly. When the angel told Peter to quickly put on his clothing, this was the word used. But how would you explain that Jesus had to die, but Elijah and Enoch do not. (Even though scripture says that all men will die?)

That time frame might mean from 'now' to when the thing is over. In English, shortly is often chosen because it is at least a way of combining these things.

Even so, hard to see 7 years as quickly, so we are back to stretching things, and then if you had 1000, it is even longer.

Apocalyptic literature is not an engineering manual. It is above all pastoral. The reader will see that Christ and his work on earth will prevail, in spite of all the confusion and loss. It helps to read others from the time period.

Sometimes the final day of judgement is called the hour. I find that the NT sees the final day as a very quick event, and we have no business trying to become experts in lots of details. Better to spend time resisting tyranny now than boasting about prophecy knowledge.

 

[armylngst]

I believe the two witnesses refer to the size of the Christian church near the end of the age.

Could you give scriptural references and context to support such a rendering?

"3 And I will give authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wishes to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wishes to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the authority to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; they also have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they wish.

7 And when they have finished their witness, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them and overcome them and kill them."

 

[Carbon]

Could you give scriptural references and context to support such a rendering?

"3 And I will give authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wishes to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wishes to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the authority to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; they also have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they wish.

7 And when they have finished their witness, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them and overcome them and kill them."

Before I do so, do you understand how this fits in with Amillennialism?

 

[armylngst]

Before I do so, do you understand how this fits in with Amillennialism?

That would be part of the support, which is why I mentioned that. I understand that amillennialism believes the millennium is now, so you don't have to go into all of that.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe the two witnesses refer to the size of the Christian church near the end of the age.

I see no reason as why the two witnesses can't be literal.

 

[Carbon]

I see no reason as why the two witnesses can't be literal.

Okay. ... I understand it as the size of the church in the trib.

 

[CrowCross]

Okay. ... I understand it as the size of the church in the trib.

I have no problem with that thought...How do the two witness in the trib correlate to the size of the church? (this is the first time I've heard of that correlation)

 

[Carbon]

I have no problem with that thought...How do the two witness in the trib correlate to the size of the church? (this is the first time I've heard of that correlation)

Without looking at my notes on this (I don't know where they are) I believe it is the size of the church near the end of the Tribulation. At the second coming, the church here on earth is compared to 2 witnesses, meaning small. As far as scripture references and such it would take me time to get it together. To debate it with you? I'm not interested in winning here, since both our views are Christian. For consideration? That's different. I could probably find some time later.

 

[armylngst]

I see no reason as why the two witnesses can't be literal.

Zechariah 4 seems to say that these are two people. "11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive [e]branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he spoke to me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two [f]anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of all the earth.”"

There are seven lampstands, which the prophecy says are the eyes of Yahweh going to and fro throughout the earth. Each lampstand has an olive tree on the left, and on the right. Taken with Revelation 11, it would seem that these two witnesses are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of all the earth. The final fulfillment.

Since today it is possible for this prophecy to be fulfilled literally, is there any reason to have to consider it symbolically? With the proliferation of technology, everyone in the world could learn about the death of the most hated people in the world (there will be no love loss for these witnesses) within minutes. It doesn't even have to be 3 1/2 days.

With a future fulfillment point of view, many of the prophecies given have entered the realm of the possibility of a literal fulfillment. (Taking symbolic language into account. I mean, Godzilla doesn't literally come out of the abyss to destroy Tokyo...er I mean Jerusalem. )

 

[Wordsmith]

When it comes to having a unique pov regarding Eschatology, it's like fighting an up-hill battle to promote the thought. You're fighting the Establishment...

Not really much different than discussing other doctrines. Everyone is entrenched and usually unmovable. I have been on different debate forums since 2014 and it is a rare thing when anyone changes their mind on any topic. What else is to be expected since we are all right? (In our own minds).