Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Kermos]

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "when in the day that you eat" - the "when" is promissory
   NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
   SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating of the tree, with the word "when"/"for"/"that" in Genesis 2:17
   AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
   SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
   AND the firm fact is established
   THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
2. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God - Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
   1. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free-will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use freewill in order to perform evil against God
      COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adam's will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
   2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is very good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
      AND no person can thwart God's Purpose (Job 42:2)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was very good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
   3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, when in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he perceived about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
   4. An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)
      WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)
      YET "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18)
      AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)
      NOTE in "it was very good", the word "it" is grammatically a third person singular thus referring to the entirety of creation being constructed well (good) on course with God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
      YET the word "it" is not third person plural in "it was very good" as in "they were very good" of which a third person plural is required here in order to refer to an individual such as Adam or the Devil the Serpent
      AND the Word of God specifically excludes Adam from being good with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
      SO the spirit of antichrist preaches that Adam with all mankind as good for any amount of time thus nullifying the need for the Savior
      BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good
      BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein
      AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein
      AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is "very good"
      SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is "very good"
      IN other words, if Adam was inherently good, then he could not have eaten from the tree the knowledge of good and evil
      BECAUSE it would have been impossible for an inherently good Adam to disobey God's command of not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SINCE an inherently good Adam would have been the embodiment of obedience of God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      AND an inherently good Adam would have unquestionably refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil without him having the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
      THEREFORE an inherently good Adam would have done the opposite of good by eating of the tree the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6)
      SO an inherently good Adam would have unavoidably avoided eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
      YET there is none who does good, there is not even one (Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:12)
      SO there was no inherently good Adam
   5. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ, that is, the Assembly of God
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
      THEREFORE God exclusively causes individuals to join into the Assembly of God.

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a christcentered.community.forum website link destination),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

 

[Josheb]

Wall of text.

 

[Kermos]

Wall of text.

So writes Josheb, the one who fails to answer the succinct question in the title of this thread, which is:

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?
​

Free-willians write things like "God Himself implicitly stated Adam was good", yet such free-willians must nullify in their hearts the very Word of God "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18).

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[fastfredy0]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

Unfortunately, the thread does not define "free will" so the thread will go off on all sorts of tangents.

"Free Will" is that which can do and does, in relation to God and others, whatever it pleases, uninhibited by any law or any authority.

It is logically impossible for a creature (created being) to "program" his own will. Thus, the “will” is never a cause; it is the effect as all created things are the effect of the Almighty First Cause. So Adam's propensity to do "X" or "Y" was programmed so to speak by his Creator as a computer runs per the specifications of a programmer.

Again, "Free Will" is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused; otherwise, the determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible. (human author unknown)

back to chewing my

 

[makesends]

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<]

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

You have not established what you mean by free will.
Your thesis assumes, and does not demonstrate, that free will and the intent of God are mutually exclusive.

 

[fastfredy0]

You have not established what you mean by free will.

I've found most people discussing FREE WILL will either refuse to define it or define Free Will in inexact terms like: Free Will is the ability to choose. *sigh*

 

[Ghada]

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

Whenever I see someone talking about 'carefully' presenting something as though it were Bible, then the red flag is it isn't Bible.

The following was an oh-so carefully crafted scholarship in sophistry, to try and make the Bible say something, that God never says.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

If it's Bible, the only care we need is to quote it accurately. And that is from one or two verses saying the same thing.

That in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

We always know unbiblical teaching by the exhausting amount of words used to try and make one simple point. Afterall, if it were bible, then we just simply quote it.

Bible teaching is only made hard by changing the Bible into something confusing that makes no sense. Bible teaching is simple: just read enough of the Bible to quote it, so that the Bible teaches itself.

There is no verse in the Bible saying man does not have free will, hence the necessity of much bogus study to direct people's attention from that one simple fact.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Many people ever learn how to change the Bible, because they don't want to know the truth of the Bible in the first place.

I just thank God I've learned I don't have to go through such exhaustion, and just go straight to the very beginning.

There is no verse saying man does not have free will, but there are verses saying we may do things freely, just like God:

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Eating freely is according to one's own free will. It's the same freedom of God given to them created in His image.

And of course, as if that were not enough, the Bible plainly says man has free will:

Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

As in all false teachings of unbelievers in the Bible, it helps to determine the cause for the obvious lie. In this case, rejecting personal free will is to reject personal responsibility for what we willingly do. It's just another excuse for willingly sinning against God, as though no man willingly does anything of his own choice.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Afterall, if we have no free will nor say in the matter of our deeds, then who is God to judge and condemn us? That would be unjust. It would also be malicious to also make man without free will, and then condemn us for only doing what we were made to do in the first place.

The saying, "It's not my fault, because God made me that way..." Would be true without being made with freewill to choose what to do or not to do. (The worst sort are those who take so headachingly long to say it, without just saying it already)

The only one making people without free will to choose what to do or not, is the god of this world, that allows no free will whatsoever for his slaves to sin.

Those who preach the god of no free will, are obviously not teaching the true God of the Bible, since He desires man to offer up freewill worship and service freely by love, and not just by law of commandment.

Now it's certainly true that no man has freedom of will to disobey God, and also remain alive to God forever. That's the false promise and hope of abusing free will to become as gods in our own right, power, and will.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

It's also a primer for predeterminism of puffed up little lambs, thinking they were with the Lamb and chosen before the world ever began.

Man with no free will is just another pagan ideology inserted into Christianity. It's the pagan deterministic fate of the gods.

The beginning purpose of God's revelation to all men in the Bible, is that the true God and Creator, creates all men and women in His image with freedom of will to choose for themselves, what they will do nor not do in this life. It destroys the whole pagan lie that some are born to rule and others are born to be slaves.

(Possibly worse yet, it's also unamerican. )

 

[Mr GLee]

Free will is the created will of God He did not create mankind without a will or desire . Rain dead . He subjected his will to the leter of the law "death" .Thou shall not . . . or you are dead and will never rise to new life. .

His will is the food the disciples knew not of. Jesus in efect said . My daily bread is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. i

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Job 23:12Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Again I would offer our daily bread the unseen wil of God working with those yoked with His love.or called hidden Mana to Revelation 2:17

Adam and Eve ate the bread of a stranger the father of lies called the strange woman false apostles false prophets bringing oral traditions of dying mankind making the living word of God no no efect

Eighth times in Proverbs as parables it is emphasized don't eat her food as words

Proverbs 2:16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; ( false prophecy)

A beautiful parable below the opposite of the strange woman describing the wife of Christ the church

Reminds me of us husbands like myself to strengthen the bride Husbands represent the unseen head Christ and women the church. absentee husbands cannot look for the mutual work of two.

The perfect wife of Christ. .

Proverb 31:10-31C Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.( Heaven) She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. Her husband (Christ) is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

 

[fastfredy0]

Afterall, if we have no free will nor say in the matter of our deeds, then who is God to judge and condemn us? That would be unjust. It would also be malicious to also make man without free will, and then condemn us for only doing what we were made to do in the first place.

You define JUSTICE in human terms. Using your logic God is unjust because:

• He gave everyone a "sin nature" (saddled everyone with Adam's transgression)
• Some people he made blind, sickly, deaf
• etc., etc.

Since your premise that God must be just by your definition of justice obviously falls short when we look at other circumstances, your conclusion about man having Free Will falls apart.

Aside: God defines justice. Anything He does is just by definition. If He sends people to hell because they never heard of Christ even though knowing Christ is a condition of salvation; that is just. (John 3:18)

God is the potter, you are the clay that He molds to suit His purpose which is just by definition.

Aside: You didn't define Free Will per most people who support the concept

 

[CrowCross]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

Yes.

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Now, I don't know you or your opinion on the topic....but, anyone who post like your quote above....that is, if you disagree with me then you have added to the Bible...is severly deluded.

 

[Ghada]

You define JUSTICE in human terms.

No. It's doesn't take Plato's Republic to know what justice and injustice is.

God defines justice as condemning and executing the guilty:

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

And injustice as condemning and executing the guiltless and the innocent:

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person.

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Which is how Jesus was falsely condemned and unjustly crucified on a cross.

Using your logic God is unjust because:

• He gave everyone a "sin nature" (saddled everyone with Adam's transgression)
• Some people he made blind, sickly, deaf
• etc., etc.

Correct, which is some people changing God's judgment from just and righteous, to unjust and unrighteous, in order lie about God making people sinners, and do it just to condemn and execute them.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

It is indeed injustice to condemn babes as sinful, that have not done anything at all, much less done evil worthy of death and execution.

You're preaching a god that makes creatures sinful on earth, and then aborts them from earth for being sinful.

The god you preach and claim for yourself is obviously the unjust and unrighteous god of this world.

And the cause for all unrepented sinners ever preach the doctrine of the devil, is always the same: in order to justify your continued sinning with the world, by blaming it on your god that makes you with a sin nature. And so also blaming your sinful works on your natural body, that has your god's sin nature in it's 'cells, tissues, and plasma' etc., etc.

Since your premise that God must be just by your definition of justice obviously falls short when we look at other circumstances, your conclusion about man having Free Will falls apart.

Since I have quoted the Bible of man having freewill to make freewill offerings to the Lord, then I don't argue with unbelievers in God's own words.

Neither do I need decipher your mangled sophistry to justify it.

Aside: God defines justice. Anything He does is just by definition.

See above for His definition of justice and injustice, and how it applies to them doing good or evil, as well as them not doing any works at all in the womb and coming from the womb.

That is the justice of God judging us all by our works, which by His own definition be applied to any without any works at all to judge, in the womb and coming from the womb.

If He sends people to hell because they never heard of Christ

In the Bible, People are not sent to hell because of not hearing the word of God preached. Wicked people are judged by their wicked works in life, to end in hell after the grave.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This is why them not hearing are still condemned by their evil works, and them not hearing nor having works, are not judged at all.

even though knowing Christ is a condition of salvation; that is just. (John 3:18)

True. And knowing Christ is by doing the word, and not just hearing only.

He that saith, I know him, and is not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Ghada]

God is the potter, you are the clay that He molds to suit His purpose which is just by definition.

The great lie of your god and doctrine is the same old tired lie of the serpent: that God is the one making the lives of unjust men and women evil.

The great evilness of your lie against the love of the living God, is that He is the one purposing some people to live evil.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And you also accuse that God of haply destroy them in judgment, since he creates all things for His own pleasure.

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Your god's like also includes the self-contradicting malice of God the Creator to command them to repent, that cannot possibly repent, since they are only doing the evil that God is purposely making them to do.

That of course is the god of this world, that commands and tempts all sons to repent of doing good. Your god so hates the world, that he purposes to ,make all men evil to their own destruction, at the hands of the true and righteous Judge:

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

You are preaching for your god with malice against the true God, by making Him to do the same as Balaam.

As another Balaam of today, you preach the error that it is God Himself who purposely has people to transgress His law and covenant of Christ, that they might be destroyed in wrath.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

The predestining doctrine not only teaches the inevitability of pagan fate, but also that God is purposely making it inevitable for some souls to do good and live, and purposely makes other souls to do evil and perish.

Your god of this world is the only one that purposely shapes any life of any soul with disobedience and trasngression unto destruction.

Your god and doctrine was that of pagans, and now is also that of unrepented malicious sinners that name the name of Christ.

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things,

 

[Ghada]

God is the potter, you are the clay that He molds to suit His purpose which is just by definition.

The clay that he molds is the natural body only.

How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.

Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

They are called earthen vessels made for the soul to dwell in on earth. They are only called vessels unto honor or wrath by the deeds done with our bodies.

But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

This proves two things from the Bible:

The body is the work of the Lord's hand from clay, which is neither sinful nor righteous in nature. Even as all flesh is grass.

If it pertained to the soul, then it declares all men are believing sons of the Father, with obedient lives worked by His hand.

God is the potter, you are the clay that He molds to suit His purpose which is just by definition.

The heart and spirit of a man is never called clay in the Bible. So, according to the Bible, you now also preach natural religion of carnal minded sinners: You are teaching the soul of man is the clay mortal body. The JWs teach it for the sole purpose of doing away

Unless you want to correct your bible with God's Bible, and teach the the clay molded by God is the body only, not the soul of man created in His image.

In any case, you gospel of the god of this world having power to create souls in his own sinful image, is idolatry and condemnation of yourself. Since that is the god you claim for your own and continue sinning with as his child.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

 

[Ghada]

Aside: You didn't define Free Will per most people who support the concept

Thank you. That's because I let God define His own doctrine.

That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It's always easy to teach the Bible, when we let the Bible teach itself.

And neither do you define determinism the same as others. I've never heard it done so maliciously.

It has helped me to more perfectly understand the great error of it.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

 

[Ghada]

You define JUSTICE in human terms.

Predetermists define justice in wicked terms.

The wicked god that makes wicked people to do wickedly, for the sole purpose to destroy them with the wicked.

I'd say that's fits the justice of Satan perfectly.

And then having people wickedly preach it? Now that's guile indeed.

 

[Josh II]

So writes Josheb, the one who fails to answer the succinct question in the title of this thread,

Because I don't do wall-of-text ops.

which is:

​

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

Depends on how "free will" is defined and this question has been asked and answered ad nauseam.

The original post contains the Truth

No, it does not. In point of fact the first three statements in the op are factually incorrect.

(John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Again, depending on how "free will" is defined, scripture proves op incorrect and what truths are posted therein are poorly reasoned but I'm betting you lack the ability to respectfully discuss the errors in the op and self-correct them (beginning with the wall of text).



To begin with, the word "free" is defined as "not under the control, power, or dictating influence of another; able to act as one wishes; unfettered; autonomous." Using that definition, the normal, ordinary definition of the word, no one has ever been autonomous except God. All creatures have their origin and existence dependent on the Creator. All creatures are also limited, confined, and/or controlled by a variety of conditions inherent in creation. Time and space, for example, are two of the most basic and limiting on humanity. No human, not even the pre-disobedient Adam and Eve, could transcend the limits of time and space. They were not volitionally autonomous in either arena.

But that is not how scripture uses the term "free will." Scripture uses the term simply to mean humans have an ability to choose within the God-made limitations in which they live. Take, for example, what Paul wrote about an unbeliever in his letter to the saints in Corinthian.

1 Corinthians 7:12
But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.

Pagan, unregenerate, non-believers have the liberty to consent to something. There may be one hundred million gazillion things to which they cannot consent, but in this one matter they are "free" or have the volitional agency to consent. Logically speaking, if the sin-corrupted, unregenerate, non-believer has this ability then Adam had some modicum of volitional agency as well. To suggest and then argue lacked what this pagan possessed places an onus on the one making that claim, not me. Adam was not free in the sense that he was autonomous from God but that does not preclude him from any and all volitional agency. Adam had the liberty to choose: eat or do not eat. Within that liberty and limitation, he choose poorly.

I will also suggest that much of the debate over volitional agency is misguided because scripture places an emphasis on conduct, not volition. Of course, the two are inseparable in most cases because people do not ordinarily choose and then act different from their choosing. There are exceptions, but they are the exceptions, not the norm.





This op does not make that case. This op is a wall of text and within that wall of text scripture is mishandled and the arguments poorly reasoned. It's a bad op. I find that to be the case with both your ops.

 

[Arial]

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "when in the day that you eat" - the "when" is promissory
   NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
   SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating of the tree, with the word "when"/"for"/"that" in Genesis 2:17
   AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
   SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
   AND the firm fact is established
   THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
2. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God - Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
   1. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free-will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use freewill in order to perform evil against God
      COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adam's will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)

I did not even bother to read all of that because it became obvious not one quarter down the page that the poster is attempting to talk about something he knows nothing about. You do not even know what Scripture means that we are made in the image and likeness of God. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to even figure out what you do think it mean. Near as I can guess, you somehow think that means we are exactly like God when the very words "image and likeness" indicates that we are somewhat an analogy of Him in many ways and exactly like Him in no ways.You present it as though He created us a little gods.

God did not give His will to His creature. He created a being who has a will as He does, but man's will is dependant upon and subject to His will. Man is obligated to always be subjected to and obedient to God's will. God makes choices and His creature man is also a being who makes choices. But man is obligated by his Creator and the one whose likeness he bears, to always be obedient to God. Adam and Eve had the ability to obey or disobey. They disobeyed, suffered the promised consequences, as do all Adam's progeny. We cannot so much as get near the tree of life, but by God's grace to make a way through Christ.

 

[Ghada]

To begin with, the word "free" is defined as "not under the control, power, or dictating influence of another; able to act as one wishes; unfettered; autonomous." Using that definition, the normal, ordinary definition of the word, no one has ever been autonomous except God.

I'd like to interject for a moment.

Being made in God's image means having power to be free and 'autonomous' as God, pertaining to choosing what to do or not in this life.

Lucifer was the first created being of God that rebelled freely against His rule, and became god unto himself. And he was immediately judged and cast down as the first false god in heaven, and then on earth. That's why God acknowledges him as the god of this world.

He made the same promise of free rebellion to man, so as to freely choose to disobey God and become like the angels that sinned, as gods themselves knowing how to do evil as well as good.

The fact of everlasting destruction as wandering stars, proves the unrepentant wicked forever being gods apart from God and His life and light and fellowship.
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The torment of everlasting destruction in the lake of fire is complete aloneness forever. Such is the shame and condemnation of being false gods.

All creatures have their origin and existence dependent on the Creator.

Being alive or not, yes. But not necessarily dependent on God for how we live.

All are dependent on God for how long we live on earth, but only those trusting in Him are dependent on Him to live well as Jesus.

But that is not how scripture uses the term "free will." Scripture uses the term simply to mean humans have an ability to choose within the God-made limitations in which they live.

Physically yes. Spiritually no. That's what being separated from God by our iniquities is all about.

I will also suggest that much of the debate over volitional agency is misguided because scripture places an emphasis on conduct, not volition.Of course, the two are inseparable in most cases because people do not ordinarily choose and then act different from their choosing. There are exceptions, but they are the exceptions, not the norm.

Ok, sorry. I did not read down far enough. You wouldn't suggest free will choosing and actions can never be indepenet of God and His will.

But only dependent on the longsuffering mercy of God and will to repent and be saved, before the grave.

This op does not make that case.

True. And with all such ops, the goal is not the truth of the Bible, but justifying oneself in the choice of life they live.

It's just the old classic childishness: "It's not my fault God made me this way."

This op is a wall of text and within that wall of text scripture is mishandled and the arguments poorly reasoned.

Now this is unique, and I like it very much. I wondered what wall of text means, and you seem to say that people come up with their own doctrinal wall of words, that they hide behind and shield themselves with. And then within their own little walled-off doctrinal world, they write a whole bunch of stuff corrupting the Bible to justify it??

That's a great way of putting it. Thanks much. I'll remember it. An addendum to that policy, is how division is made in the churches of God. Once church gets some special little doctrine and/or rule for themselves, that separates them from the common body of Christ. Some are benign enough, while others become cults that condemn all others not believing and obeying their own little cult doctrine and rule.

Zealot holiness Pentecostals come to mind. Sabbath commanders too.

 

[Josh II]

I'd like to interject for a moment.

Being made in God's image means having power to be free and 'autonomous' as God, pertaining to choosing what to do or not in this life.

That is incorrect.

God is the Creator of all that was made. We are the creature, we are that which was made. God is almighty; we are not. God created time and space and is therefore not limited by either but we humans live solely within time and space and cannot do anything to escape those limitations. Furthermore, the only reason we draw breath sufficient to write and read these posts is solely because God permits it. The moment God decides to remove that grace you'll find out exactly how dependent and how not autonomous you are. There are many, many limitations on human volition and that is all the more so on the sin-enslaved human volition.

We are NOT as autonomous as God.

 

[Josh II]

Lucifer was the first created......

Lucifer is irrelevant. This op is about Adam, not anyone else.