Unconditional Election

[Carbon]

Exactly.

You don’t really believe that, do you?

 

[Carbon]

We debated this matter at great length. Sanctification is monergistic in the beginning, but because the purpose of salvation is for us to perform works God already planned for us to perform, one of which is maintaining a clean disposition, sanctification becomes Spirit inspired and empowered synergism after regeneration/conversion. Two weeks after tfter that debate THIS OP was posted in which multiple noted Calvinists were quoted saying the exact position I'd asserted in our debate. The conclusion of that op states,

Conclusion​

"So what do we see in this short survey of Reformed theologians. For starters, we do not see the exact language of monergism or synergism applied to sanctification.​

Second, we see that, given the right qualifications, either term could be used with merit. “Monergism” can work because sanctification is God’s gift, his supernatural work in us. “Synergism” can also work because because we cooperate with God in sanctification and actively make an effort to grow in godliness.​

Third, we see in this Reformed survey the need to be careful with our words. For example, “passive” can describe our role in sanctification, but only if we also say there is a sense in which we are active. Likewise, we can use the language of cooperation as long as we understand that sanctification does not depend ultimately on us.​

And if all this is confusing, you can simply say: we work out our sanctification as God works in us (Phil. 2:12-12). Those are the two truths we must protect: the gift of God in sanctification and the activity of man. We pursue the gift, is how John Webster puts it. I act the miracle, is Piper’s phrase. Both are saying the same thing: God sanctifies us and we also sanctify ourselves. With the right qualifications and definitions, I believe Calvin, Turretin, A Brakel, Hodge, Bavinck, and Berkhof would heartily agree."​

What Piper, Calvin, Turretin, Brakel, Hodge, and Berkhof agree upon is exactly what I'd previously posted.

Then.....

I was invited to participate in THIS OP, which discussed sanctification based on a book of comparative theology. During that discussion the fact each of the five theologians contributing to that book defined sanctification differently was observed and it was the Calvinist Sinclair Ferguson who used the same definition with which I identify. It was the Lutheran Gerhard Forde's view (with some hesitancy) with you identified at that time. In other words, according to your own report, your view of sanctification is Lutheran, not Calvinist, and my view has been consistent with Calvinism (and many noted Calvinists) since the beginning of these discussions. The reasons for my disagreement with Forde can be found HERE.

So I am not sure why my name was mentioned in this thread to say we have agreement because I changed my views.

If we agree then it is because you changed your mind, not the other way around. But, if you have become more Calvinist/Sinclairian and less Fordean then I am delighted to read that .

Well I’m still trying to work with you so you will see the truth in this matter.

 

[Carbon]

But it is all monergistic.

But some think it’s starts monergistic, then after a while the training wheeles come off, this is when God gives us a little glory in our salvation. We get to help.

Gee, I wonder if our free will had something to do with our salvation initially? Wait. Some say monergistic to start, so probably not

 

[Arial]

But some think it’s starts monergistic, then after a while the training wheeles come off, this is when God gives us a little glory in our salvation. We get to help.

Gee, I wonder if our free will had something to do with our salvation initially? Wait. Some say monergistic to start, so probably not

Seeing as how it has nothing to do with our glory, that would be wrong.

The way I see it, part of our being made in the image and likeness of God is that we are a created being that does things. We have a mind that reasons and acts from that reason. We are a volitional creature in that we have a will and make choices. That is how God created us to be. And to clarify my use of the word volitional, it is not a statement of free will, but rather a contrast to being a robot or puppet. And we are a moral agent as opposed to the animal kingdom which is instinctual and those instincts also given by God. Design, design, design.

As a creature who does things--- eats, sleeps, works, drives, climbs, thinks etc, there is a doing the things of or in the sanctification process by us. But that is not synergism in the sense that we are the origin of this doing. We are just the doers. God is not doing the doing. It is the same with the faith that saves. It isn't in us until God puts it in us as a gift. We are incapable of generating that kind of faith from within ourselves. But when God gives it to us, it is truly us who truly believe.

 

[Alive]

I like to think in terms of our abilities as wonderfully made humans is that the fall made for an inability for function ‘Godward’, but maintaining much ability ‘earthward’.
Conclusion: He had to make a change. One we had zero power to enact.

 

[Carbon]

Seeing as how it has nothing to do with our glory, that would be wrong.

The way I see it, part of our being made in the image and likeness of God is that we are a created being that does things. We have a mind that reasons and acts from that reason. We are a volitional creature in that we have a will and make choices. That is how God created us to be. And to clarify my use of the word volitional, it is not a statement of free will, but rather a contrast to being a robot or puppet. And we are a moral agent as opposed to the animal kingdom which is instinctual and those instincts also given by God. Design, design, design.

As a creature who does things--- eats, sleeps, works, drives, climbs, thinks etc, there is a doing the things of or in the sanctification process by us. But that is not synergism in the sense that we are the origin of this doing. We are just the doers. God is not doing the doing. It is the same with the faith that saves. It isn't in us until God puts it in us as a gift. We are incapable of generating that kind of faith from within ourselves. But when God gives it to us, it is truly us who truly believe.

Yes, we do because it is who we are. The more conformed to the image of Christ we become, by God, the more we do. Like Forde said. it's getting used to our sanctification.

 

[Carbon]

@Arial I have sidetracked your thread quite enough, I'm sorry. I will take the discussion of sanctification to the proper thread.

 

[Arial]

@Arial I have sidetracked your thread quite enough, I'm sorry. I will take the discussion of sanctification to the proper thread.

No problem. I hadn't even noticed as the issue came up kind of automatically with the U.

 

[Arial]

Yes, we do because it is who we are. The more conformed to the image of Christ we become, by God, the more we do. Like Forde said. it's getting used to our sanctification.

Right. We don't know what we don't know until we know it. And that takes time and it is His word that instructs us in righteousness. But He doesn't read for us. And reading isn't a matter of synergism, it is how we are made. It is God who throws light on what we read, gives understanding in our mind and from there it enters into our heart.

 

[Josheb]

So, once we get the hang of it, God lets us help so we work together.

Exactly.

You don’t really believe that, do you?

Is it being suggested I lied, or do not know my own mind? Yes, I do believe what I posted..... BUT I will clarify it because Post 60 could be read to say the regenerate help the almighty God who God needs no help from us. I do not believe that, but given all the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many posts we have exchanged it is incomprehensible anything I might ever post would be read in contradiction to the accumulated content of my posts. What then does God let us help when working together? Our post-regenerative, post-conversion sanctification(!)

Salvation and all of its constituent elements is monergistic.

The purpose of our salvation is to do works God had already planned for us to perform prior to our salvation. One of those works is to present our members as slaves to righteousness (Rom. 6:19), which results in sanctification. That is a duty the text lays on us, not one it attributes to God (even though it is He who is at work in us to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose - Php. 2:13). Another is abstaining from sexual immorality, because each of us knows how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion (1 Thes. 4:3-4). We have everything we need to live a godly life and participate in the divine nature, but we must add to that.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is a matter of stewardship. We have nothing that was not given to us. Once given we are to be responsible and accountable (lest we then be culpable ). Of whom much is given, much is expected.

But some think it’s starts monergistic, then after a while the training wheeles come off, this is when God gives us a little glory in our salvation.

No one here believes that. The "training wheels" analogy is a straw man that is completely disingenuous given....

Second, we see that, given the right qualifications, either term could be used with merit. "Monergism" can work because sanctification is God’s gift, his supernatural work in us. "Synergism" can also work because we cooperate with God in sanctification and actively make an effort to grow in godliness............. we can use the language of cooperation as long as we understand that sanctification does not depend ultimately on us. And if all this is confusing, you can simply say: we work out our sanctification as God works in us (Phil. 2:12-12). Those are the two truths we must protect: the gift of God in sanctification and the activity of man.

(emphasis mine)

Why it is thought any Reformed person is saying anything different is all on you.

We get to help.

And if that was ever construed to say we help God then the error, again, was/is all yours. God does not need to be sanctified. Neither does God need any help sanctifying those He has already sanctified. That does not prevent Him from prescribing to us acts resulting in sanctification and expecting our obedience. It is irrational to imply "I, @Carbon, can say 'we cooperate with God in sanctification," and be correct but no one else can do so."

We work our sanctification as God works in us, the already sanctified.

Well I’m still trying to work with you so you will see the truth in this matter.

Thank you for your time but that is a condescending statement, and past experience has proven once comments like that are posted the discussion is functionally over.

 

[Carbon]

Exactly.

Okay, thanks for your opinion.

Is it being suggested I lied, or do not know my own mind?

Of course not. I would never think you a liar. So you can relax there if you want to.

We work our sanctification as God works in us, the already sanctified.

Scripture?

Thank you for your time but that is a condescending statement, and past experience has proven once comments like that are posted the discussion is functionally over.

Josheb, we are both believers. Is it wrong to joke around and have a little fun? Maybe I am wrong but it seems Sanctification is a difficult subject for you to discuss.

 

[Eleanor]

Exactly.
Is it being suggested I lied, or do not know my own mind? Yes, I do believe what I posted..... BUT I will clarify it because Post 60 could be read to say the regenerate help the almighty God who God needs no help from us. I do not believe that, but given all the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many posts we have exchanged it is incomprehensible anything I might ever post would be read in contradiction to the accumulated content of my posts. What then does God let us help when working together? Our post-regenerative, post-conversion sanctification(!)
Salvation and all of its constituent elements is monergistic.
The purpose of our salvation is to do works God had already planned for us to perform prior to our salvation. One of those works is to present our members as slaves to righteousness (Rom. 6:19), which results in sanctification. That is a duty the text lays on us, not one it attributes to God (even though it is He who is at work in us to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose - Php. 2:13). Another is abstaining from sexual immorality, because each of us knows how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion (1 Thes. 4:3-4). We have everything we need to live a godly life and participate in the divine nature, but we must add to that.
2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
It is a matter of stewardship. We have nothing that was not given to us. Once given we are to be responsible and accountable (lest we then be culpable ). Of whom much is given, much is expected.
No one here believes that. The "training wheels" analogy is a straw man that is completely disingenuous given....
(emphasis mine)

And if that was ever construed to say we help God then the error, again, was/is all yours. God does not need to be sanctified. Neither does God need any help sanctifying those He has already sanctified. That does not prevent Him from prescribing to us acts resulting in sanctification and expecting our obedience. It is irrational to imply "I, @Carbon, can say 'we cooperate with God in sanctification," and be correct but no one else can do so."
We work our sanctification as God works in us, the already sanctified.

The already justified (forensic righteousness), to be sanctified (actual righteousness) through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:19).